We Won!!! 12 day for Xmas Deal is Off!!!!

frman

Let the strikes happen.

They wont last long.


The majority of support is for the Government on this issue.

rkeane

Absolutely thrilled about this news, its time the public sector woke up and acknowledged the mess the economy is in. We cannot afford the PS pay bill, it's time to start cutting. The government would have been slaughtered had they agreed to the 12 days off proposal, how could they have sold social welfare cuts and not cut the pay of the public servants?

LoLth

work to rule can be just as damaging as strike. everything gets processed at the longest possible interval. simple tasks become mammoth undertakings and delays in paperwork cause projects to stutter and run over budget.

No need for strike coffers as with work to rule, they are doing exactly what their work entails and will get paid for it but the red tape and beuracracy will cause incredible delays.

frman: let the strikes happen... obviously you dont rely on public amenities or public sector resources to get your work done or earn money, nor do you have anyone in your family with outpatient appointments or in need of hospital care. Strikes arent good for anyone on either side. I see the breakdown of talks as a bad thing. Worse than the unpaid leave deal. that said, there could have been better deals made.

I jsut hope the strikes or whatever action is taken doesnt have an adverse effect on the people hit by the flooding.

frman

LoLth wrote: »

frman: let the strikes happen... obviously you dont rely on public amenities or public sector resources to get your work done or earn money, nor do you have anyone in your family with outpatient appointments or in need of hospital care. Strikes arent good for anyone on either side.

tApologies, I got a little carried away there.

The best course of action has been chosen though, and as much as strikes are not good for anyone, the country will be in a better place for this decision.

LoLth

rkeane wrote: »

Absolutely thrilled about this news, its time the public sector woke up and acknowledged the mess the economy is in. We cannot afford the PS pay bill, it's time to start cutting. The government would have been slaughtered had they agreed to the 12 days off proposal, how could they have sold social welfare cuts and not cut the pay of the public servants?

if the unpaid leave had gone through it would have been unfair to the PS workers in that is isnt weighted against the wage levels. however if enough unpaid days had gone through and the arrangements made so that services would be disrupted as little as possible then the savings could have been made.

now? we're going to get disrupted services because of industrial action. Unions will use redundancies to over inflate any negative impact on productivity (in conjunction with the hiring ban).

fair enough, the unpaid leave (not days off as you are calling them, a day off implies no negative impact) hasnt gone through but it has to have been a better alternative to whats left with talks abandonded.

unless this is a government ploy to force unions into 11th hour negotiations in an effort to gain the upper hand.... next week is going to be fun.

Josey Wales

PeakOutput wrote: »

personally i think 10-20% of them should be let go aswell but ill be hapy with pay cuts

You'll be happy?

The people that revel in another persons misfortune and misery really are the lowest of the low. Unfortunately, it appears that there are many such people on the boards these past few weeks.

CityCentreMan

BlackNinja wrote: »

Can everyone please remember that (and i'm not trying for sympathy or trying to get anyone's back up), the likes out there of me earning a salary of 28k (gross-not take home) with a mortgage and bills to pay and out of work husband to support really cannot afford a 10% pay cut!

I really feel for people on lower than me and struggling.

Now a couple of percent i can work around, but i really cannot survive a whole lot more! I'd end up being better off on Social Welfare and wishing they brought an end to my 'Job For Life'

Blackninja,
I think that there are very few people who would disagree with you.
In my opinion, at the level of EU28K, the cuts should not impact on you.
That said, I strongly feel that there has to be a cost reduction and that it should impact most at higher levels - , starting with Mr Cowan & Mr Lenihan.

kippy

granturismo wrote: »

I'm not supporting this option, but hasn't the pension fund been dipped into before?

Indeed, the pension fund is about as sacrosanct as a wishing well when it comes to bailing out banks.
I believe 4-6 billion was taken from the fund and thrown into the black hole that is Anglo.

kippy

Josey Wales wrote: »

You'll be happy?

The people that revel in another persons misfortune and misery really are the lowest of the low. Unfortunately, it appears that there are many such people on the boards these past few weeks.

Indeed.

The country is in for a tough few months but we gotta accept it and move on. (obviously having learnt the lessons and putting that into practice.)

To be honest at this stage as a Public sector worker I'd like to take my cut NOW as opposed to spread out over the next four years, at least I'll know where I stand. Hit me for anoter13-15% on top of the already implemented pension levy instead of drawing it out over a few budgets.
If I think its not fair I'll try better myself and find a job elsewhere.
I am frankly getting depressed these last two days at work with people on about the next three or four years and all the strikes we'll be on.
Take the hit now, Public service wages, social welfare, minimum wages slash the lot NOW and let people know where they stand.

Going back to my first point about lessons......
If anything the last few months have taught me a couple of things.
-If banks really are that critical to the country we need to ensure that they properly regulated, and not let get out of hand again. Stay away from dodgy dealings and perhaps use the state pension funds to fund a state bank whose SOLE job is consumer deposits and lending.
-We SURELY have to have better people in the country to run the country than are there at the moment, why these people arent stepping forward needs to be looked into. The salary/perks etc all appear to be higher than most jobs in the private sector. Clowns like the Healy Raes etc makes a mockery of our national politics, he could just about be tolerated at a local level.
-The public sector HAS to be run more efficiently. If that happens certain private sector workers and jobs will take a hit. We need investment in sustainable private sector jobs.

Mayo Exile

Unpaid leave in the PS is still around, just that this 12 days compulsory unpaid leave idea seems to be gone. Was known as "term time" (used to be for parents with kids only), but it has now been extended to all members of the civil/public service and is granted if services aren't affected. Called the "special unpaid leave scheme" now. Taking next August off myself under it.

Agree that the unions are making a mess of it. Government should bring a system of graded pay cuts next week. (higher PS earners = biggest cuts etc.)

FGR

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Unpaid leave in the PS is still around, just that this 12 days compulsory unpaid leave idea seems to be gone. Was known as "term time" (used to be for parents with kids only), but it has now been extended to all members of the civil/public service and is granted if services aren't affected. Called the "special unpaid leave scheme"

...Since when? I've yet to hear of this scheme; and are you sure it's available to the entire PS?

Mayo Exile

Since June of this year. Known as Circular 14/2009 - Shorter Working Year Scheme.

Summary: http://www.ucd.ie/hr/t4cms/revised%20faqs%20on%20circular%2014%20shorter%20working%20year%20scheme.pdf

Full document: http://www.ucd.ie/hr/t4cms/revised%20circular%2014%202009%20shorter%20working%20year%20scheme.pdf

Darby OGill

The failure of the talks seems like a lost opportunity to me. It looks as if the unions had made pretty big concessions on core working hours, shift allowances, overtime etc. (particularily in the health sector, which is by far the biggest cost centre) that would have taken months if not years to agree otherwise. These savings would have had a huge impact on overall payroll costs in the future, and when added to natural wastage, older, higher earners leaving on the retirement scheme, pay freeze etc. would have made a real difference.

The unions had to sell these changes, and the unpaid leave was the sugar on the bitter pill i.e. base pay rates would remain unchanged, so no loss of face for the public sector workers otherwise.

Now, 250,000+ already angry workers are going to get a second pay cut in less than a year, on top of being blamed everywhere for all the problems the country faces. So we get strikes, long-term work-to-rule, non-co-operation etc. and NO reform.

Seems to me the government has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and all because a few backbenchers and Joe Duffy rent-a-mob callers freaked without knowing the details of the deal.

How anyone thinks they've won is beyond me- we're all in for a lot more pain....

eamo_

BlackNinja wrote: »

Can everyone please remember that (and i'm not trying for sympathy or trying to get anyone's back up), the likes out there of me earning a salary of 28k (gross-not take home) with a mortgage and bills to pay and out of work husband to support really cannot afford a 10% pay cut!

I really feel for people on lower than me and struggling.

Now a couple of percent i can work around, but i really cannot survive a whole lot more! I'd end up being better off on Social Welfare and wishing they brought an end to my 'Job For Life'

I feel that the PS is being scapegoated. I am already cut by 17% this year on less than an original €18000 pa. That 17% is not taking into account the pension levy (which is a cut -especially for PS workers like me who do not have a pension but have to pay the levy anyway) and not taking into account the income levy. I'm afraid to calculate it, it's depressing enough trying to pay my mortgage and all the normal bills, and being left wiht nothing out of my pay for anything else. I am just scraping by at the moment. if they take any more, I'll have to go to the Community Welfare people with some of the bills-electricity, heating or that.

Inquitus

eamo_ wrote: »

I feel that the PS is being scapegoated. I am already cut by 17% this year on less than an original €18000 pa. That 17% is not taking into account the pension levy (which is a cut -especially for PS workers like me who do not have a pension but have to pay the levy anyway) and not taking into account the income levy. I'm afraid to calculate it, it's depressing enough trying to pay my mortgage and all the normal bills, and being left wiht nothing out of my pay for anything else. I am just scraping by at the moment. if they take any more, I'll have to go to the Community Welfare people with some of the bills-electricity, heating or that.

You will pay the income levy unless:

* Your income is less than €18,304 a year

You dont pay it so don't worry.

K-9

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Since June of this year. Known as Circular 14/2009 - Shorter Working Year Scheme.

Summary: http://www.ucd.ie/hr/t4cms/revised%20faqs%20on%20circular%2014%20shorter%20working%20year%20scheme.pdf

Full document: http://www.ucd.ie/hr/t4cms/revised%20circular%2014%202009%20shorter%20working%20year%20scheme.pdf

[/QUOTE]

Indeed, this scheme already exists but there was little take up of it.

FGR

Why do I have a feeling it applies to Civil Servants only and not all Public Servants?

K-9

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling it applies to Civil Servants only and not all Public Servants?

Probably would be a nightmare to administer in Frontline services.

Chinafoot

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling it applies to Civil Servants only and not all Public Servants?

Well I work in the public service and I'm eligible for it. Have you been allowed take Term Time before now?

namenotavailablE

You will pay the income levy unless:

* Your income is less than €18,304 a year

That was the old threshold for the income levy.
The April mini-budget changed the threshold to €15028.

gerry28

Darby OGill wrote: »

The failure of the talks seems like a lost opportunity to me. It looks as if the unions had made pretty big concessions on core working hours, shift allowances, overtime etc. (particularily in the health sector, which is by far the biggest cost centre) that would have taken months if not years to agree otherwise. These savings would have had a huge impact on overall payroll costs in the future, and when added to natural wastage, older, higher earners leaving on the retirement scheme, pay freeze etc. would have made a real difference.

The unions had to sell these changes, and the unpaid leave was the sugar on the bitter pill i.e. base pay rates would remain unchanged, so no loss of face for the public sector workers otherwise.

Now, 250,000+ already angry workers are going to get a second pay cut in less than a year, on top of being blamed everywhere for all the problems the country faces. So we get strikes, long-term work-to-rule, non-co-operation etc. and NO reform.

Seems to me the government has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and all because a few backbenchers and Joe Duffy rent-a-mob callers freaked without knowing the details of the deal.

How anyone thinks they've won is beyond me- we're all in for a lot more pain....

I think it is a big loss for the government. The unions offered quite alot of reform and cooperation.

There is no appetite for more strikes. But if work to rule comes in then that will cause major problems.

Also, my guess is that sick leave will go through the roof in 2010, if they cut pay without a union agreement.

dreamers75

Work to rule is already in, this is unions we are talking about.


Why is a private sector worker will have no problems doing their job and maybe changing a light bulb or sweeping an area or emptying a bin. But to a Union thats a 4 person job and on preagreed rates.

Its not rocket science here the unions have ****ed themselves over by allowing this work to rule or "not my jobbism" to go on whilst never once thinking it may have an adverse effect on a company/PS unit.

There are cleaners in hospitals earning €19 an hour for a 40 hour week they cant be sacked for being **** at their job or never showing up on a monday/payday, there is no logic to how a cleaner can be paid that much but its preagreed with the unions :eek:

gerry28

dreamers75 wrote: »

Work to rule is already in, this is unions we are talking about.

No it isn't really in. It would be much more problematic than the odd strike day if it was brought in with such bad feeling.

dreamers75

gerry28 wrote: »

No it isn't really in. It would be much more problematic than the odd strike day if it was brought in with such bad feeling.

I worked for Unilever (siptu) before the employees killed it and they moved to Poland or somewhere. I refused to join the union whilst i was there packing soup for €16 ph plus shift allowance was getting 800 after tax for packing soup :eek:

My soup packing machine had a screw loose on one of the door sensors, i tightened it and wahay it was back packing soup. I had 3 meetings with the union rep and official warning about never doing that again as it was the technicians jobs to tighten the screw.


That is one instance of unions killing jobs for the sake of exploiting money from a company. my shift was from 1.30 to 9am as the day staff refused to change to a normal 8-4 so all shifts worked around that.


That is normal behaviour in a Union job. That "not my jobbisms" kills company and tbh imo they should leave and go for cheaper more "adaptable and functional" employees in other countries.

Public service fail to realise this due to greed and a union behind them, but others have to work for the money they earn not refuse to work as its not their job.

kippy

dreamers75 wrote: »

I worked for Unilever (siptu) before the employees killed it and they moved to Poland or somewhere. I refused to join the union whilst i was there packing soup for €16 ph plus shift allowance was getting 800 after tax for packing soup :eek:

My soup packing machine had a screw loose on one of the door sensors, i tightened it and wahay it was back packing soup. I had 3 meetings with the union rep and official warning about never doing that again as it was the technicians jobs to tighten the screw.


That is one instance of unions killing jobs for the sake of exploiting money from a company. my shift was from 1.30 to 9am as the day staff refused to change to a normal 8-4 so all shifts worked around that.


That is normal behaviour in a Union job. That "not my jobbisms" kills company and tbh imo they should leave and go for cheaper more "adaptable and functional" employees in other countries.

Public service fail to realise this due to greed and a union behind them, but others have to work for the money they earn not refuse to work as its not their job.

Right,
I get all the bad feeling towards the Public Service and the then versus us but again,
We're not all idiots, we're not all into the "my jobism" and there are in fact some really good people in here who do care.
You have classed all members of the public service as greedy and sheep, and for that I will take a ban,

You are a narrow minded idiot.


I've had enough of this crap for this week, time for some beer.

lmimmfn

eamo_ wrote: »

I am already cut by 17% this year on less than an original €18000 pa. That 17% is not taking into account the pension levy (which is a cut -especially for PS workers like me who do not have a pension but have to pay the levy anyway) and not taking into account the income levy. I'm afraid to calculate it, it's depressing enough trying to pay my mortgage and all the normal bills, and being left wiht nothing out of my pay for anything else. I am just scraping by at the moment. if they take any more, I'll have to go to the Community Welfare people with some of the bills-electricity, heating or that.

i find it very hard to believe that if you stay in your job until your pension age that you wouldnt get any pension whatsoever other than the 10k or whatever state pension which everyone gets, you must be the only PS worker in Ireland on that deal?

And you have a mortgage and on 18000 gross? :eek:

dreamers75

kippy wrote: »

Right,
I get all the bad feeling towards the Public Service and the then versus us but again,
We're not all idiots, we're not all into the "my jobism" and there are in fact some really good people in here who do care.
You have classed all members of the public service as greedy and sheep, and for that I will take a ban,

You are a narrow minded idiot.


I've had enough of this crap for this week, time for some beer.

No i classed the unions as greedy and the members as sheep who obivousoly aint gonna turn down an extra dollar, i certainly wouldnt.

i have nothing but disdain for unions and what they stand for, im sure 100 years ago it meant something but now they are power hungry fools who lead their sheep.

My son was recently in hospital for a splinter removal and the surgeon left a piece in his foot and he had to go back in and get it removed a 2nd time (5 year old ) i know full well everyone in that hospital who treated him did a damn good job but **** happens and the 2nd time they did a damn good job too.

The unions have created this problem not the people who are forced to join them as part of taking the job.

imo your opinion is as valid as anyones but im not a narrow minded idiot, im a realist. And the reality is unions dont work.

bonkey

kippy wrote: »

I will take a ban

Prophetic.

82dgolf

Lots of dead wood in the public service, time for change.

frman

gerry28 wrote: »

I think it is a big loss for the government. The unions offered quite alot of reform and cooperation.

Empty promises from the Unions. Thankfully, the Government saw them for what they were.

In any case, the Govt should press ahead and reform the PS regardless of the input from the Unions. It is time to get tough and not allow Unions to dictate policy and advancement any longer. If PS workers don't like the reforms that are to be made, fire them one by one and replace them with people who want to take the job.

Unions have had far to much say in this Country and it is time to squeez the life out of them.