BIFFO is the cleverest and mot cunning of them all.

Darragh29

Rujib1 wrote: »

Well, the unions have been taken to the cleaners by our BIFFO. They have postponed their second days shopping in Newery, they have spilt their guts as to how to reform the public service, increase productivity, admitted in public that they are overstaffed by virtue of being able to take 12 days off!!

Then when all is in the public domain, BIFFO says thanks but no thanks lads. Yer's gettin a 6% pay slash next week and get over it :D

How on earth will the unions get out of public service reform in future, having shown all their cards at this begging bowl show over the past few days.

I'd say Jack O Connor is yesterday's man and Beggs, and Doran.
I tell ya, that garlic Lenihan is on is mightystuff alltogether.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1204/breaking11.htm

He made a mistake sitting down with these clowns in the first place. What was needed here was a decision and a commitment to execute the decision without fear or favour. What we got was a few weeks of sh*te talk and dithering. He should have knocked ths "12 days leave" rubbish on the head before the sentence was even finished...

Fulton Crown

ei.sdraob wrote: »

just like Union leaders with their 6 figure salaries?

Too right bud !

Who was Chairman of Fas......remember.. ??

The beards got a kick up the hole today....not before it's time.

ROS123

He sat down with them to avoid strikes and in the name of 'partnership' I would say. If they could get consensus all the better. Why did the Gov entertain the 12 day proposal, it was one of the first things brought up by the unions and by all accounts on Mon or Tuesday was very much a runner until Joe Duffy blew it out of the water, the same way he did for medical cards for pensioners and tax on mobile homes. Maybe Biffo should consult with Joe before making policy. I agree that was a waste of time, it was a stupid basis to form the rest of the talks on. Who wasted the time.

The rest of the talks seemd to be constructive, they seemed to be making progress. Progress with agreement is much better all round than forcing it on the PS. It may come to the stage where it has to be forced but it will not be good for a lot of people when this happens.

themont85

If this was their plan all along FF have outdone themselves.

They have made the Unions look incredibly stupid and will make a lot of their members pissed at them.

FG have got a serious thread to walk. Already I see warning signs. They have said Cowen is a bad negotiator yet they would have us believe they would have just taken a hard line, which is ultimately what Cowen did.

Labour have played this one safe.

seclachi

themont85 wrote: »

If this was their plan all along FF have outdone themselves.

They have made the Unions look incredibly stupid and will make a lot of their members pissed at them.

FG have got a serious thread to walk. Already I see warning signs. They have said Cowen is a bad negotiator yet they would have us believe they would have just taken a hard line, which is ultimately what Cowen did.

Labour have played this one safe.

Theres a point in poker when you have played so badly, and played so many bad hands that people believe you`ll never get a good hand and call your bluff. Thats all that happened in this case.

themont85

seclachi wrote: »

Theres a point in poker when you have played so badly, and played so many bad hands that people believe you`ll never get a good hand and call your bluff. Thats all that happened in this case.

I think this will lead to them doing well in the polls. For public service workers it shows they tried to make a deal but the unions scuppered it and tried to cut an unequal deal. Fine Gael are the ones who are trying to model themselves as the guys who'll sort the PS and they obviousely thought they were going to have a field day with it. But now (because FG were always going to give out about the results) they look hypocritical as they are criticising BIFFO as a bad negotiator.

The timeline of events imo shows this was pre medatated;

-Unions jubilantly announce the unpaid leave, this obviousely invokes a reaction. Government sees FG and the Unions play their hand and then denies.
-I doubt Harney in particular would have stayed if such a deal was really a possibility.

jake59

It seems FF and BIFFO have been very lucky here. I can't believe that this was their plan all along. Maybe it was and the plan started way back when FF decided they would run this country into the ground through huge wastage and expansion of the bubble til it burst just to get to this point to give BIFFO his day in the sun. The gombeen men running this country had this situation handed to them on a plate today. Pure luck for them and terrible management of the situation by the unions..

leninbenjamin

All this shows is how f*cking reactionary Irish voters are if they actually think Cowen and FF did good here.

God help us all...

K-9

ardmacha wrote: »

This forum is amazing, people are simultaneously criticising proposals for short time for the public service because they are all needed while at the same time wondering why there are no redundancies.

Because companies are using redundancies, wage/hour cuts, cuts in productivity bonuses etc. to cut Labour costs.

Unions have now pointed out to the public that unpaid leave is ok with them.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

I think this situation is the effect that having a virtual back bench revolt happening because for once the Irish people didn't take it in the ass. I think a lot of FF'ers were surprised at the extremely negative response to the "12 unpaid days of Christmas" carol being sung by the bearded choir got from their loyal supporters and realised that if they didn't do something about this whatever chance of them getting re-elected would be in the bin quicker than the carcass of the spent Turkey on the 26th of December.

Biffo was bent over and awaiting the affectionate reach around from one of his social partners before the backbenchers piped up.

Agreed.
I'd also say Lenihan has FF leadership dreams and is gaining in popularity amongst the back benchers.I'd imagine he was stoking them up on this one and was opposed to the 12 days leave mullarkey..

I'm glad this was the outcome though and essentially agree with the op in the sense that the union crap has been revealed by the unions themselves as crap now.
I've every sympathy for nurses - but really that Doran chap is doing them a total dis service every time he opens his mouth.

The bottom line is,we can only afford what we can pay for and that means changes have to be made to live within that budget.

seclachi

themont85 wrote: »

I think this will lead to them doing well in the polls. For public service workers it shows they tried to make a deal but the unions scuppered it and tried to cut an unequal deal. Fine Gael are the ones who are trying to model themselves as the guys who'll sort the PS and they obviousely thought they were going to have a field day with it. But now (because FG were always going to give out about the results) they look hypocritical as they are criticising BIFFO as a bad negotiator.

The timeline of events imo shows this was pre medatated;

-Unions jubilantly announce the unpaid leave, this obviousely invokes a reaction. Government sees FG and the Unions play their hand and then denies.
-I doubt Harney in particular would have stayed if such a deal was really a possibility.

Seems to me like another short term gain, the unions wont talk again if they feel there just being baited, more over, they`ll just try and block any reforms to the best of there ability out of spite.

In my view he should have either talked or let them strike. He could have then played it by cutting the wages of the more affluent workers and gained support from the lower levels. The again, maybe he will, its all to be decided still.

gerry28

themont85 wrote: »

I think this will lead to them doing well in the polls. For public service workers it shows they tried to make a deal but the unions scuppered it and tried to cut an unequal deal.

I think this is a disaster for FF in terms of support from PS workers. I'm raging at them for messing us around, they tried to pull the wool over our eyes here.

They were never serious about a deal.

ntlbell

gerry28 wrote: »

I think this is a disaster for FF in terms of support from PS workers. I'm raging at them for messing us around, they tried to pull the wool over our eyes here.

They were never serious about a deal.

they're serious about a deal.

that deals need to save 1.3bn

the unions that you pay your money to were not capable of coming up with something that could save 1.3bn

do you know why?

because the ps are over paid, so that needs to be addressed.

it will be.

population

leninbenjamin wrote: »

All this shows is how f*cking reactionary Irish voters are if they actually think Cowen and FF did good here.

God help us all...

Couldn't agree more. I am convinced Cowen is the most inept, intellectually challenged and cowardly Taoiseach we have ever had. This was not a well played game of poker. This is a case of flip flopping due to the fear of his time as leader and indeed FF's existence being brought to a close by the backbenchers who were rightly getting it in the ear from their constituents.

The next move will tell alot. If it is a blanket 5% cut then he is an idiot. In some cases it should be in excess of a 30% cut (starting with his own), in some cases a 5% cut and in instances of being on a 20'000 euro salary a cut of 0%. Also particularly in relation to the HSE, there need to be redundencies. Tenure needs to be abolished as it leads to laziness and the whole culture has to change.

I doubt he will implement any of this though and whatever minimal amount he does it will just limp us along to the next crisis.

Rujib1

granturismo wrote: »

66% of the private service have not taken any pain.

Listen mate, we have all taken pain. Thing is we actually have a pain threshold which is well above our knees. We just stumble a little when we gat an economic belt, dust ourselves down, reinvent ourselves and get on with it.

You lot ...... welcome to the real world. Actually to be fair, I think PS workers as individuals are willing to get on with it, but those prats you have as union leaders are just total muppets, leading you all up a blind alley.

Rujib1

Angrybastard wrote: »

No I'm not going to resign, but any changes government try to push through will not be met favourably.

Angrybollix, where were you and your colleagues, with making change when you were getting all that benchmarkinmg lolly. Fact is that this 12 days shopping in Newry lark was all a con. You still wouldnt have changed. PS is a broken record.

Hope BIFFO and Lenny, keep up the pressure now you are on the ropes.

Rujib1

gerry28 wrote: »

I think this is a disaster for FF in terms of support from PS workers. I'm raging at them for messing us around, they tried to pull the wool over our eyes here.

They were never serious about a deal.

Suppose the beards were actually serious about "transforming the PS". Wouldn't happen in a million years. Waffle, waffle and lip service. Expect the private sector to generate the lolly to keep ya all in the soft like to which ya have become accustomed to,.

MayoForSam

Rujib1 wrote: »

Hope BIFFO and Lenny, keep up the pressure now you are on the ropes.

FF are like an old heavyweight that has been around for years being pummeled on the ropes by another old grizzly but managed to land a lucky shot just when grizzly looked to have it won and had let down his guard.

I don't believe for one minute that Cowen and co. are the most cunning and devious of them all. Very little evidence before today if so.

Let's just say we all got a welcome break from tradition today, but its a long way back. A targeted PS pay rate reduction (biggest cut for the fat cat managers and 'lifers', lowest or none for the low-paid front line staff) is essential though next week. Maybe even the poor PS pensioners might have to contribute a bit as well (not before time).

I never saw so many glum-looking faces coming out of government buildings today, made my week .

irish_bob

ardmacha wrote: »

Guess which one the government, elected by the people, chose. The government never proposed spending a decent amount on education by European standards and the teachers only got pay increases in line with other workers in the economy.

when you say other workers , what you mean are a grand a week construction workers , of course while the teachers boom time wages continued , the brickies and carpenters are on the scrap heap nearly two years

we had malfunding in this country , not underfunding , all the money went on wages so we had to settle for less beds and blackboards

irish_bob

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Resist change at all costs pal...it's the way forward...no matter that circumstances have CHANGED drastically...

I'll tell you where the changes will be met favourably....by John Q Taxpayer thats who.

been quite a while since the opinion of joh q taxpayer was listened to , perhaps today is a turning point , i was begining to think that public sector workers votes counted double

themont85

MayoForSam wrote: »

FF are like an old heavyweight that has been around for years being pummeled on the ropes by another old grizzly but managed to land a lucky shot just when grizzly looked to have it won and had let down his guard.

I don't believe for one minute that Cowen and co. are the most cunning and devious of them all. Very little evidence before today if so.

Let's just say we all got a welcome break from tradition today, but its a long way back. A targeted PS pay rate reduction (biggest cut for the fat cat managers and 'lifers', lowest or none for the low-paid front line staff) is essential though next week. Maybe even the poor PS pensioners might have to contribute a bit as well (not before time).

I never saw so many glum-looking faces coming out of government buildings today, made my week .

The reason I think they were intentionally being devious was because they didn't trumpet any deal or potential one, they allowed the Unions to do this. I remember thinking how this deal would all but end FF for a lot of people ever (I know most here hate them and think they never should be voted for again but this board isn't as much a broad indicator of public support as we think). It was suicide and FF are a popular swing party with little principle.

I though at least one of either Harney or Lenihan would resign over it because it flied in their faces. It was obvious back bench support would be difficult. Also the timing, how at lunch time it could go from 'nearly a deal signed' to 2 and half hours later been completely totalled is a indicator for me.

I dislike FF but they are devious ****ers and have proved it time and time again.

irish_bob

ROS123 wrote: »

He sat down with them to avoid strikes and in the name of 'partnership' I would say. If they could get consensus all the better. Why did the Gov entertain the 12 day proposal, it was one of the first things brought up by the unions and by all accounts on Mon or Tuesday was very much a runner until Joe Duffy blew it out of the water, the same way he did for medical cards for pensioners and tax on mobile homes. Maybe Biffo should consult with Joe before making policy. I agree that was a waste of time, it was a stupid basis to form the rest of the talks on. Who wasted the time.

The rest of the talks seemd to be constructive, they seemed to be making progress. Progress with agreement is much better all round than forcing it on the PS. It may come to the stage where it has to be forced but it will not be good for a lot of people when this happens.

you cant make progress or come to agreement with people who dont have the intests of the country as a whole at heart , the unions basic premise was that the public sectors boom time wages should be maintained in a time of rescession regardless of the cost to everyone else , it was and is a bogus and immoral standpoint , the unions represent a cossetted minority , cowen is meant to represent everyone

jenzz

frman wrote: »

What we need is to reduce the deficit.

If strikes happen, so be it.


And the Country wont grind to a halt either.

Well if we have no schools, police stations, hospitals, doctors, nurses etc etc for a week if they call an all out strike are we not at a stand still. Parents taking days off work to mind kids etc etc. Just my iopinion anyone. I just feel we are heading into murky waters. I agree reduce deficit. I agree to standing up & being heard. But I agree to fairness. The salarys our politicians are on, The amount of money wasted in this country. Surely cut the waste & save a few bob.......

Bogger77

jenzz wrote: »

Well if we have no schools, police stations, hospitals, doctors, nurses etc etc for a week if they call an all out strike are we not at a stand still. Parents taking days off work to mind kids etc etc. Just my iopinion anyone. I just feel we are heading into murky waters. I agree reduce deficit. I agree to standing up & being heard. But I agree to fairness. The salarys our politicians are on, The amount of money wasted in this country. Surely cut the waste & save a few bob.......

the maths is quite simple, and for me, the best part is it costs the union money, not me John Q Tax-Payer, of private service.
When the public service go on strike, they don't get paid obviously, so there's 5 days unpaid leave straight away, and unions will have to pay their members from the kitty.

Result

plus, do you think the strikers will get much sympathy, they got very little last time, and that was before their "leaders" admitted that 3 days a year unpaid wouldnt harm services!

dan_d

Strike away. Save the country a few more million. A week with no wage AND a paycut will make people realise pretty damn quick it's better to be working on a reduced wage than no wage at all. God knows the rest of us have put up with enough hardship in the last year, 5 days of no public sector is something we could live with.

Definitely agree that the people at the top should have their money reduced like hell. No point in taking 10% off someone on 21k a year. I'll be happy as long as they start from the top down.

Thanks heavens they actually had the balls to stand up to the unions.Cowen's a smart fecker (notice how he waited til after we all voted in Lisbon to start the PS paycut notion)......doesn't mean I'll be voting for them again though. However I have felt all along they created this mess, so they should be made clean it up, rather than dancing off into the sunset. What have FF got to lose at this stage? They're pretty much at rock bottom.

irish_bob

jenzz wrote: »

Well if we have no schools, police stations, hospitals, doctors, nurses etc etc for a week if they call an all out strike are we not at a stand still. Parents taking days off work to mind kids etc etc. Just my iopinion anyone. I just feel we are heading into murky waters. I agree reduce deficit. I agree to standing up & being heard. But I agree to fairness. The salarys our politicians are on, The amount of money wasted in this country. Surely cut the waste & save a few bob.......

any public servants who engage in prolonged strikes should be sacked without redundancy , put it this way , if wages are not reduced and we simply carry on with our heads in the sand , the evil day will arrive when thier is no money to pay nurses , guards etc , they are going to have to deal with cuts regardless , its not a question of if but when

Drumpot

Wonder if we will ever find out if this was intentional or not . .

Its a knee jerk reaction to say Biffo got lucky or hes stupid and inept . . Remember, if thats what people think of him, what do they think of the people of the country that voted in the clowns that put the "ringmaster" in charge ?

I rate Cowen as a minister, but as a leader he has been found wanting . .

That said, I wouldn't put it past him, if his party did hope something like this would happen . .

Still though . . It has to rank as one of the biggest own goals in Union History . . "We can maintain our high standards of service with 12 less days" . . Ha . . Just shows how ridiculously out of touch the heads of unions are . . .

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

you cant make progress or come to agreement with people who dont have the intests of the country as a whole at heart ,

And you reckon IBEC, Bankers, Politicans, Big Business etc. have the best interests of the country as their prioirity. Cop on to your self. Unions are not unique in taking care of their own interests.


A lot of public servants are willing to take another pay cut. What they are afraid of is if they put up no fight it will give carte blanche to our leaders to come after them again and again and again.

The unpaid leave option was a disiaster and should never have been put on the table. It was going to be a nightmare to administer across all workplaces and was vague on actual savings.

The unions allowed them selves be walked up the garden path. They were seriously out manouvered by Cowen. He got the strike called off on Thursday and with the budget now looming can now implement what he wanted all along i.e straight paycuts. It was a huge tactical victory.

However there will know be absolutely no trust between the unions and government. The future reforms they will look for will now be met with huge suspicion.My own workplace over the last 10 years took on huge changes and additional skills and roles. This obviously has not been the same everywhere.

The fun and games will start when the new reform options are being negotiated in an atmosphere of complete mistrust after todays episode

pitcher

jenzz wrote: »

Well if we have no schools, police stations, hospitals, doctors, nurses etc etc for a week if they call an all out strike are we not at a stand still. Parents taking days off work to mind kids etc etc. Just my iopinion anyone. I just feel we are heading into murky waters. I agree reduce deficit. I agree to standing up & being heard. But I agree to fairness. The salarys our politicians are on, The amount of money wasted in this country. Surely cut the waste & save a few bob.......

What about the tens of thousands of private sector workers who find themselves unemployed through no fault of there own without ever having any option of striking and what would we have done if they all had.

sk8board

granturismo wrote: »

66% of the private service have not taken any pain.

even if that were true, 33% of private sector is about 600k people, with easily as many more private sector with little or no job security. thats 1.2m people.

as compared to the protection of the 360k or so people in the PS. There were only 260k people in the PS when Ahern took over in '97. Thats where they should be aiming for again, more or less.

on a separate note, I was reading the RTE 'exclusive' at 2pm today that a deal was done and I was ABSOLUTELY disgusted with the contents of this supposed document they had.

then FF pulled a fast one, and my heart rate and anger receeded.

anyone listening to Comrade Jack on Newstalk this AM would hear how out of touch Mr Monotone really is. He thinks someone is out to get him (maybe thats why himself and Ahern got on so well!)