BIFFO is the cleverest and mot cunning of them all.

Dr Galen

i don't often agree with you bobby, but your right on the above.

The terms left and right mean nothing in this country.

I heard Jack on the radio this morning too. I think he may have lost it tbh. If someone had posted a rant like that here, we'd be moving it to CT.

Dannyboy83

irish_bob wrote: »

the idea that david begg is opposing pay cuts in the public sector for fear it would lead to wage deflation in the private sector is laughable , not cutting pay in the public sector would result in pay cuts in the private sector as it would mean a hike in income taxes to fund the existing public sector pay bill , perhaps more importantly though , wages in the private sector need to come down so as to restore the countries competivness , with the property boom dead and buried , we need to refocus on exports and manufactuting as a means of both rebuilding the economy and creating jobs , this cannot happen when our wages are too high by comparison to the uk and other countries in europe which are incidentally wealthier than us

Preaching to the choir mate, believe me, I know that all too well, I don't give the theory any credibility myself. I could write a book at this stage on why cuts need to happen.

But I was just outlining the fact that they have as equally strong beliefs as we have - just moving in the opposite direction - which is part of what is going to make this such a difficult mess to sort out in the future.
And I cannot see the incompetent Brian Cowen being the man to do it.

If Brian Cowen had made a genuine effort at talks and making sure people were not stranded in impossible situations with unpayable mortgages by using pension deductions, its unlikely the drama would have ever gotten to this stage.

masteroftherealm

Wow Ireland a Center Left Government, and a left wing media, news to me.

nice_guy80

always has been

masteroftherealm

Jeeze so Ive been living in a socialist utopia for all these years.
I must have been asleep in the left wing right wing definition classes.

K-9

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Jeeze so Ive been living in a socialist utopia for all these years.
I must have been asleep in the left wing right wing definition classes.

Sure Bertie was a Socialist.

I think its a mixture because we had FF in power for 20/22 years.

Social Partnership was a big influence in the running of the country.

Overall, we had a mix of left wing policies like second highest minimum wage, no tax or PRSI on that wage, high child benefit, high rates of SW etc.

We also had low direct tax rates, reliance on tax breaks (I include FTB Interest relief of €20,000 in that), a reliance on spending to stimulate the economy and Unions now a largely Public Sector thing.

All of these contributed to the current mess.

In summary we wanted high wages to compensate for the high cost of living, low taxes, to afford a house even if they where unaffordable, new cars even if they had huge VRT, high SW rates and fantastic public services.

We want a left wing society but right wing fiscal policies!

irish_bob

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Wow Ireland a Center Left Government, and a left wing media, news to me.

have your never noticed how unelected far left academics or even the likes of richard boyd barrett ( who only got elected to town council level recently ) have for years been given platforms on tv and radio to put across thier minority views , ciaran allen a man who has no elected mandate of any kind is regulary on tv ( vincent browne ) and radio calling on the state to confiscate private wealth on a mass scale , how many people do you think theese peoples views represent , we also have to listen to members of the poverty industry lecture us on a weekly basis on how awfull we all are that we dont pay enough tax so as to further increase social wellfare , fergus ( no child should have to wear hand me down school uniforms ) finlay is on the radio every week saying as much , a few weeks back he stated that if the goverment does not reinstate the xmas bonus , people will starve to death this chrismas , yes , he actually said this

across the board , the irish media gives a disproportionate level of airtime to left wing minority views , that it has always been this way is the reason so many people have been conditioned into believing that this is the norm and because so many on the left proclaim our media to be left wing, this is swallowed as fact

Maebh

K-9 wrote: »

Sure Bertie was a Socialist.

I think its a mixture because we had FF in power for 20/22 years.

Social Partnership was a big influence in the running of the country.

Overall, we had a mix of left wing policies like second highest minimum wage, no tax or PRSI on that wage, high child benefit, high rates of SW etc.

We also had low direct tax rates, reliance on tax breaks (I include FTB Interest relief of €20,000 in that), a reliance on spending to stimulate the economy and Unions now a largely Public Sector thing.

All of these contributed to the current mess.

In summary we wanted high wages to compensate for the high cost of living, low taxes, to afford a house even if they where unaffordable, new cars even if they had huge VRT, high SW rates and fantastic public services.

We want a left wing society but right wing fiscal policies!

Personally, I want a left wing society with left wing fiscal policies, but hey, that's just lefty craziness, right?

I really, really think you should take a look at previous speeches of Fianna Fail-ers, they are so anti-socialism it's not even funny. The only reason we have SW, CB etc is they were very politically in vogue when these things were brought in...following what the UK does and all...

You know Social Partnership is a made up phrase that applies only in Ireland and means nothing to anyone else...right?

And you know that countries with actual socialist leanings would look upon our society and be completely baffled that you could apply the term "socialist" here....

Maebh

irish_bob wrote: »

have your never noticed how unelected far left academics or even the likes of richard boyd barrett ( who only got elected to town council level recently ) have for years been given platforms on tv and radio to put across thier minority views , ciaran allen a man who has no elected mandate of any kind is regulary on tv ( vincent browne ) and radio calling on the state to confiscate private wealth on a mass scale , how many people do you think theese peoples views represent , we also have to listen to members of the poverty industry lecture us on a weekly basis on how awfull we all are that we dont pay enough tax so as to further increase social wellfare , fergus ( no child should have to wear hand me down school uniforms ) finlay is on the radio every week saying as much , a few weeks back he stated that if the goverment does not reinstate the xmas bonus , people will starve to death this chrismas , yes , he actually said this

across the board , the irish media gives a disproportionate level of airtime to left wing minority views , that it has always been this way is the reason so many people have been conditioned into believing that this is the norm and because so many on the left proclaim our media to be left wing, this is swallowed as fact

And by disproportionate, you mean any air time at all?

K-9

Maebh wrote: »

Personally, I want a left wing society with left wing fiscal policies, but hey, that's just lefty craziness, right?

I really, really think you should take a look at previous speeches of Fianna Fail-ers, they are so anti-socialism it's not even funny.

YEP, but the left wing tax rates should have been kept years ago.

Personally we should have Northern Ireland rates of tax and PRSI and probably higher. Problem is, we are trying to introduce those levels in a recession, when the horse has bolted.

Maebh wrote:

You know Social Partnership is a made up phrase that applies only in Ireland and means nothing to anyone else...right?

Yeah, that was kind of my point. I see you missed it.

Maebh wrote:

And you know that countries with actual socialist leanings would look upon our society and be completely baffled that you could apply the term "socialist" here....

Yeah, that was kind of my point. I see you missed it.



Some FF'ers are anti socialism, some aren't! That's the whole point. THEY HAVE NO IDEOLOGY!

Maebh wrote:

The only reason we have SW, CB etc is they were very politically in vogue when these things were brought in...following what the UK does and all...

What exactly are you saying there?

masteroftherealm

K-9 wrote: »

YEP, but the left wing tax rates should have been kept years ago.

Personally we should have Northern Ireland rates of tax and PRSI and probably higher. Problem is, we are trying to introduce those levels in a recession, when the horse has bolted.



Yeah, that was kind of my point. I see you missed it.



Yeah, that was kind of my point. I see you missed it.



Some FF'ers are anti socialism, some aren't! That's the whole point. THEY HAVE NO IDEOLOGY!



What exactly are you saying there?

I assume she was trying to say that we have whaterver the political philosophy in the UK is depending on who is in power over there FF sway leftish(Very very centerist IMO) or veer right wing.

K-9

masteroftherealm wrote: »

I assume she was trying to say that we have whaterver the political philosophy in the UK is depending on who is in power over there FF sway leftish(Very very centerist IMO) or veer right wing.

We only have SW and CB because of Britain?

markesmith

The government and media here are no more left-wing than my father is. We've got a fairly right-of-centre, populist government. And the only print media outlet that approaches left-of-centre, is the Irish Times, the newspaper of record. The Indo, Mail, Star, Sun etc are all fairly right-wing or just apolitical X-Factor newsletters.

So I don't know where Seamus above is coming from. How you can make the two points he made above is beyond me. Either he doesn't understand right/left or he's reading the newspapers upside down.

Still, interesting discussion this.

professore

If he's a genius, here's what BIFFO will do next:

1. 10% cut in salaries across the public sector except the army
2. Change rules (if there are any) about not being able to fire PS workers
3. 10% targeted redundancies across PS selected by an external consultant - not KPMG or similar losers - perhaps Michael O'Leary, 10% increase in the army - or maybe draft in FCA.
4. Sit back and wait for inevitable strikes.
5. Stop paying PS during strikes. Give them 4 weeks and then start hiring unemployed to replace them where possible.
6. Draft in army for law and order. If strikes are crippling essential services (e.g. gardai, ESB, hospitals) send in the army to sort them out.
7. Wait it out until PS people get fed up with no money and go back to work.

The above might sound radical but this is what we need - otherwise Brussels or the IMF will do it for us.

QED. We return to something of a balanced budget and get on with fixing the country as a more lean mean fighting machine. Prices will fall further to reflect the new reality meaning everyone will be better off than they are now. A short sharp shock rather than a long blunt one.

ei.sdraob

professore wrote: »

If he's a genius, here's what BIFFO will do next:

1. 10% cut in salaries across the public sector except the army
2. Change rules (if there are any) about not being able to fire PS workers
3. 10% targeted redundancies across PS selected by an external consultant - not KPMG or similar losers - perhaps Michael O'Leary, 10% increase in the army - or maybe draft in FCA.
4. Sit back and wait for inevitable strikes.
5. Stop paying PS during strikes. Give them 4 weeks and then start hiring unemployed to replace them where possible.
6. Draft in army for law and order. If strikes are crippling essential services (e.g. gardai, ESB, hospitals) send in the army to sort them out.
7. Wait it out until PS people get fed up with no money and go back to work.

The above might sound radical but this is what we need - otherwise Brussels or the IMF will do it for us.

QED. We return to something of a balanced budget and get on with fixing the country as a more lean mean fighting machine. Prices will fall further to reflect the new reality meaning everyone will be better off than they are now. A short sharp shock rather than a long blunt one.

you just described typical mode of operation for an off the shelf banana republic

Riskymove

professore wrote: »

The above might sound radical

might?

but this is what we need - otherwise Brussels or the IMF will do it for us.

yes thats what the IMF do enlarge the nations army and send it into action against striking PS workers....:pac:

masteroftherealm

professore wrote: »

If he's a genius, here's what BIFFO will do next:

1. 10% cut in salaries across the public sector except the army
2. Change rules (if there are any) about not being able to fire PS workers
3. 10% targeted redundancies across PS selected by an external consultant - not KPMG or similar losers - perhaps Michael O'Leary, 10% increase in the army - or maybe draft in FCA.
4. Sit back and wait for inevitable strikes.
5. Stop paying PS during strikes. Give them 4 weeks and then start hiring unemployed to replace them where possible.
6. Draft in army for law and order. If strikes are crippling essential services (e.g. gardai, ESB, hospitals) send in the army to sort them out.
7. Wait it out until PS people get fed up with no money and go back to work.

The above might sound radical but this is what we need - otherwise Brussels or the IMF will do it for us.

QED. We return to something of a balanced budget and get on with fixing the country as a more lean mean fighting machine. Prices will fall further to reflect the new reality meaning everyone will be better off than they are now. A short sharp shock rather than a long blunt one.

Wow, and watch every multinational company leave the country when you declare martial law...............

P. Breathnach

markesmith wrote: »

... And the only print media outlet that approaches left-of-centre, is the Irish Times, the newspaper of record...

It has been edging to the right for some time.

ei.sdraob

i have to say the policies of the government are fairly left wing

think about it, never in communist/socialist USSR or Cuba or China
do people get paid money for doing nothing

welfare was and is an alien concept, now healthcare and education on other hand are heavily subsidies'd and in case of Cuba quite good

irish_bob

Maebh wrote: »

And by disproportionate, you mean any air time at all?

no but thier are more people with micheal o learys politics in ireland than ciaran allens or richard boyd barretts or father sean healeys and you dont hear them on radio or tv too often , how often do you hear unapologetically right wing capitalists on radio or tv , apart from constance guriev , i cant think of a single one

masteroftherealm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i have to say the policies of the government are fairly left wing

think about it, never in communist/socialist USSR or Cuba or China
do people get paid money for doing nothing

welfare was and is an alien concept, now healthcare and education on other hand are heavily subsidies'd and in case of Cuba quite good

socialism does not equal capitalism. Please read the definitions. Different things.

And yes we have an atrocious education and healthcare system in this country. Two of the cornerstones of a left wing country,

ei.sdraob

masteroftherealm wrote: »

socialism does not equal capitalism. Please read the definitions. Different things.

And yes we have an atrocious education and healthcare system in this country. Two of the cornerstones of a left wing country,

yes they are different things

but as was mentioned before we have a very funny quasi socialist/capitalist state controlled system with some weird results (See public/private divide)

the best way to describe the government is as populist, they were everything to everyone in order to get reelected, but once elected they only looked after their own, while throwing and odd bone in the publics direction

masteroftherealm

Ah sorry typo on my part I meant to say communism (Freudian Slip :P)
But yes we have the quasi something system here.

danman

What I find strange, is that on this board last week, people were saying that Cowen didn't have the balls to stand up to the Unions. Even this week, it's been said that he backed down.

Does no one remember the budget last year. They talked to the Unions, but got no progress as usual. What happened? The pension levy came in as a way of saving on public sector pay.

That doesn't look like a man that has no balls. I'm no great fan of the man, but give credit where it's due. I think he lead the Unions on a merry dance. He has the form.

fartmaster

What a moronic thread this is. The fact that people are praising Fianna Fail is very humorous, aint they the ones who caused this mess of a economy?

Ausdubliner

ntlbell wrote: »

the public will suffer?

public _service_ will now have to take some pain like everyone else.

I find it amazing that the public sector are told to feel the pain like everyone else when the private sector was one of the main catalysts for the problems.

Without joining the stereotypical debate of public vs private, I think its important that we identify what is important to our society. Judging by the comments made over the past few weeks we don't value healthcare, education etc etc....

thebman

Ausdubliner wrote: »

I find it amazing that the public sector are told to feel the pain like everyone else when the private sector was one of the main catalysts for the problems.

Without joining the stereotypical debate of public vs private, I think its important that we identify what is important to our society. Judging by the comments made over the past few weeks we don't value healthcare, education etc etc....

The cost of the public sector is part of the barrier to recovery.

The private sector is not an entity. Did Bothar cause the crisis? Sorry but only one part of the private sector caused the crisis and the rest of the private sector disagrees with bailing them out even if they believe it is necessary they don't think they deserve to be bailed out, just that it has to happen to stabilise the economy.

douglashyde

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you just described typical mode of operation for an off the shelf banana republic

Also the ESB wages are not determined by Public Sector, they literally pay wages out of companies pocket... deep pocket I might add.

Get your facts right bucko.

thebman

douglashyde wrote: »

Also the ESB wages are not determined by Public Sector, they literally pay wages out of companies pocket... deep pocket I might add.

Get your facts right bucko.

Em its a semi-state monopoly with artificially high prices to encourage competition in an attempt to encourage competition because that is the only way our government can think to create competition.

omahaid

Personally, I glad to see the two Brians had the guts to do what was needed. We all felt pain but now the public sector is starting (emphasis on starting) to be competitive then hopefully the country can start to recover. I wasn't a fan of FF and the Brians but I have a higher opinion now that I can see they have some guts at least.