VAT being charged for goods at border of NI

consultech

dudara wrote: »

The government cannot charge V.A.T. on goods across the border from the North, IF V.A.T. has already been paid on those goods in N.I.

A fundamental part of the E.U. is the concept of no double taxation.

Cheers - I'm aware of that, my last post contained a mis-type. I meant customs checks on their own.

snaps

Im sure the difference in VAT rates north and south dont make much difference to the selling price of goods, its like been said, its the extra 40% mark up thats added by southern retailers.

I for one have taken a massive pay cut this last 12 months, im lucky if im working 4 days a week at the moment, Any money i can save i will take, thus the northern shopping trips every 2 months or so.

I actually think the amount of shoppers heading north is way more than being published. I live in Mayo (2hrs from Enniskillen) and everyone i work with has made at least 1 trip this year, Same with people i may drink with in the pub, theyve all made trips.

People are gobsmacked when they arrive at tesco/Asda and they see the difference in price of goods compared to here.

I brought lots of kiddies toys last month in tesco Enniskillen, The same toys in Tesco here were double the price.

Also if people are slagging off cross border shoppers, If they have Sky tv, then all the subs are heading over to the UK including VAT which all stays in the UK exchequers hands. The only thing we get back from sky is jobs via installers and a customer center in Cork. I wonder how much the UK government makes out of VAT payments from Sky subscribers. Im sure that skys sales in Ireland is a lot more than 100k a year?

mcaul

As usual there's a lot of mis-information on a thread.

1. Cross border shopping affects the state coffers by about €100m a year - not a gigantic amount.

2. Cross border shopping affects retail jobs within 40 miles of the border

3. Most compaints about "Irish" retailers overcharging are actually complaints about UK retailers who over charge in their Irish stores. Rarely are there comparisons made about shaws, arnotts, smyths, BT, Dunnes, Pennys, woodies etc. - Lets simply avoid the UK retailers and support REAL IRISH retailers.

4. The average exchange rate over the past 2 weeks you will get for Euro / sterling paying by credit card / cash is 1.17. Yesterday someone in Ulster Bank was buying £350 sterling and she was quoted €403 - a rate of 1.15! - Not 1.10 as many wrongly believe.

5. When you go north, you will believe the hype and purchase far more than you would have otherwise purchased down south.

6. Don't make the error of comparing prices in sainsburys with Spar - check what local shops are charing in their specials. E.G. Don't think you saved €13 on a bottle of jameson @ £12 (€13.80) when Tesco are selling it on special at €17 whereas a local off licence may be €27.

7. Remember if you are going north - fill up your tank BEFORE crossing the border or you will pay approx. 10% extra for Petrol & up to 25% extra for diesel!

consultech

mcaul wrote: »

As usual there's a lot of mis-information on a thread.

1. Cross border shopping affects the state coffers by about €100m a year - not a gigantic amount.

Source?

2. Cross border shopping affects retail jobs within 40 miles of the border

Logic behind this point?

3. Most compaints about "Irish" retailers overcharging are actually complaints about UK retailers who over charge in their Irish stores. Rarely are there comparisons made about shaws, arnotts, smyths, BT, Dunnes, Pennys, woodies etc. - Lets simply avoid the UK retailers and support REAL IRISH retailers.

Agreed.

5. When you go north, you will believe the hype and purchase far more than you would have otherwise purchased down south.

Agreed - This is the lavish unnecessary spending I'm alluding to.

snaps

mcaul wrote: »

4. The average exchange rate over the past 2 weeks you will get for Euro / sterling paying by credit card / cash is 1.17. Yesterday someone in Ulster Bank was buying £350 sterling and she was quoted €403 - a rate of 1.15! - Not 1.10 as many wrongly believe.

Just take euro up there and dont change your money here into sterling. DO NOT use credit card unless you really need to. Most supermarkets will give a superb exchnage rate when using euro.

ShooterSF

Can I assume those against cross border shopping are anti-EU? As freedom of movement of goods is one of the cornerstones of the E.U...

rubadub

Supraman wrote: »

I'm living in Cork so I have not justified a trip to the north for shopping. However if I lived within an hour to 90 mins of the border I'd be up there on a very regular basis. People are struggling to make ends meet, can barely afford to buy nappies for their children or put food in their mouths.

Yes, it is hard luck for people the further south they go. The missing money has to come from somewhere, like the income levy. So instead of similar people all paying roughly the same tax each year one must pay more, in effect sort of subsidising the other persons tax avoidance.

Paulw wrote: »

It's a free economy. For many years we were advised to shop around, but now that we do, we're being labelled as being unpatriotic.

The politicians who advised to shop around obviously did not mean shop in other countries. It was advice to be aware that there are large differences in prices between shops (in this country). Anyone who thinks those politicians meant "go up north" is as stupid as those utter fools who thought tescos "change for good" slogan meant they would never increase prices ever again.

mcaul wrote: »

1. Cross border shopping affects the state coffers by about €100m a year - not a gigantic amount.

Dunno how they can get these figures, is this only in regards do Northern Ireland? I would have thought it would be more these days. I expect this figure does this include the likes of online sales from the UK other countries.

mcaul wrote: »

2. Cross border shopping affects retail jobs within 40 miles of the border

This certainly ignores online sales and delivery services. There have been several delivery services in bargain alerts before, you could order from ASDA and get stuff delivered to a third party courier who brings it down for you (though some did just go to dublin).

mcaul wrote: »

3. Most compaints about "Irish" retailers overcharging are actually complaints about UK retailers who over charge in their Irish stores. Rarely are there comparisons made about shaws, arnotts, smyths, BT, Dunnes, Pennys, woodies etc. - Lets simply avoid the UK retailers and support REAL IRISH retailers.

You rarely see comparisons because they do not have dual pricing, or sites to be checked online. In fact in the case of Dunnes you DO see complaints, since they do have dual pricing. I have pointed out in numerous threads that the non-Irish retailers here would be crazy not to charge at what the market will bear -and that current market price is pretty much in line with other stores, the nationality of the store owner does not make a lot of difference to the items price IME. The lack of fair comparison just shows the blatant anti-british sentiments of a lot of these posters.

mcaul wrote: »

6. Don't make the error of comparing prices in sainsburys with Spar - check what local shops are charing in their specials. E.G. Don't think you saved €13 on a bottle of jameson @ £12 (€13.80) when Tesco are selling it on special at €17 whereas a local off licence may be €27.

Very true, the most common "game" I see is people seeking out the most expensive shop here to exaggerate their savings. "I got cheap batteries in ASDA, in Weirs jewellers in dublin they costed 10 times as much". And do not even compare the same exact same product if not applicable -e.g. a lad in work buys whatever beer is on offer, there is ALWAYS €1 bottles on offer. He goes up north and gets staropramen, maybe 60cent per bottle, he never heard of nor tasted the stuff before, buys it solely since it is cheap. Then goes into an offie and it is €2.60 here so reckons he saved €2 per bottle! completely ignoring the fact he would never have dreamt of paying over €1 per bottle here.

consultech

rubadub wrote: »

The politicians who advised to shop around obviously did not mean shop in other countries. It was advice be aware that there are large differences in prices between shops (in this country). Anyone who thinks those politicians meant "go up north" is as stupid as those utter fools who thought tescos "change for good" slogan meant they would never increase prices ever again.

+1

I'm sick of hearing people cling to that stupid quote, like it justifies everything they're doing. You can make anything mean anything if quoted out of context.

Pacing Mule

Rev. Kitchen wrote: »

But people mainly skip over the border because of something in the industry called the "thick paddy tax" where shops add sometimes 40% onto the cost of goods sold in Ireland.

It amazes me when shops add massive margins to good to rip us off then blame us for not buying it !!

Paulw wrote: »

Why are people doing it?

Look at prices in the ROI. You can generally buy the exact same item for much cheaper in NI.

Why?

Not only is it to do with the VAT rate down here being higher, but it's also to do with the profit margin that Irish stores add. These tend to be higher than the same in NI.

It's a free economy. For many years we were advised to shop around, but now that we do, we're being labelled as being unpatriotic.

Don't blame the shopper, blame the shops.

In the vast majority if cases there is a higher margin added on because the cost of doing business here is higher. A higher margin on goods does not neccessarily translate into a higher profit margin and this is easily confused.



There are a lot of factors here but to name a few ...

• Wage rates in Ireland are a lot higher than the UK.
• Property prices here although they have come down recently are enormous versus the UK. Bear in mind that the majority of retailers here are locked into leases / mortgages at the much higher rates.
• Rent and wages are the biggest expenses any business occurs so not only does the retailer here operate with these higher costs every service provided by other local businesses and suppliers is also effected by the same. This means that most other expenses incurred are also significantly higher.

All these factors make the cost of doing business here in Ireland higher than our immediate neighbours. The fact is that the wages and property prices which went up and up and up each year during the boom was adding to the base cost of doing business here which has to be reflected in the sale price of the goods and services. The simple reality is that most shops here would be operating at a loss if they price matched the north yet by not doing so are accused of ripping people off.

I'm not saying that every retailler is in the same boat and there are no doubt retaillers charging to the market as such but it's a lot smaller a percentage than people think. Do you really think the vast majority of business owners here are stupid enough to try and make 40% extra profit on their rapidly shrinking sales in favour of lowering prices, and make less profit on a lot more sales leading to more profit in the long run ?

mcaul

Re Queries

CSO figures gave purchases of goods by Southern residents in Northern Irealnd at about €460m. (June2008 - June 2009 published last week) Assuming part of this was non vatable food, part was alcohol etc etc, a fair guestimate of vat / duty lost to state is 20% of sales value

Suppose we could add in the extra revenue they get from the duty & vat on the petrol & diesel used going up?:D - And then we cpould subtract the vat & duty they receive from the thousands of NI motorists who slip ove the border to fill up with diesel?

The general concensus by Retail Excellence Ireland is that towns with 50km of the border are adversly hit whislt those further way don't suffer as much as time value starts playing a part for many people.

Internet sales will always be around - I sell about 30% of my casino products into the UK & I'm sure UK guys are selling into Ireland. But its a level playing pitch as there's very little difference in Warehouse rents between UK & Ireland and larger retailers pay Irish Vat and items sent from outside EU pay Irish vat too.

Also, whilst people say Internet is huge, its still only about 7% - 8% of retail spend - about the same as catalougue shopping was at its height.


I've nothing against shopping in NI, but the rose tinted glasses many wear blind them to the fact that there's value down south in many retailers and that the real savings are quite small overall - and not really worth the hassle unless you merge it with a day out / other reason to travel. - From a weekend away point of view its a fabulous place particularly around the glens of Antrim - I would say this as the aul fella is from there and we still go up every couple of months! - But I stopped shopping on the trips as the hassle of it was not worth the paltry savings.

Propellerhead

consultech wrote: »

Let's hope so anyway. Our economy is on it's fuckin knees, partly in thanks to the sheer irresponsible greed being shown by the border-hoppers, all for the sake of a few hundred quid a year.

Our economy is on it's fuckin knees, partly in thanks to the sheer irresponsible greed being shown by the Government and shop-keepers in the Republic, all for the sake of a few hundred quid a year.[/QUOTE]

Fixed that for ya!

Propellerhead

snaps wrote: »

Im sure the difference in VAT rates north and south dont make much difference to the selling price of goods, its like been said, its the extra 40% mark up thats added by southern retailers.

I for one have taken a massive pay cut this last 12 months, im lucky if im working 4 days a week at the moment, Any money i can save i will take, thus the northern shopping trips every 2 months or so.

I actually think the amount of shoppers heading north is way more than being published. I live in Mayo (2hrs from Enniskillen) and everyone i work with has made at least 1 trip this year, Same with people i may drink with in the pub, theyve all made trips.

People are gobsmacked when they arrive at tesco/Asda and they see the difference in price of goods compared to here.

I brought lots of kiddies toys last month in tesco Enniskillen, The same toys in Tesco here were double the price.

Also if people are slagging off cross border shoppers, If they have Sky tv, then all the subs are heading over to the UK including VAT which all stays in the UK exchequers hands. The only thing we get back from sky is jobs via installers and a customer center in Cork. I wonder how much the UK government makes out of VAT payments from Sky subscribers. Im sure that skys sales in Ireland is a lot more than 100k a year?

You don't need a sub (other than the television licence) to watch the four Irish channels off air, or the whole suite of BBC/ITV/C4 channels plus Five free to air. Bin your Sky sub and watch matches down the pub. Screw paying anyone anything unnecessarily.

Propellerhead

ShooterSF wrote: »

Can I assume those against cross border shopping are anti-EU? As freedom of movement of goods is one of the cornerstones of the E.U...

No, they want a population that has already been screwed by its employers and the government to take one for the team yet again. No thanks.

Propellerhead

snaps wrote: »

Just take euro up there and dont change your money here into sterling. DO NOT use credit card unless you really need to. Most supermarkets will give a superb exchnage rate when using euro.

Use your Debit Card where possible or take cash out from your current account through an ATM, unless the retailer is giving extra discount for using euro cash.

mcaul

Propellerhead wrote: »

Our economy is on it's fuckin knees, partly in thanks to the sheer irresponsible greed being shown by the Government and shop-keepers in the Republic, all for the sake of a few hundred quid a year.

How about the landlords who increased rent from €145,000 to €381,000, or the councils who increased commercial rates & water charges by an average of 60% over the past 5 years?

I wonder why the retail sector was the second highest numebr of business failures last year? - Surely if they were making a fortune they would not be closing down left right & centre????

Bankers (worldwide) who provided way over the odds for the purchase of land & buildings throughout the world are 90% to blame for the crisis economies are in.

foggy_lad

seamus wrote: »

Far less than what a lot of people are buying:
Goods|Maximum quantity allowed
Cigarettes|800
Cigarillos|400
Cigars|200
Smoking tobacco|1 kg
Spirits (whiskey, vodka, gin, etc.)|10 litres
Intermediate Products (e.g. sherry, port, etc., excluding sparkling wine)|20 litres
Wine (only 60 litres of sparkling wine allowed)|90 litres
Beer|110 litres

Since most people people seem to do a "run" up North every 6 or 8 weeks, then most people probably won't fall foul of the cigarette or cigar numbers, but I can see a big problem with spirits and Beer - people buy large quantities in order to justify the trip.

The limit is roughly 13 bottles of vodka and 9 crates of beer. Sounds like a lot, but many people do big runs like this for friends and family, in a van.

Revenue/Customs have the power to stop, question and search you if they believe that you are carrying more than the permissible amounts.

As EKRIUQ points out though, if you can satisfy customs that these are for your personal use and not for resale or supply, no duty is payable.

they tried to limit quantities like this in the uk but were shot down by the eu and their own courts as long as cigs and booze are for personal use they can not limit the amounts!

tallaghtfornia

We go to Newry from time to time. A lot of what we buy up there would be alcohol - Guinness, Carlsberg, etc. All of which is actually produced in Ireland, and shipped north. It's still stupidly cheaper to buy in in NI than in Dublin (for a product produced in Ireland).

Your wrong there they are produced(Not brewed) in Northern Ireland by DIAGEO NI (IBC) The only beer (Cider)bottling plant (Bottling and Canning plant bar some very small producers) left in the republic is Bulmers in Clonmel.

Some examples.

Coors Light is canned or bottled in Holand by Heineken (version sold for the Irish market)

Beamish (Widget can) is canned in the UK by Diageo UK in Runcorn.

So the only canned/bottled beer that you buy in the ROI is either produced in the UK/NI or Foreign.

I have said it before almost 70% of the food and Drinks that we consume in the Republic are produced abroad, if we took back our food and drink industries in this country there would be plenty of work for everyone.

Paulw

No matter if you buy it in NI or Ireland, it's still brewed in Ireland (Carlsberg in Dundalk and Guinness in Dublin). Those are the brands I drink, and buy. My girlfriend's brother-in-law works for Diageo Dundalk, so I know well how/where it's produced.

tallaghtoutlaws

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

Your wrong there they are produced(Not brewed) in Northern Ireland by DIAGEO NI (IBC) The only beer (Cider)bottling plant (Bottling and Canning plant bar some very small producers) left in the republic is Bulmers in Clonmel.

Some examples.

Coors Light is canned or bottled in Holand by Heineken (version sold for the Irish market)

Beamish (Widget can) is canned in the UK by Diageo UK in Runcorn.

So the only canned/bottled beer that you buy in the ROI is either produced in the UK/NI or Foreign.

I have said it before almost 70% of the food and Drinks that we consume in the Republic are produced abroad, if we took back our food and drink industries in this country there would be plenty of work for everyone.

Guinness is still brewed in St James Gate.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

they tried to limit quantities like this in the uk but were shot down by the eu and their own courts as long as cigs and booze are for personal use they can not limit the amounts!

They're still doing it in certain cases where they believe the quantities are excessive and they take the attitude of "impound now, sort-out later".
This is a year old but indicative:

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/news/MEPs-block-loosening-booze-cruise-rules/article-487890-detail/article.html

tallaghtfornia

Guinness is still brewed in St James Gate

Brewed not canned , Guinness is shipped from Dublin to NI/UK to be canned since the Dundalk Packaging closed

Paulw

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

Brewed not canned , Guinness is shipped from Dublin to NI/UK to be canned since the Dundalk Packaging closed

But that hasn't changed in a long time, so buying the products in NI will not effect jobs here (relating to those products).

Twin-go

Me thinks the government in their wisdom, will place Customs check points at the boarder not necessarily to get revenue from shoppers exceeding limits but, just to make it more akward for those that choose to shop north.

Imagine the lenght of the queues if the customs started checking every car/van coming back south.

Paulw

Twin-go wrote: »

Me thinks the government in their wisdom, will place Customs check points at the boarder not necessarily to get revenue from shoppers exceeding limits but, just to make it more akward for those that choose to shop north.

Imagine the lenght of the queues if the customs started checking every car/van coming back south.

I doubt it would be much worse than the current traffic jams to Newry.

Aside from which, it would be a waste of money, since it would cost the govt to have the Revenue there to check the cars, and they would make very very little in return from it.

I can't see it happening.

consultech

Twin-go wrote: »

Me thinks the government in their wisdom, will place Customs check points at the boarder not necessarily to get revenue from shoppers exceeding limits but, just to make it more akward for those that choose to shop north.

Imagine the lenght of the queues if the customs started checking every car/van coming back south.

Would be quite clever tbh, and well within their right. The roadworks b4 Newry are bad enough on their own. (90 mins for the last kilometre last Weds at 1pm on my way to collect something in Lisburn)

consultech

Paulw wrote: »

I doubt it would be much worse than the current traffic jams to Newry.

Aside from which, it would be a waste of money, since it would cost the govt to have the Revenue there to check the cars, and they would make very very little in return from it.

I can't see it happening.

It's not the return they'd make; it's the flow of money out that they'd limit.

Phester

heineken is kegged in cork and I think they do bottles in cork. Beamish was bottled in cork. ( watched plenty of miller and fosters bottles flowing out their door.)

Paulw

consultech wrote: »

It's not the return they'd make; it's the flow of money out that they'd limit.

I doubt they'd limit it that much. If people want to make the savings, they will. It's always been the way, especially around the border areas. People would quickly take alternate routes, and the Revenue can't sit on the M1 all day, every day. They'd also have to man all the other roads in to NI.

I can't see it happening, but it wouldn't bother me if it did happen.

rubadub

Phester wrote: »

heineken is kegged in cork and I think they do bottles in cork.

Heineken in kegs is brewed in Ireland, the bottles & cans are brewed in holland not sure if they are canned/bottled here.

Paulw wrote: »

I doubt they'd limit it that much. If people want to make the savings, they will.

But if it is limited to a certain degree than many people will not make savings. For those who actually bother to calculate the "savings" properly this will make a difference. As I have said in numerous threads most people do not seem to value their time & free time at all, I find this really odd. It obviously depends on what you save by going, and the REAL comparison, i.e. not buying 30 watch batteries in a pound shops for £1, then hearing they are €10 in Weirs jewellers and saying you saved almost €300.

Some people could work overtime on a saturday for time & a half and make far more money and be less stressed than going up north. Some poster talked of being stuck 45mins in a carpark, while others will talk of "ah sure its only minutes up the road" -don't fool yourself, work it out properly.

consultech

Paulw wrote: »

I doubt they'd limit it that much. If people want to make the savings, they will. It's always been the way, especially around the border areas. People would quickly take alternate routes, and the Revenue can't sit on the M1 all day, every day. They'd also have to man all the other roads in to NI.

I can't see it happening, but it wouldn't bother me if it did happen.

It could only be effectively done around Newry, due to it's border location. They can't exactly park the gardaí up around Lisburn and Belfast etc. That's most likely the reason it hasn't happened yet. The northern Irish government is hardly gonna volunteer the PSNI to limit money coming in to the economy.