We Won!!! 12 day for Xmas Deal is Off!!!!

PeakOutput

Paulzx wrote: »

Minimum wage will be lowered. IBEC and ISME have been constantly lobbying for this to happen. The people on the big bucks of 8euro an hour will soon be hit. The arguement of a 6% drop in cost of living will be used to justify this along with pointing at the public sector and saying we've already cut them

im on minimum wage and i fully expect and accept that it will be cut and it willbe cut for the general good of the country i understand this will affect people way worse than it will affect me but nevertheless i will be affected but can see that its totally necessary

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

so you want a detailed job by job wage breakdown , thats more p breathnachs kind of thing , being a former civil servant , hes a stickler on detail

First detail: I have never said here what jobs I have had in the public service. Further, it is inappropriate for you to discuss my background outside the context in which I mentioned it as disclosure of interest.
Second detail: it is expected here that you back up the points you make, especially if that is requested or demanded; we should all be sticklers on detail.

as i said in my previous post , wages in the public sector should be comparable to european countries with similar levels of wealth to ourselves , for example , finland , overall , its a wealthier country than us but its teachers only earn 45% of what teachers in ireland earn , interestingly , finland comes in at number 3 in a rundown of countries with the best education system , ireland doesnt make the top 20

We have been over this ground before, and you are still wrong on the facts. I refer you to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62705774&postcount=100 .

gimpotronitus

Did anyone else find it funny the way the union heads were acting after the government refused to go down on bended knee? They were outside government buildings talking about how a great opportunity was lost and that they were devastated and amazed at how the government could not see what a great deal they were offering?

I am absolutely delighted that the talks broke down, absolutely delighted. Though I despair that Cowen probably only backed down after the massive uproar of the public being fed through the back benchers. He comes from the FF school of cute hoors who want to try and accommadate every bloody vested interest.

Speaking of vested interests, the unions are just that - vested interests for a *minority* of privilaged people in this country. It amazes me that it had gotten to the stage that these same vested interests expected the government to do as they said and did not countenance for one minute that the deal would not go through. You could see it in their faces afterwards. What a ridiculous country we live in.

These union heads are an odd lot, you could see that nurses union head, Liam Doran, telling people to shut up until the talks were finished i.e. "The public better shut their mouth so as not to distract the government until we get our sweet heart deal". A nasty bunch of me-feiners.

The public service can not complain about the anti PS rants - they continue to deny the facts of their employment and the benefits they receive, both tangible and intangible and they also allow themselves to be represented by a bunch of bearded James Larkin Acolytes who belong in the dark ages.

As I said before, delighted at this result but wary about Cowen the deal maker, Bertie desciple and all round chump.

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

First detail: I have never said here what jobs I have had in the public service. Further, it is inappropriate for you to discuss my background outside the context in which I mentioned it as disclosure of interest.
Second detail: it is expected here that you back up the points you make, especially if that is requested or demanded; we should all be sticklers on detail.



We have been over this ground before, and you are still wrong on the facts. I refer you to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62705774&postcount=100 .

sorry DEEPTHROAT , i mean p , didnt mean to out you in that way , still , i doubt your specific role serving our country was exposed in any real sense

irish_bob

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

while I don't always agree with his thoughts, I'd imagine its less to do with his former job and more to do with him wanting to look at facts and figures, that are based in reality rather than hearsay and hyperbole



is a teachers job in Finland the same as in Ireland?
what are the average class sizes in Finland?
are there extras in Finland not counted in base salary levels?
is the better education rating the fault of the individual teachers or a curriculum issue?

I'm not trying to defend teachers here, but rather ask you to look at a bigger picture. One that includes more than just base salary levels.

I'd be surprised if we couldn't reduce our overall spend on education and not get better results, but constantly bleating on about how much one group gets paid over another in a different country is not a solution. At best, its whining and moaning, without offering anything beneficial to the end-user, which in this case are pupils.

class sizes in ireland are high because wages are high , given a choice between reduced class sizes or increases wages , teachers unions have always voted with their walletts , malfunded not underfunded yet again

just like in many other areas , when it comes to wage levels , other countries are always used as a barrometer

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

so you want a detailed job by job wage breakdown , thats more p breathnachs kind of thing , being a former civil servant , hes a stickler on detail

as i said in my previous post , wages in the public sector should be comparable to european countries with similar levels of wealth to ourselves , for example , finland , overall , its a wealthier country than us but its teachers only earn 45% of what teachers in ireland earn , interestingly , finland comes in at number 3 in a rundown of countries with the best education system , ireland doesnt make the top 20

You still havent answered the question. You raised the issue of your definition of a good wage in this country. However you still refuse to state what your definition is. No one asked you about specific jobs.

What is your defintion of a survivable, good wage.

And why are you winking in your post? Do you fancy me? Or is it P Breathnach that tickles your fancy?:D

Dr Galen

irish_bob wrote: »

class sizes in ireland are high because wages are high , given a choice between reduced class sizes or increases wages , teachers unions have always voted with their walletts , malfunded not underfunded yet again

just like in many other areas , when it comes to wage levels , other countries are always used as a barrometer

would you like to comment on any of the other aspects of my post? Or is it just the wages part of it your interested in?

thebman

Paulzx wrote: »

You still havent answered the question. You raised the issue of your definition of a good wage in this country. However you still refuse to state what your definition is. No one asked you about specific jobs.

What is your defintion of a survivable, good wage.

And why are you winking in your post? Do you fancy me? Or is it P Breathnach that tickles your fancy?:D

It is completely dependant on the experience, skill level, area etc...

There is no high wage, there is high wage for a particular job role.

RGS

irish_bob wrote: »

reasonabley comparable to countries in europe which are equal to us in terms of wealth , our nurses and guards are over paid by about 20 - 25% and before you mention the cost of living , the cost of living is high because wages and wellfare are high , the cost of living is falling and will fall further but it never makes the 1st move

Lets take your example then all wages both private and public need to be reduced in line with your selected country. That would be very fair and equitable--will the private sector accept this reduction.?

gandalf

Again we already have and some have even taken 100% pay cuts and lost their jobs. :rolleyes:

TCP/IP_King

irish_bob wrote: »

... business and employers can use money ( they might have had to set aside for the tax man ) to employ new people , people that are on the dole right now ,

Total bull. Since when did a business act like a social service to take people off the dole? Profit is the bottom line not some altruistic notion that Ireland is being saved.

irish_bob wrote: »

raising taxes means reduced growth which means reduced job creation

Cutting wages, and lets face it the real agenda is the national minimum wage, means reduced spending which means reduced job creation.

PeakOutput

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Cutting wages, and lets face it the real agenda is the national minimum wage, means reduced spending which means reduced job creation.

incorrect

a reduced minimum wage reduces costs for all types of business's not just business's whose target markets are in ireland

thebman

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Cutting wages, and lets face it the real agenda is the national minimum wage, means reduced spending which means reduced job creation.

How does reduced minimum wage mean reduced job creation?

Surely if a business needs two people but can't afford to pay two people minimum wage and it is reduced by a euro an hour they may now be in a position to hire two people instead of having one overworked employee.

namloc1980

PeakOutput wrote: »

clearly i was not refering to murder or genocide or anything even close and you know it. for what we are talking about doing whats necessary is always acceptable

Acceptable to whom exactly? Is it acceptable to the public servants you want to see on the dole?

K-9

oscarBravo wrote: »

What percentage of the workforce is on minimum wage?

Think its about 10%. There was a CSO report linked to on this site site a few months back. I'll see if I can digit out.

People assume its higher because of 50% paying no tax or whatever the stat is.

old boy

i first went to tunisia around 1998, schools then and still i believe do two shifts, each day bar friday ? (religion) yes six days a week the early shift this week had the late shift next week, plus the hollidays were minimal, people want to look outside this country and say this happens here and there, to suit themselves, quite a lot happens outside this country that they do not like to mention.

FearDark

Could someone tell me what they could be cutting jobseekers benefit by? Ive heard some people say it'll be cut by 40 euro? If it is I'll literally be homeless for christmas.

PeakOutput

namloc1980 wrote: »

Acceptable to whom exactly? Is it acceptable to the public servants you want to see on the dole?

probably not but its not about what i want or what they want its about what is going to save the country

cson

namloc1980 wrote: »

Acceptable to whom exactly? Is it acceptable to the public servants you want to see on the dole?

Public servants on the dole, lol

When will we get to see this utopian paradise?

P. Breathnach

cson wrote: »

Public servants on the dole, lol

When will we get to see this utopian paradise?

That's not a nice attitude.

old boy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's not a nice attitude.

why, ? is reality starting to stare you in the face

P. Breathnach

old boy wrote: »

why, ? is reality starting to stare you in the face

It's simply not nice to wish ill on anybody, and it is particularly unpleasant to gloat in anticipation of somebody's misfortune.

Do you really need to have that explained to you?

K-9

Best I could find on the minimum wage was a Dail Q & A extract:
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-11-03.746.0

3.8% on minimum wage in 07

10% where paid €8.42 an hour, or less in 07.

TCP/IP_King

thebman wrote: »

How does reduced minimum wage mean reduced job creation?

reduction in spending
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Deflation_Articles/Deflation.asp

PeakOutput

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

reduction in spending
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Deflation_Articles/Deflation.asp

he didnt ask what is deflation read the question again

thebman

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

reduction in spending
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Deflation_Articles/Deflation.asp

But if the guy hires someone previously on the dole and they have two employees with surplus income instead of one they will be more money.

It depends on how many employers need to hire an extra person but can't afford to ATM because of the high minimum wage.

cson

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's simply not nice to wish ill on anybody, and it is particularly unpleasant to gloat in anticipation of somebody's misfortune.

The comment was made in jest. The reality is that a public servant has never claimed social welfare - i.e. a public servant has never been made unwillingly redundant. That is what we call job security and what is more or less a guarantee of permanent employment even if it was not explicitly stated in a public servants contract. The reality of it is, the country and his dog knew that if you signed a permanent contract in the Public Sector you were there for life unless you chose otherwise.

Sadly in the current climate, job security cannot be afforded by the Irish taxpayer and as a result I'd imagine those on temporary contracts won't have them renewed. I very much doubt whether any current permanent public servants will be made redundant. They'll have their wages cut but at the end of the day its highly likely they'll continue to have a job. Which is something a person in the private sector who has been made redundant would value quite a lot. See Aer Lingus for a current reference.

ei.sdraob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's simply not nice to wish ill on anybody, and it is particularly unpleasant to gloat in anticipation of somebody's misfortune.

Do you really need to have that explained to you?

isnt that exactly what public sector unions are doing?

by threatening chaos and holding country ransom so they continue to get paid fat salaries (for most part)

the **** would really hit the fan if someone dies because of more strikes or a bank gets robbed or something bad happens due to front-line staff striking

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

isnt that exactly what public sector unions are doing?

No

the **** would really hit the fan if someone dies because of more strikes or a bank gets robbed or something bad happens due to front-line staff striking

why? do bureaucrats tackle armed raiders now?

Riskymove

cson wrote: »

The reality is that a public servant has never claimed social welfare - i.e. a public servant has never been made unwillingly redundant.

reality?

Sadly in the current climate, job security cannot be afforded by the Irish taxpayer

why not?