We Won!!! 12 day for Xmas Deal is Off!!!!

imstrongerthanu

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055761229

frman

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055761229

Down with the Unions and they sh1te they splurge.

gerry28

frman wrote: »

If PS workers don't like the reforms that are to be made, fire them one by one and replace them with people who want to take the job.

Read up on your EU Employment law. They won't get far without the support of the unions and the PS Staff.

Darragh29

gerry28 wrote: »

Read up on your EU Employment law. They won't get far without the support of the unions and the PS Staff.

An employer doesn't have to recognise a union. Could you see Michael O' Leary having this problem with his workers???

I personally think that unions are usually a good thing and they have a role but setting government spending policy is not one of them.

Mayoegian

Will there be another strike? Or strikes?

gerry28

Darragh29 wrote: »

An employer doesn't have to recognise a union. Could you see Michael O' Leary having this problem with his workers???

I personally think that unions are usually a good thing and they have a role but setting government spending policy is not one of them.

Yeah but they can't just sack and replace willy nilly

oldyouth

gerry28 wrote: »

I think it is a big loss for the government. The unions offered quite alot of reform and cooperation.

There is no appetite for more strikes. But if work to rule comes in then that will cause major problems.

Also, my guess is that sick leave will go through the roof in 2010, if they cut pay without a union agreement.

Reform should be part of every public service area, as it is in the private sector. If you stand still, you are lost. Why should anything be given in return for modernising work practices. The Country needs to be run like a successful business

As for sick leave going through the roof because of thIS latest development, that is theft, pure and simple. Try that 'sickie' crap in the private sector and you will soon get fired.

Darragh29

oldyouth wrote: »

Reform should be part of every public service area, as it is in the private sector. If you stand still, you are lost. Why should anything be given in return for modernising work practices. The Country needs to be run like a successful business

As for sick leave going through the roof because of thIS latest development, that is theft, pure and simple. Try that 'sickie' crap in the private sector and you will soon get fired.

I reckon when Lehihan sits back down next Wednesday evening in the Dail, there will be many happy people in the country who will be nothing less than relieved that the codding that is going on with the public sector will finally be up. He has to draw a line now in the sand and take this issue by the scruff of the neck and sort it out for once and for all and now is his opportunty to do it and I think from what I know of the man that he will do this...

On the other hand, we will have those who think that they cannot live on guaranteed salaries of 50K, 60K, 80K, 100K, 120K, we need to face them down. He should announce that reform of the public sector is now happening immediately and anyone who is not inclined to run with it and support reform can either sign an undertaking that they will support reforms from now on or else can be selected for involuntary redundancy immediately.

gerry28

oldyouth wrote: »

Try that 'sickie' crap in the private sector and you will soon get fired.

Well that is not the case in my experience, I worker for an american multi national for years before joining the PS. The abuse of the sick days particularly on mondays and fridays was rampant. I don't remember anybody getting sacked about it.

There was far more absenteeism there than in where I work now.

oldyouth

gerry28 wrote: »

Well that is not the case in my experience, I worker for an american multi national for years before joining the PS. The abuse of the sick days particularly on mondays and fridays was rampant. I don't remember anybody getting sacked about it.

There was far more absenteeism there than in where I work now.

In a way, you are proving my point. In the good old days, absenteeism was tolerated in the Private Sector, as long as the good times were here. Now it is cold shower time and employers will not stand for that behaviour. Difference is that Private Sector layabouts get fired and Public Sector counterparts get a 'note' put on their file

RGS

The only winners are the high earners as the govt have set there face against raising taxes but intend cutting the pay of nurses and the other low paid civil and public servants.

So the CEO's of the two major banks earning €500,000 are not being asked to contribute extra taxes because IBEC and all business leaders have campaigned against tax rises and have campaigned for pay cuts in the PS. Thats fair!!!!!!

The private sector workers have fallen for the govt and IBEC spin which set private V public and the real villians will escape.

PS cuts will be used by private sector employers to reduce further pay rates much to the delight of IBEC and ISME.

All workers are losers as a result of a failure to reach a deal.
I have worked in both sectors and curently work in the private sector but my wife is a job sharing nurse. Does she deserve a further pay cut on top of her pension levy. To all private sectors workers nurss have paid for their pensions since they became permanent. My wife pays 12.5% towards her pension whilst her boss Brendan Drumm on €360,000 pays 9.6%--thsi is the type of equality practised by this govt.

Anyone who believes this is a victory for the common man are mistaken.

K-9

RGS wrote: »

My wife pays 12.5% towards her pension whilst her boss Brendan Drumm on €360,000 pays 9.6%--thsi is the type of equality practised by this govt.

She pays the old 6.5% deduction and the new one I take it.

Does he not pay the old 6.5% levy?

LoLth

wasnt there a cut off point where before then you didnt pay superannuation? (the pension payment that was in place before the pension levy was added) maybe he was part of the PS from before that date and so doesnt have to pay the superannuation. or maybe I'm just thinking of PRSI

boodlesdoodles

Darragh29 wrote: »

I reckon when Lehihan sits back down next Wednesday evening in the Dail, there will be many happy people in the country who will be nothing less than relieved that the codding that is going on with the public sector will finally be up. He has to draw a line now in the sand and take this issue by the scruff of the neck and sort it out for once and for all and now is his opportunty to do it and I think from what I know of the man that he will do this...

On the other hand, we will have those who think that they cannot live on guaranteed salaries of 50K, 60K, 80K, 100K, 120K, we need to face them down. He should announce that reform of the public sector is now happening immediately and anyone who is not inclined to run with it and support reform can either sign an undertaking that they will support reforms from now on or else can be selected for involuntary redundancy immediately.

If any large private sector business was culling up to 10K workers (like FG said there should be in public serv) there would be uproar in this country, and rightly so, but for some reason when its the public serv its fair game. I can't believe how deluded some people on here are.. the govt are experts at spin. Whilst pushing the public serv out there as the whipping boy it will detract from the real issue that the budget is going to cripple us all.

When Lenihan announces his budget I see:

I can see the tax bands being widened to include many who don't pay tax at the moment.
I can see aspects of Social Welfare being reduced with most impact on those who can't afford it.
I've no problem with Children's allowance being means tested but this won't happen. It'll be a straightforward cut.
Further stealth taxes will be increased or new ones introduced.

The amount of bitterness on these threads is unbelievable. The amount of wishing bad on other citizens is frightening. The govt have created the perfect scapegoat of the public serv, the govt are not the heroes you all think they are; they are still as self-serving and big business/bank orientated as they've always been. The private sector will suffer just as much as the public sector are going to, down the line. IBEC and ISME must be wetting themselves with the excitement - cuts will be across the board and slashing public sector wages to 2003 levels will only end up in the private sector having the same rules applied to them.

And no, I'm not a public servant, just someone who looks beyond singling out one sector of society and realises that the cuts are far from over.

PeakOutput

RGS wrote: »

So the CEO's of the two major banks earning €500,000 are not being asked to contribute extra taxes because IBEC and all business leaders have campaigned against tax rises and have campaigned for pay cuts in the PS. Thats fair!!!!!!

here is the reality i fixed it for you open your eyes

'the CEO's of the two major banks earning €500,000 are not being asked to contribute extra taxes because THEY ALREADY PAY 77% OF THE TAXES THIS COUNTRY TAKES IN ALONG WITH THE OTHER TOP 10% OF EARNERS IN THE COUNTRY'

ask them to pay more and they are gone and with them up to 77% of our tax revenue. guess what happens then? the country ceases to exist as we know it

personally i believe no front line staff pay should be touched if its at all possible. if its not possible to do it that way then im afraid thats tough

K-9

LoLth wrote: »

wasnt there a cut off point where before then you didnt pay superannuation? (the pension payment that was in place before the pension levy was added) maybe he was part of the PS from before that date and so doesnt have to pay the superannuation. or maybe I'm just thinking of PRSI

True, but wasn't extra pay awarded for paying the extra PRSI?

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

If any large private sector business was culling up to 10K workers (like FG said there should be in public serv) there would be uproar in this country, and rightly so, but for some reason when its the public serv its fair game.

JAYSUS CHRIST. Seriously!

The Public Sector employs 350,000 people. The Private Sector has already took a 200-250,000 job cut!

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

When Lenihan announces his budget I see:

I can see the tax bands being widened to include many who don't pay tax at the moment.
I can see aspects of Social Welfare being reduced with most impact on those who can't afford it.
I've no problem with Children's allowance being means tested but this won't happen. It'll be a straightforward cut.
Further stealth taxes will be increased or new ones introduced.

Yep, think we all know that.

boodlesdoodles

Seriously?? 10K people out of work in one fell swoop is another 10K added to the live register? And that's ok? The most of those let go will be the new recruits who will probably only be entitled to the forthcoming reduced dole for under 23/25s.

The public is putting too much emphasis on public sector cuts, which are inevitable, and not enough on exactly how the govt are going to punish those of us in private as well. That's the point I'm trying to get across I suppose that they'll sneak stuff in and all the media will concentrate on is how the public sector are getting it whilst ignoring the reality for us all. There has not been one coherent newspaper article about the real impact of the budget for the people of this country, all I've seen is public sector bashing in the papers. Its very worrying.

K-9

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

Seriously?? 10K people out of work in one fell swoop is another 10K added to the live register? And that's ok? The most of those let go will be the new recruits who will probably only be entitled to the forthcoming reduced dole for under 23/25s.

The public is putting too much emphasis on public sector cuts, which are inevitable, and not enough on exactly how the govt are going to punish those of us in private as well. That's the point I'm trying to get across I suppose that they'll sneak stuff in and all the media will concentrate on is how the public sector are getting it whilst ignoring the reality for us all. There has not been one coherent newspaper article about the real impact of the budget for the people of this country, all I've seen is public sector bashing in the papers. Its very worrying.

Yes, but putting 10,000 Public Servants on the dole, especially temporary ones costs little! Why do you think they get rid of temporary contracts?

There will be stealth taxes etc.

Its trying to increase revenues and cut costs. Some costs are fixed and some are variable. You cut variable costs first.

boodlesdoodles

K-9 wrote: »

Yes, but putting 10,000 Public Servants on the dole, especially temporary ones costs little! Why do you think they get rid of temporary contracts?

There will be stealth taxes etc.

Its trying to increase revenues and cut costs. Some costs are fixed and some are variable. You cut variable costs first.

So you're saying its ok for public servants to be put on the dole? There aren't 10K temp workers surely? Putting someone out of a job is awful but it seems that most people here think its acceptable once they're public servants. Were you saying the same when Dell put over 1K out of work in Limerick? They were just minimum-wagers to hell with them?

PeakOutput

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

So you're saying its ok for public servants to be put on the dole? There aren't 10K temp workers surely? Putting someone out of a job is awful but it seems that most people here think its acceptable once they're public servants. Were you saying the same when Dell put over 1K out of work in Limerick? They were just minimum-wagers to hell with them?

leaving aside the absolute bloated nature of the public service for a minute

it is necessary to reduce the size of the public service to save the country. doing whats necessary is always acceptable

Sandwich

Only heard about this 12days unpaid leave thing in snatches. Then, in the reports on how the talks broke down, I heard a comment along the lines that the 12 days could have been spread over six years rather than 3 years. I actually thought the 12 days thing (when I thought it was 12 days per year) was a decent way to cut a chunk of what we pay the public service. I would accept the lower consequences of a lesser service delivered as a consequence. But 2 or 3 days? A nonsense alright. BTW, there's no problem finding 12 days per year for teachers to take unpaid without them getting upset that they would be neglecting their students- anyones they like during July or August.

frman

Sandwich wrote: »

BTW, there's no problem finding 12 days per year for teachers to take unpaid without them getting upset that they would be neglecting their students- anyones they like during July or August.

Do you think the teachers agreed with that ?

Did they fup.


Being too greedy cost them a deal. Kids interests at heart my aras.

doc_17

The government came out of this better (although not by design). Now they have no hope of reform. No hope of anything except clinging on for the sake of clinging. Jim McDaid (Drink Driver and part time TD), Martin Cullen, Mary Harney, Biffo, Brian Lenihan, Willie O'Dea, Mary Coughlan. All of these people are tired old losers whose time has passed. Will anyone miss these people?

foxymm

Just to mention that about 15 or 20 years ago in Australia, there was a huge dispute between the Government there and Nurses. The Govt. want to reduce their pay, conditions etc. Their first couple of strikes didn't even get their grievances across to the government and so what did they do ? They walked off the job en masse... The dispute was resolved within an hour!!! Now am I not advocating that but certainly Nurses and other publin sector workers can hold this country to ransom, if they wanted

sold

Goes to Show how far removed unions are from reality. In the real business world there is no way you would shut up shop for 2 weeks, no money, no profit, no work!!.

Thank God for once this crazy crazy idea has bunked on the head. My wife and I had to take pay cuts (as well as the tax levy and PRSI levy) from our private sector job, in total we lost 30% compared to 2008. So its about time the goverment shared the burden on the public sector that is paid from my taxes!!!!

imme

CityCentreMan wrote: »

Just turn on your radio!

This is the first time in a very long time that our government have stood up to the unions.

The only reason they did is because they were frightened by the alternative as voiced by the people. WE WON!!!

the govt didn't stand up to any union. they were split on how to proceed. Batt O'Keeffe was interviewed on RTE news on thursday saying that his interpretation of how the unpaid leave would be taken differed from how a union leader was quoted as to how it would be taken. This was the first public indication that the govt was at odds. Cowen has not been at the forefront, he's not leading, he can't even lead his own govt never mind his party or the country. There is the odd quote from him released to the media, that's about it.
The governemnt looked all certain to do a deal, then there was a split in cabinet.
I'm afraid the government didn't stand up to anyone, or for anything.

Sand

Just to mention that about 15 or 20 years ago in Australia, there was a huge dispute between the Government there and Nurses. The Govt. want to reduce their pay, conditions etc. Their first couple of strikes didn't even get their grievances across to the government and so what did they do ? They walked off the job en masse... The dispute was resolved within an hour!!! Now am I not advocating that but certainly Nurses and other publin sector workers can hold this country to ransom, if they wanted

They should try it. Really, I hope they do so that the unions are utterly broken. Cutbacks are inevitable. Utterly inevitable.

And given the nurses were going to get screwed by their own unions with their regressive 12 days of christmas plan, they should be happy that FG are proposing adjustments where the lowest paid in the public sector would not take a hit whilst the very highest paid take the brunt of the adjustment. Our low paid, frontline nurses, gardai and firefighters ought to be voting FG, as Gillmore was backing the plan that would have seen them all take a 5% regressive cut.

Income % Reduction % Reduction
(After Tax) (Before Tax)

€30,000 0% 0%
€40,000 0.7% 1.3%
€50,000 1.6% 3.0%
€60,000 2.2% 4.2%
€70,000 2.6% 5.0%
€80,000 2.8% 5.6%
€90,000 3.0% 6.1%
€100,000 3.2% 6.5%
€150,000 5.4% 11.0%
€220,000 6.5% 13.9%

gerry28

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

So you're saying its ok for public servants to be put on the dole? There aren't 10K temp workers surely? Putting someone out of a job is awful but it seems that most people here think its acceptable once they're public servants. Were you saying the same when Dell put over 1K out of work in Limerick? They were just minimum-wagers to hell with them?

It shows the level of anamosity towards the public service when people think nothing of calling for 10,000 people to be put on the dole. Similarly there have been calls for 20, 30 even 40% paycuts regardless of what this would do to those peoples lives.

Flex

gerry28 wrote: »

It shows the level of anamosity towards the public service when people think nothing of calling for 10,000 people to be put on the dole. Similarly there have been calls for 20, 30 even 40% paycuts regardless of what this would do to those peoples lives.

Not that I agree with your sentiments, but look at it from this perspective (and these are just rough sums); there are about 2,000,000 people in the private sector, about 250,000 of those have lost there jobs, giving about 11-13% of them. There are 355,000 people in the public sector, if 10,000 lost their jobs it would equate to only 2.75% or so. So its not exactly drastic to consider.

gerry28

Flex wrote: »

Not that I agree with your sentiments, but look at it from this perspective (and these are just rough sums); there are about 2,000,000 people in the private sector, about 250,000 of those have lost there jobs, giving about 11-13% of them. There are 355,000 people in the public sector, if 10,000 lost their jobs it would equate to only 2.75% or so. So its not exactly drastic to consider.

Its the human angle though, that people would think nothing of asking for that many people to lose their jobs.