We Won!!! 12 day for Xmas Deal is Off!!!!

kippy

parsi wrote: »

As jimmmy would say - I heard it in the pub: one of my buddies is a leading member of ISME and he showed me the tax that he wasn't paying etc etc etc

However the Revenue kindly publish lists of defaulters:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/index.html

I dont understand what its got to do with the current debate........
Are all on that list members of said groups?

Who is jimmy btw? Jimmy Magee?

Dammo

Everyone knows that the PS workers will just do less work now. Productivity will suffer and in the long run we'll be no better off. Govt's handling of this whole affair is a joke. Spin and fudge from start to finish.
Anyone who thinks the public v private "debate" hasn't been engineered by them is deluded. Talk of a victory sounds very hollow.

parsi

kippy wrote: »

I dont understand what its got to do with the current debate........
Are all on that list members of said groups?

Who is jimmy btw? Jimmy Magee?

:rolleyes:

seangal

CityCentreMan wrote: »

Yes there are winners. The ordinary people of Ireland are the winners!!

The people of Ireland voiced their opinions by email, by phone to their TD's and ministers, thru the media and thru channels such as this.

This is the first time that our government have stood up to the public Sector Unions and have listened to what the ordinary people want.

We have shown clearly that we will not stand to be bullied by by the PS Unions who have never been stood up to before. This is a turning point!

The worm turns - Power to the people!

We need some proper government and hopefully the guys in Leinster House will now be emboldened to stand up against vested interests and to govern as they are supposed to do.

Tell that to the people who are being turned away from Mullingar A&E
The unions offered to put all public sector employees on a 4 day week for 3 week and you think that by refusing it that is a win
The government will proceed with a pay cut now with no agreement and this will lead to an all out strike and you see that as a win
There are people on here who say they should let 30000 PS staff go but now we are told the PS can't cope with the staff taking 12 day unpaid

seangal

going by the people that call this a win it looks like they will be voting FF back in to power
Well done lads

Nody

seangal wrote: »

going by the people that call this a win it looks like they will be voting FF back in to power
Well done lads

Considering the poison pills they have spread through out the budgets etc. I could seriously consider to vote for FF the first time simply to let them deal with the mess they created.

BlackNinja

Practically all the Public Sector workers here in my office(including me) would rather a pay cut than that 12 days bull. The Unions are making it worse for us all.

kippy

BlackNinja wrote: »

Practically all the Public Sector workers here in my office(including me) would rather a pay cut than that 12 days bull. The Unions are making it worse for us all.

Why so,
This is intriguing me........

BlackNinja

kippy wrote: »

Why so,
This is intriguing me........

Well, at least a pay cut is not going to affect services, it will be tiered to match payscales (so ideally higher paid pay more) and people won't hate us as much.

I'm on €28k after 4 years service, husband out of work and work as frontline staff in a busy section. I want people to stop taking it out on me so if a pay cut helps, then wonderful!

Dirk Gently

I really hope people can see the differance between making neccessary hard decisions and scapegoating easy targets to blame for the eonomic reality we find ourselves in.

It sadden me to see people talk of victory. ok cuts are neccessary but by focusing your energy on public service workers you're playing straight into the governments hands. They'll be sitting back enjoying how workers are blaming other workers for all the countrys problems. standard divide and rule and people fall for it every time.

For those of you on a witch hunt against public pay don't lose sight of the fact that government, lack of regulation, greed in the banking and building sectors and an unsustinable credit economy caused this mess. I'd hate to see people lose sight of who is responsible for all this in their drunken persuit of scapegoats.

by the way I'm a private sector worker with a bigger more stressful workload and a much smaller pay slip at the end of very week. (a lot of it opportunistist I have to say from my employer). I direct no blame at the average public worker for this though. I direct all my blame at government, their credit economy and unregulated lenders and speculators.

The impression I get from a lot of people though is that in their mind public workers are the cause of all our problems. Thats not the case, they are simply another symptom, not the cause. Have a little dignity and stop talking of victory like we just fixed the cause, we're only relieving symptoms.

Cuchulain

CityCentreMan wrote: »

We Won!!! 12 day for Xmas Deal is Off!!!!

Power to the people!!!

Please ban this troll. Look at all the hate threads this complete moron has started. We need more mods on here.

BlackNinja

clown bag wrote: »

. ok cuts are neccessary but by focusing your energy on public service workers you're playing straight into the governments hands. They'll be sitting back enjoying how workers are blaming other workers for all the countrys problems. standard divide and rule and people fall for it every time.

Well said

I direct no blame at the average public worker for this though. I direct all my blame at government, their credit economy and unregulated lenders and speculators.

Thank you:)

Flamed Diving

Guess who works for the PS?

Deadalus

BlackNinja wrote: »

Well, at least a pay cut is not going to affect services, it will be tiered to match payscales (so ideally higher paid pay more) and people won't hate us as much.

I'm on €28k after 4 years service, husband out of work and work as frontline staff in a busy section. I want people to stop taking it out on me so if a pay cut helps, then wonderful!

+1

I am a public sectore worker on 25300 and a pay cut would be better than 12 days unpaid leave. They need to look at the top end and work down from there. General across the Board cut is crazy considering the differences in pay scales in the PS.

I voted against the strike but appartently just because my job happens to be in the public service I have been villified. I havn't quite figured out why that specifically is or what it is I have done but I guess I must deserve it. I think it would be prudent for public servants to start wearing some sort of arm band so that we are more easily identifyable on the street. That way the enraged private sector workers can shout abuse at us on the street instead of just posting it on Boards.

BlackNinja

Deadalus wrote: »

+1

I am a public sectore worker on 25300 and a pay cut would be better than 12 days unpaid leave. They need to look at the top end and work down from there. General across the Board cut is crazy considering the differences in pay scales in the PS.

I voted against the strike but appartently just because my job happens to be in the public service I have been villified. I havn't quite figured out why that specifically is or what it is I have done but I guess I must deserve it. I think it would be prudent for public servants to start wearing some sort of arm band so that we are more easily identifyable on the street. That way the enraged private sector workers can shout abuse at us on the street instead of just posting it on Boards.

It does feel like severe segregation alright. I voted against strike too as it was absolutely pointless, except for stirring up more crap.

Dont be at yourself

I really hope people can see the differance between making neccessary hard decisions and scapegoating easy targets to blame for the eonomic reality we find ourselves in.

It sadden me to see people talk of victory. ok cuts are neccessary but by focusing your energy on public service workers you're playing straight into the governments hands. They'll be sitting back enjoying how workers are blaming other workers for all the countrys problems. standard divide and rule and people fall for it every time.

It's not about blame. It's about making necessary cuts, and it looks like the government might actually have the backbone to do it. That would be a victory.

Scofflaw

Cuchulain wrote: »

Please ban this troll. Look at all the hate threads this complete moron has started. We need more mods on here.

Let me make it clear that the mods are not here to dictate how people ought to feel about the public sector - or the private sector. If there is anger against the public sector, or the government, or property developers, or banks, or the Greens, it is not the mods' role to prevent that anger being expressed by those who feel it - our job is to keep that expression from spilling over into personal attacks on other posters. After that, it's up to yourselves.

Specifically, the post above is such an attack on another poster. If you think someone is trolling, report it. If you attack another poster, you will be infracted, no matter how justified you feel you are in doing so.

moderately,
Scofflaw

herya

seangal wrote: »

There are people on here who say they should let 30000 PS staff go but now we are told the PS can't cope with the staff taking 12 day unpaid

Don't you see the difference?

If people are let go it's because their work is not needed. With job security policy in place there are thousands of such people PS has amassed over the years.

If everybody get a compulsory leave it affects both a car tax office penpusher and an overworked Garda or a busy nurse.

CityCentreMan

Thanks Scofflaw!

With regard to the posts by Blackninja and Deadalus, I am delighted to see your contribution. I have no beef with individual members of the PS but rather with the Unions who purport to represent them and , in that regard, my real beef is with our spineless government who have been outclassed by them. Our lacklustre government have simply allowed the unions to walk all over them.

On this occasion, the government have simply been faced with an alternative force to back down to - joe public. For this government it is a first and it gives me hope that they will continue to listen to the public and not back down to pressure from vested interests as they have always done in the past . .

Our government does'nt really lead, it just decides who to back down to on the day.

If we are to see reform in the Public Service, I would like the reform and the cuts to start with Brian Cowan & Brian Lenihan themselves and work it down. They should :

a) Cut the salaries at ministerial level by at least 30%;
(Maybe benchmark themselves against the pay levels applied in the Scottish Parliament!)
b) Limit the number of pensions to 1 per politician;
c) Outlaw all "unvouched" expenses
d) Place limits on the levels of expenses that can be claimed.

Within the overall civil service, I think that it is appropriate at the cuts be tiered so that the people at the bottom pay vert little indeed.

I honestly believe that it is only when ordinary people (Public & Private Sectors) see that the guys at the top are sharing the pain that it will be (more readily ) accepted.

On this occasion, the "WIN" that I refer to was the government following the wishes of the ordinary people.

The next win will be when they lose the "Charvez Shirts" and apply the cuts to themselves that they are forcing the rest of us to accept!

Deadalus

CityCentreMan wrote: »

Thanks Scofflaw!

With regard to the posts by Blackninja and Deadalus, I am delighted to see your contribution. I have no beef with individual members of the PS but rather with the Unions who purport to represent them and , in that regard, my real beef is with our spineless government who have been outclassed by them. Our lacklustre government have simply allowed the unions to walk all over them.

On this occasion, the government have simply been faced with an alternative force to back down to - joe public. For this government it is a first and it gives me hope that they will continue to listen to the public and not back down to pressure from vested interests as they have always done in the past . .

Our government does'nt really lead, it just decides who to back down to on the day.

If we are to see reform in the Public Service, I would like the reform and the cuts to start with Brian Cowan & Brian Lenihan themselves and work it down. They should :

a) Cut the salaries at ministerial level by at least 30%;
(Maybe benchmark themselves against the pay levels applied in the Scottish Parliament!)
b) Limit the number of pensions to 1 per politician;
c) Outlaw all "unvouched" expenses
d) Place limits on the levels of expenses that can be claimed.

Within the overall civil service, I think that it is appropriate at the cuts be tiered so that the people at the bottom pay vert little indeed.

I honestly believe that it is only when ordinary people (Public & Private Sectors) see that the guys at the top are sharing the pain that it will be (more readily ) accepted.

On this occasion, the "WIN" that I refer to was the government following the wishes of the ordinary people.

The next win will be when they lose the "Charvez Shirts" and apply the cuts to themselves that they are forcing the rest of us to accept!

Excellent post. I agree with everything said there. I too would like to see the government face down the unions as they don't accurately represent the feelings of all public sectore workers.

During a pre strike union meeting I asked my union rep to discuss ways of reducing an individuals expenses such as commuting by lettnig PS workers transfer to departments in there local area. This way they could take a pay hit as there outgoings would be less. The idea was quickly pushed aside so the union rep could continue with his own agenda.

Flamed Diving

If private sector wages continue to fall (I keep hearing from people who had to take a paycut of at least 10% and/or longer hours in the past 12 months), and the public sector get their way and no pay cut is taken from them, how would this be a fair outcome?

herya

Flamed Diving wrote: »

If private sector wages continue to fall (I keep hearing from people who had to take a paycut of at least 10% and/or longer hours in the past 12 months), and the public sector get their way and no pay cut is taken from them, how would this be a fair outcome?

Some statistics on the average rise/fall of private and public sector pay, loads of inetresting points:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/analysis-overview/public-sector-not-carrying-its-share-of-our-burden-1963989.html

Here is what the statistics actually do tell us. The latest data from the Central Statistics Office -- showing earnings in private and public sectors through the second quarter of this year -- show that earnings in the public sector (excluding Health) have increased from just under €943 per week in the second quarter of 2008 to €973 per week in the same period this year -- a rise of more than 3.2pc in one year.

Adjusting for inflation, the real increase in average public sector earnings was well in excess of 8pc. Over the same time, average weekly earnings in the private sector (including industry, mining and quarrying, manufacturing and financial and Insurance services) have fallen from €894 per week to €833 -- a fall of more than 6.8pc over the year to the end of the second quarter of 2009.

...

This implies that the average weekly earnings in the entire public sector now stand above those for the higher grades in the private economy -- a swing of €81 per week in favour of the average public sector worker relative to the managers and professionals employed in the private sector in just one year.

murphaph

There's some very interesting snippets in his article there;

Take the so-called rich bankers. Average earnings for managers, professional grade and clerical grade employees in the sector in the second quarter of this year stood at €983 per week, inclusive of non-wage payments.

Thus, mid-to-senior grade bankers on average earned less in weekly earnings terms than the average employee in the Prison Service, gardai, secondary and third-level education and semi-state companies. Managerial, professional and clerical workers in manufacturing were earning, on average, less than the average employee of all public sector sub-sectors, save for primary teachers, vocational & Institutes of Technology employees, and staff of regional and local bodies.

All in, in the second quarter of this year the average mid-to-top grade private sector worker was earning 2.2pc less than the average public sector employee (excluding those working in health).

And this analysis does not address the fact that, in part, 2009 earnings in the private sector reflect large redundancy payouts to workers whose jobs evaporated in the recession.

Those who argue today that the public sector is carrying its share of the economic burden clearly live in some parallel universe.

The time for discussion and pussyfooting around is over. REAL cuts to public sector pay NOW!

Liam79

Threads like "its over, we won" .....:rolleyes::mad:

There are no winners here, no matter what the outcome. And anyone who see's paycuts to people earning less than 35K as some kinda personal victory for "the common man".....I despair

But I will say this, the idea of the 12 days is a joke, its pathetic and proves that the unions only care about the big boys, and to hell with the lower paid PS's.

Leave people under 30k alone, between 30 and 40K, take 3% off, 40-50k, 5% off and so on up to the top.

Its the fairest way. The 12 days thing is a ruse!

But to say "We won" ......... Dear God ......

Long Onion

On the first day of unpaid leave the unions offered me,
A top cla-ass pension (DB).

On the second day of unpaid leave, they also to-old me,
to "nevermind the threat of efficiency".

On the third day of unpaid leave, the government told me,
I could still claim the allowance available for those who are not in a position to claim any other allowences.

On the fourth day of unpaid leave ...

Good enough I reckon. I do emphatise for those who will feel the pain of any forthcoming pay reductions and I pray that it will be done in an equitable manner. This said, I am absolutely delighted that this bumbling half-baked and half assed excuse for a compromise has been shut down.

I really hope that this series of unfortunate events may finally be the catalyst that brings about a modicum of reform in the Unions of the Country. We are no longer living in the Times of Connolly and Larkin and whilst we must not underestimate their contribution to the lives of our workers, we must not undermine their hard won achievements by continuing to build monolitic structuers devoted to times past.

Please sirs, can we have a new mandate - preferably one that takes account of the views of your members - and please can we sart by politely requesting that you consult your members on the issue of you current levels or remuneration.

Thank you.

ei.sdraob

Liam79 wrote: »

Threads like "its over, we won" .....:rolleyes::mad:

There are no winners here, no matter what the outcome. And anyone who see's paycuts to people earning less than 35K as some kinda personal victory for "the common man".....I despair

But I will say this, the idea of the 12 days is a joke, its pathetic and proves that the unions only care about the big boys, and to hell with the lower paid PS's.

Leave people under 30k alone, between 30 and 40K, take 3% off, 40-50k, 5% off and so on up to the top.

Its the fairest way. The 12 days thing is a ruse!

But to say "We won" ......... Dear God ......

as i said in that thread "what exactly did yee win?"

the whole of the PS is about to be hit with a straight cut across the board

like a flat tax
that will only hurt the youngest and the lowest paid members of the PS most
while the union leaders continue to pull in 6 digit salaries (and not afford a mach3 razor?)


this will also mean people on welfare, most of who just recently lost jobs (and none are from the PS since they have nice secure jobs) will be hit harder

and remaining taxpayers will continue to pay for the fat gravy train, with low productivity

seangal

it looks like we are going back towards the 12 day break again

dfbemt

Definitely the 12 day win is on and looks like a done deal.

Sorry OP.

I don't feel a sense of victory though as I feel the country is sliding down the tubes with next Weds being the flush.

Gumbo

CityCentreMan wrote: »

Thanks Scofflaw!

With regard to the posts by Blackninja and Deadalus, I am delighted to see your contribution. I have no beef with individual members of the PS but rather with the Unions who purport to represent them and , in that regard, my real beef is with our spineless government who have been outclassed by them. Our lacklustre government have simply allowed the unions to walk all over them.

On this occasion, the government have simply been faced with an alternative force to back down to - joe public. For this government it is a first and it gives me hope that they will continue to listen to the public and not back down to pressure from vested interests as they have always done in the past . .

Our government does'nt really lead, it just decides who to back down to on the day.

If we are to see reform in the Public Service, I would like the reform and the cuts to start with Brian Cowan & Brian Lenihan themselves and work it down. They should :

a) Cut the salaries at ministerial level by at least 30%;
(Maybe benchmark themselves against the pay levels applied in the Scottish Parliament!)
b) Limit the number of pensions to 1 per politician;
c) Outlaw all "unvouched" expenses
d) Place limits on the levels of expenses that can be claimed.

Within the overall civil service, I think that it is appropriate at the cuts be tiered so that the people at the bottom pay vert little indeed.

I honestly believe that it is only when ordinary people (Public & Private Sectors) see that the guys at the top are sharing the pain that it will be (more readily ) accepted.

On this occasion, the "WIN" that I refer to was the government following the wishes of the ordinary people.

The next win will be when they lose the "Charvez Shirts" and apply the cuts to themselves that they are forcing the rest of us to accept!

this is probably the first post ive seen on theis whole PS bashing month that has been fair and equal. cuts are needed, but they have to be cut appropriotly (sp) and the top earners have to take the hit too along with the TD's etc etc

thanks,
PS Worker

murphaph

Surely a flat 10% cut to all PS workers is fair? If you're on 30k you lose 3 grand. If you're on 100k you lose 10 grand-more than three times as much.