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BIFFO is the cleverest and mot cunning of them all.
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@OP, who's going to Newery, sorry Newry?
BIFFO a clever man? what if the negotiations had concluded in advance of the budget and the budget went ahead, would BIFFO be the cleverest man in Ireland, he's a victim of circumstance. He's not controlling events.0 -
I didn't and don't have time to read the whole thread right now.
I just wanted to comment tho.
My sympathies are with the public sector employees who are suffering at the hands of the 2nd most incompetent government (2nd only to Bertie's) and the most inept Union leaders.
I believe the pay cuts had to be made, but reform needs to be made too.
People should be paid according to their worth/performance.
The Union leaders and the government have displayed as much flexibility as a brick.
Many people in the Public Service are going to be struggling (along with the private sector people) because of Brian Cowen's incompetence during his time as Minister for Finance, and mostly, because of Bertie Ahern.
Imo, Brian Cowen is the most incompetent leader we've ever seen. Bertie was competent at being a rat, but Brian Cowen is just incapable.
The whole approach to this has been like a butcher with a cleaver, rather than a surgeon with a scalpel.
I hope all the Public Sector people will remember who has gotten them into this mess the next time they are expected to vote.
And I hope they will be equally as vocal now that its time to focus on the of reform the private sector.
Take a cleaver to the Rip Off Republic, this sham of a country is on its last legs now and all it needs is a good hard kick to knock the rotten carcass over.
We need to start rebuilding this country from the foundations upward, and everybody has a part to play.0 -
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »I hope all the Public Sector people will remember who has gotten them into this mess the next time they are expected to vote.
My big fear is that this FF government will duck and dive and cut and plasterband this country for the next 2 years. Then a few months before the next election claim green shoots, offer a few carrots to the people and get voted in for another term.
They do not deserve to govern a country they have alomst destroyed.0 -
My big fear is that this FF government will duck and dive and cut and plasterband this country for the next 2 years. Then a few months before the next election claim green shoots, offer a few carrots to the people and get voted in for another term.
They do not deserve to govern a country they have alomst destroyed.
To be honest, I believe the pain is only starting right now.
That was the first shot.
Now that the banks are recapitalised and the repossessions will start, and 4 billion cuts per year for the next 3 years.......................well, I think the pain has only started.
I believe there is far worse to come yet.0 -
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If Brian Cowen has been clever then God help us if he ever has a lapse into stupidity. The two weeks off without pay nonsense was a surrender to the unions, but Cowen tried to make it sound like a wonderful deal because it avoided the planned strike. Lenihan immediately scuppered him by announcing that the PS cuts would go ahead. Period. Then there was an explosion of public outrage that made it plain even to Brian that it just wasn't going to happen whatever he or the unions said. All he has achieved is to convince a large part of the population and a number of his own TDs that he is incompetent to lead, and successfully alienated the unions and the public service workers who will probably never trust his word again.
But to blame the union leaders for the shambles is niaive. They are paid to defend the interests of their members, just as a company director is obliged to defend the interests of his shareholders. It is not their job to sort out the mess this country is in. That is what we have a government for (or thought we had!).0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »To be honest, I believe the pain is only starting right now.
That was the first shot.
.
When your the highest paid person in europe in your position.
you're not feeling any pain.0 -
When your the highest paid person in europe in your position.
you're not feeling any pain.
I believe pay cuts had to be made, there is no other way, I'm as aware of the bottom line as anybody.
But regardless, there is no ignoring the fact that everybody is now suffering because of the short sightedness and incompetence of Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen, and the Union leaders.
A lot of these people are now gonna be screwed for life with massive mortgages and obligations they cannot honour, due to contracts which Fianna Fail negotiated with them and agreed to.
Fianna Fail and the Union leaders have gotten the average worker into this mess with unrealistic benchmarking and the like, and now instead of reform and surgical precision, its like a fight between 2 drunk butchers with a cleaver.
So, I believe the correct course of action has been taken with cuts, but there is a complete absence of reform. I'm not ignoring the reality of our budget deficit, merely sympathizing with people who have been screwed over at the hands of Fianna Fail (337,000 of them).
The worst possible outcome would be people believing that Fianna Fail have done the right thing. The electorate, public & private, need to remember who created this mess.
Fianna Fail need to be put into the wilderness for the next decade at least. And people should stop paying their Trade union subscriptions to incompetent Union leaders.0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »I believe pay cuts had to be made, there is no other way, I'm as aware of the bottom line as anybody.
But regardless, there is no ignoring the fact that everybody is now suffering because of the short sightedness and incompetence of Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen, and the Union leaders.
A lot of these people are now gonna be screwed for life with massive mortgages and obligations they cannot honour, due to contracts which Fianna Fail negotiated with them and agreed to.
Fianna Fail and the Union leaders have gotten the average worker into this mess with unrealistic benchmarking and the like, and now instead of reform and surgical precision, its like a fight between 2 drunk butchers with a cleaver.
So, I believe the correct course of action has been taken with cuts, but there is a complete absence of reform. I'm not ignoring the reality of our budget deficit, merely sympathizing with people who have been screwed over at the hands of Fianna Fail (337,000 of them).
The worst possible outcome would be people believing that Fianna Fail have done the right thing. The electorate, public & private, need to remember who created this mess.
Fianna Fail need to be put into the wilderness for the next decade at least. And people should stop paying their Trade union subscriptions to incompetent Union leaders.
the unions have proven where reform can made.
so they can't start complaining now should FF do it.
but the unions said they won't go along with it if they're not getting what they want, so who's holding back reform?
yes people are up to thier eyes in debt, that's their own fault. no one forced anyone to get into debt and get huge mortgages and re-mortgage.
that's choices they made personally.0 -
the unions have proven where reform can made.
so they can't start complaining now should FF do it.
but the unions said they won't go along with it if they're not getting what they want, so who's holding back reform?
yes people are up to thier eyes in debt, that's their own fault. no one forced anyone to get into debt and get huge mortgages and re-mortgage.
that's choices they made personally.
I think that's oversimplifying things, based on the reason I outlined above, but I don't see much point in discussing it further, so I will agree to disagree.0 -
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »I think that's oversimplifying things, based on the reason I outlined above, but I don't see much point in discussing it further, so I will agree to disagree.
it is?
they pointed out what they could do, they showed that everyone in the PS could take 12 days off and still get the job done.
then they stated that they were not willing to do anything about reform as they didn't get what they wanted?
how is it anymore complicated?
people choose to get into debt or not and how much of it.
how is this complicated?
it really doesn't get anymore straight forward, you know, personal responibility0 -
it is?
they pointed out what they could do, they showed that everyone in the PS could take 12 days off and still get the job done.
then they stated that they were not willing to do anything about reform as they didn't get what they wanted?
how is it anymore complicated?
About this I don't disagree, I had a similar post here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63342290&postcount=25
people choose to get into debt or not and how much of it.
how is this complicated?
it really doesn't get anymore straight forward, you know, personal responibility
About this I don't agree so easily, I think this is oversimplified.
If you have a permanent position in the PS, and the government & unions have bench-marked forward your salary x over a number of years, you do not then expect it to be subtracted by y% over the immediate subsequent number of years.
If I go out and sign up to a large mortgage with my private sector job, then yes, it is pretty much all my mess, as there is no job security in the private sector, my contract can expire, the terms can rapidly change from day to day etc.
In the Public Sector, its not so straightforward.
So if you've been personally responsible and took out to get a mortgage for a standard 3 bed semi-d for your young family, that's been well within your means based on a government contract, passed even the most rigorous stress testing, then the government renege on your contract, and deduct by y% over a number of years, well, then your left hanging.
Then interest rates rise, as your pay declines simultaneously, and your left with an obligation you can no longer honour, due to extraordinary circumstances.
You can disagree about the extent of the stress testing - to what extent should you be obliged to stress test, to what level of extraordinary circumstances - recession, depression, world war 3?
I don't disagree that the bench-marking was wrong, it was, but they did it.
Where does accountability come into it? The same government who so stupidly implemented it, cannot just simply wash their hands of it and the same Minister for Finance who implemented, cannot just simply shrug his shoulders as Taoiseach and hide from the media for 2 years.
Nor can the current Minister for Finance justify a 3% increase for bank employees, in the same extraordinary circumstances where public servants are taking wage reductions.
The nails in the coffin then would be the contempt with which the government have treated the electorate via:
i) gross waste of public funds,
ii) gross overspending on projects with seemingly little accountability,
iii) gross abuse of expenses by Ministers with no accountability (bar JOD which had to be called by the opposition)
iv) Commisioning the McCarthy report and then discarding it to the bin
v) little to no reform in other areas of public expenditure
vi) still running a FAS operation costing €1 billion per year, which by all accounts is useless and is yet again under investigation.
vii) no commitment to reform of the HSE & the notoriously broken institutions
etc.
etc.
etc.
Then there is the issue of performance.
You perform better than any of your colleagues in your department.
Everyone gets reverse bench-marked regardless of performance, this doesn't happen in the private sector.
The guy who never meets his sales targets is let go, the guy who surpasses his sales targets might take a smaller salary or bonuses.
So what is the solution?
I'm not sure, perhaps the government would agree to a policy where they deduct mortgage assistance payments from the Public servants current pension entitlements, in order to prevent them losing their home.
Gold plated pensions are great when you retire, but it doesn't mean much if your family is on the street in the present.
As I said, I agree that pay cuts had to happen (I've been arguing it here for the best part of a year).
But it was supposed to be a surgical operation, not a brawl between two drunk butchers, which has defeated the whole purpose of the reform, especially when talks should have started 12 months ago, not 4 weeks ago.0 -
it is?
they pointed out what they could do, they showed that everyone in the PS could take 12 days off and still get the job done.
I don't think they actually "showed" anything.
For a start nobody believed that services wouldn't suffer if this plan went ahead.
They said a lot of stuff, however its not quite the same thing.0 -
If Brian Cowen has been clever then God help us if he ever has a lapse into stupidity. The two weeks off without pay nonsense was a surrender to the unions, but Cowen tried to make it sound like a wonderful deal because it avoided the planned strike. Lenihan immediately scuppered him by announcing that the PS cuts would go ahead. Period. Then there was an explosion of public outrage that made it plain even to Brian that it just wasn't going to happen whatever he or the unions said. All he has achieved is to convince a large part of the population and a number of his own TDs that he is incompetent to lead, and successfully alienated the unions and the public service workers who will probably never trust his word again.
But to blame the union leaders for the shambles is niaive. They are paid to defend the interests of their members, just as a company director is obliged to defend the interests of his shareholders. It is not their job to sort out the mess this country is in. That is what we have a government for (or thought we had!).
anyone hear eoghan harris on newstalk last friday , the most astonishing level of spin i think ive ever head in my life , he painted cowen as this strategic mastermind who wrong footed both the unions and the media into thinking he had surrendered but instead was playing everyone all along
i often agree with harris but on this occasion he attempted to make chicken soup out of chicken ****0 -
We don't really know what went on behind the scenes but even if it was all engineered by Cowen, which is unlikely, it would merely show a short-term tactical cleverness. There's no master plan to undermine the unions here. One of the depressing things about a lot of commentary is that many people (on both sides of the public/private sector divide) think Cowen has it in for the public sector and is seeking to undermine them, whereas if anything he would love to throw money at them in order to buy popularity.0
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thank christ that the ordinary members of the public came together and showed that they werent going to take this,as this story was on the front page of the sunday independent today,we where very closed to been screwed
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-how-the-cabinet-was-split-1965693.htmlRevealed: how the Cabinet was split
Public outrage, backbencher unrest and 5-8 divide at table tipped balance
By LIAM COLLINS EXCLUSIVE
Sunday December 06 2009
The twin pressures of a deeply divided Cabinet and an unprecedented public outcry forced Taoiseach Brian Cowen to break off talks with the trade unions on unpaid leave for civil servants.
It is understood that the Cabinet last Tuesday afternoon was divided on the proposal by five votes to eight, with one minister uncommitted.
Mr Cowen, Tanaiste Mary Coughlan and ministers Batt O'Keeffe, Eamon O Cuiv and Brendan Smith were all in favour of continuing the partnership talks with the unions on the controversial issue.
But opposed to the proposal were ministers Brian Lenihan, Martin Cullen, Mary Hanafin, Willie O'Dea, Dermot Ahern and Mary Harney as well as the two Greens, John Gormley and Eamon Ryan.
Minister Micheal Martin was believed not to have come down strongly either way.
Rapidly mounting pressure from private sector workers and constituents was reflected in a heated Fianna Fail parliamentary party meeting on Thursday evening where TDs referred to the growing anger of the public which had been pouring in all day to their constituency offices.
"I have scarcely experienced any issue on which opinions were so strongly expressed or that caused so much concern at a parliamentary party meeting" said one insider.
"Even the social welfare classes were outraged at this proposal."
After totting up the numbers, ministers and TDs were conscious of the 317,000 public servants against the 1.7 million in the private sector and 428,000 people on the dole.
Health Minister Mary Harney has been identified as being one of the most vocal opponents of the 'unpaid leave' proposal which was tabled by the unions at the beginning of the week.
As public opposition grew, a number of Fianna Fail members of the Cabinet and then the Greens "got windy" at the prospect of selling the deal, particularly to private-sector workers, but also to those on the dole.
At the same time Fianna Fail TDs were getting a flood of calls from angry constituents.
"You wouldn't believe the hostility there was towards teachers; parents of kids in particular were going mad at the prospect of these people getting 12 more days off," said one source.
There was also a desire from backbench TDs to "get the pain over" and they felt that the deal was unlikely to land the €1.3bn cut in the public pay bill.
"We're desperately trying to salvage the economy and keep the IMF out.
"The Budget is going to have to add up, there's no room to wobble here," said one senior figure.
Ministers are now bracing themselves for at least a year of discontent from the unions -- but one senior politician warned: "The real struggle will happen in the longer term when we have to cut another €4bn."
Among the public service unions there was clear anger at the collapse of the talks.
According to one, there was "a clear acceptance" among union leaders of the need for public sector reform and they believe they could have delivered a package that would cut the public service pay bill in the long term.
"We might be waiting another 20 years for that now" said one.
- LIAM COLLINS EXCLUSIVE0 -
SkepticOne wrote: »We don't really know what went on behind the scenes but even if it was all engineered by Cowen, which is unlikely, it would merely show a short-term tactical cleverness. There's no master plan to undermine the unions here. One of the depressing things about a lot of commentary is that many people (on both sides of the public/private sector divide) think Cowen has it in for the public sector and is seeking to undermine them, whereas if anything he would love to throw money at them in order to buy popularity.
cowen has been SMITHERS like in his defference to the unions and has repeatedly spoke of his regard for social partnership and of his wish to see it maintained , trust me , had thier been any other alternative to pay cuts , biffo would have chosen it , as moore mcdowell said today on radio , its on of the upsides to the rescession , fianna fail can no longer simply throw money at problems0 -
SkepticOne wrote: »We don't really know what went on behind the scenes but even if it was all engineered by Cowen, which is unlikely, it would merely show a short-term tactical cleverness. There's no master plan to undermine the unions here. One of the depressing things about a lot of commentary is that many people (on both sides of the public/private sector divide) think Cowen has it in for the public sector and is seeking to undermine them, whereas if anything he would love to throw money at them in order to buy popularity.
hmmmm....I used to think that, but I'm not so sure anymore.
At this stage, I think Cowen is just grossly incompetent and people find this difficult to accept. Its just too simple. Screw Occams razor anyway.
Its interesting that you outlined that view above, because I held similar views until recently.
A lot of private sector people spoke about how the Unions have held the government to ransom.
But having spoken to a few Civil Servants/Public servants on Saturday, they were claiming that this is actually the work of IBEC/ISME etc. who were holding the government to ransom (SEE HERE, HERE, HERE).
Its part of their grand scheme to depress wages and increase their profits from the RIP OFF REPUBLIC, which from a PubSec point of view seems equally as reliable as many of the theories I had coming from a private sector point of view.
Now that I don't believe that theory either, but when you step back and see the claims on both sides, it does leave me scratching my head, wondering where the middle line and the truth is.
Both sides have their interests.
And the government are in the middle.
And my only explanation for the way this current government operates is incompetence.
The only person who has seemed to be competent has been Brian Lenihan, who seems to have been masterful in his work around the bank guarantees and NAMA, but from reading the property pin and Ronan Lyons, Morgan Kelly etc., I'm starting to think that NAMA is going to be a bigger failure than most of us had previously fathomed anyway.
[This whole mess is far from resolved.]
confused,
dannyboy83
p.s.
Micheal Martin seems to be doing anything and everything not to be associated with this current government.Minister Micheal Martin was believed not to have come down strongly either way.0 -
Speaking on RTÉ today, Mr Begg said what was discussed were "lay-offs" for 12 days, adding these operated in the private sector and not "a remarkable unknown concept being brought to the talks".
My god, this complete gombeen is still pressing with the unpaid leave idea.
I'd say he'd do anything to avoid a bit of hard thinking.
Useless!
Public service people should stop paying their Trade union subscriptions to incompetent Union leaders.0 -
Micheal Martin just said on TV, that he wasn't even at that meeting and that indo article is nonsense.
Still refused to clarify his position tho.0 -
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Everything printed by the Irish Independent these days is utter tripe with rubbish being spouted by lazy journalists who cannot be bothered to research or check their facts. Join the public sector boycott of all newspapers owned by the Independent Media Group until they decide to employ people capable of doing more than spout their own personal poisonous vitriol.0
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »I didn't and don't have time to read the whole thread right now.
I just wanted to comment tho.
My sympathies are with the public sector employees who are suffering at the hands of the 2nd most incompetent government (2nd only to Bertie's) and the most inept Union leaders.
I believe the pay cuts had to be made, but reform needs to be made too.
People should be paid according to their worth/performance.
The Union leaders and the government have displayed as much flexibility as a brick.
Many people in the Public Service are going to be struggling (along with the private sector people) because of Brian Cowen's incompetence during his time as Minister for Finance, and mostly, because of Bertie Ahern.
Imo, Brian Cowen is the most incompetent leader we've ever seen. Bertie was competent at being a rat, but Brian Cowen is just incapable.
The whole approach to this has been like a butcher with a cleaver, rather than a surgeon with a scalpel.
I hope all the Public Sector people will remember who has gotten them into this mess the next time they are expected to vote.
And I hope they will be equally as vocal now that its time to focus on the of reform the private sector.
Take a cleaver to the Rip Off Republic, this sham of a country is on its last legs now and all it needs is a good hard kick to knock the rotten carcass over.
We need to start rebuilding this country from the foundations upward, and everybody has a part to play.
The unions paied lip service to PS reform during the boom years and the wads of benchmarking lolly Bertie threw at them. Now they expect the rest of us to believe they will change their spots, after they have spent 12 days shopping in Newry in 2010.
I think the fundamental point is that they are incapable of real reform, and now average Joe in the street knows them for what they are.0 -
I think it's disgraceful pitting the public sector against the private sector. It is foolish to believe everything we read. I am a public sector worker and i have no job security. My partner is a private sector worker and he has not suffered reduced hours or a pay cut at all. I think in the interests of fairness we should tax everyone earning above teh average industrial wage, private and public sector, and increase the rate and the salaries go up, and leave the very low earners alone.0
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The unions paied lip service to PS reform during the boom years and the wads of benchmarking lolly Bertie threw at them. Now they expect the rest of us to believe they will change their spots, after they have spent 12 days shopping in Newry in 2010.
I think the fundamental point is that they are incapable of real reform, and now average Joe in the street knows them for what they are.
Change comes from the top.
A fish rots from the head.
Large swathes of the private sector are equally as guilty as the public sector.
I can't be arsed to reiterate my points again so I'll agree to disagree with anyone who sees otherwise.0 -
I think it's disgraceful pitting the public sector against the private sector. It is foolish to believe everything we read. I am a public sector worker and i have no job security. My partner is a private sector worker and he has not suffered reduced hours or a pay cut at all. I think in the interests of fairness we should tax everyone earning above teh average industrial wage, private and public sector, and increase the rate and the salaries go up, and leave the very low earners alone.
blame your own unions
they are seriously ticking people off against the whole PS by their inflammatory and downright obtuse "speeches"
thanks to them its people like your whole will suffer most, the minority that are not on perm contract and haven't climbed up the ladder0 -
The unions seem to be getting all the more deluded and paranoid by the day.Everything printed by the Irish Independent these days is utter tripe with rubbish being spouted by lazy journalists who cannot be bothered to research or check their facts. Join the public sector boycott of all newspapers owned by the Independent Media Group until they decide to employ people capable of doing more than spout their own personal poisonous vitriol.
This morning Jack O'Connor claimed that the poor image of the unions and the public service was down to a "very far right" government and a "rabidly right-wing" media, to whom they had no access. Jack O'Connor needs a few things, namely:
1. Lessons in politics - Ireland and its government are centre-left; Most of the media are even more left again.
2. Lessons in PR - You can't rant on about an inaccessible media when most of the media have given you access to rant on unchallenged for years
3. A mirror - The unions have only themselves to blame for their poor image.
Of course, when you're coming from a rabidly left-wing/socialist standpoint, everyone looks like a right-winger.
He was also claiming there was a fat-cat conspiracy controlling the actions of the government and that the needs of the vulnerable were being ignored deliberately.
Whatever credibility Jack O'Connor had as a mouthpiece is out the door now. He's a socialist crank with absolutely no ability to look at a scenario objectively.0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »Change comes from the top.
A fish rots from the head.
Large swathes of the private sector are equally as guilty as the public sector.
I can't be arsed to reiterate my points again so I'll agree to disagree with anyone who sees otherwise.
Well, I am private sector and I agree wholeheartedly with you that private sector also has to reform. Costs in private sector have to come down also. No question. But it has already happened, and continues to happen. Wages are falling.
Cost of doing business has to come down. Costs imposed by governmemt and local government needs to come down.
BIG business interests have a stranglehold on important segments of the economy.
Examples I give are based on farming as I have an interest and knowledge in this area.
Milk and beef ........... both these products leave the farm gate at below the cost of production!!! Prices have fallen over the past number of years and input costs have gone up dramatically (fertilizer etc,.).
Yet. the price in the shops does not reflect this fact! Why? Larry Goodman, Tesco, Dunnes aand a few more stawlwarts CONTROL the market.
There are many more examples I am sure.
Benefits of falling sterling and dollar are NOT passed on to consumers here!!
Why?0 -
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »hmmmm....I used to think that, but I'm not so sure anymore.
At this stage, I think Cowen is just grossly incompetent and people find this difficult to accept. Its just too simple. Screw Occams razor anyway.
Its interesting that you outlined that view above, because I held similar views until recently.
A lot of private sector people spoke about how the Unions have held the government to ransom.
But having spoken to a few Civil Servants/Public servants on Saturday, they were claiming that this is actually the work of IBEC/ISME etc. who were holding the government to ransom (SEE HERE, HERE, HERE).
Its part of their grand scheme to depress wages and increase their profits from the RIP OFF REPUBLIC, which from a PubSec point of view seems equally as reliable as many of the theories I had coming from a private sector point of view.
Now that I don't believe that theory either, but when you step back and see the claims on both sides, it does leave me scratching my head, wondering where the middle line and the truth is.
Both sides have their interests.
And the government are in the middle.
And my only explanation for the way this current government operates is incompetence.
The only person who has seemed to be competent has been Brian Lenihan, who seems to have been masterful in his work around the bank guarantees and NAMA, but from reading the property pin and Ronan Lyons, Morgan Kelly etc., I'm starting to think that NAMA is going to be a bigger failure than most of us had previously fathomed anyway.
[This whole mess is far from resolved.]
confused,
dannyboy83
p.s.
Micheal Martin seems to be doing anything and everything not to be associated with this current government.
the idea that david begg is opposing pay cuts in the public sector for fear it would lead to wage deflation in the private sector is laughable , not cutting pay in the public sector would result in pay cuts in the private sector as it would mean a hike in income taxes to fund the existing public sector pay bill , perhaps more importantly though , wages in the private sector need to come down so as to restore the countries competivness , with the property boom dead and buried , we need to refocus on exports and manufactuting as a means of both rebuilding the economy and creating jobs , this cannot happen when our wages are too high by comparison to the uk and other countries in europe which are incidentally wealthier than us0 -
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The unions seem to be getting all the more deluded and paranoid by the day.
This morning Jack O'Connor claimed that the poor image of the unions and the public service was down to a "very far right" government and a "rabidly right-wing" media, to whom they had no access. Jack O'Connor needs a few things, namely:
1. Lessons in politics - Ireland and its government are centre-left; Most of the media are even more left again.
2. Lessons in PR - You can't rant on about an inaccessible media when most of the media have given you access to rant on unchallenged for years
3. A mirror - The unions have only themselves to blame for their poor image.
Of course, when you're coming from a rabidly left-wing/socialist standpoint, everyone looks like a right-winger.
He was also claiming there was a fat-cat conspiracy controlling the actions of the government and that the needs of the vulnerable were being ignored deliberately.
Whatever credibility Jack O'Connor had as a mouthpiece is out the door now. He's a socialist crank with absolutely no ability to look at a scenario objectively.
the deeply unpleasant brendan ogle was on newstalk last friday and repeatedly refered to our goverment as being neo conservatve :eek:
this guy needs a course in political idealogy definitions
seriously though , the term right wing has become a catch all put down or insult to one,s opponents when it comes to political discourse in this country , its rather lazy and boring at this stage and has lost all meaning0
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