Talks Between Gov. and unions break down

kev9100

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1204/partnership.html

This was a great oppurtunity for ff and they blew it.

gally74

no they got it spot on,

all the unions could offer was a nuts plan that would have shut the country 12 days!!!

well done ff

PomBear

gally74 wrote: »

no they got it spot on,

all the unions could offer was a nuts plan that would have shut the country 12 days!!!

well done ff

everyone wasn't gonna take the 12 days all at once :rolleyes:

gally74

the country borrowed 22 billion this year,

would you just keep borrowing?

get real, this 4 million next week has to be followed up with another 18 billion over the next 4 years!

all this talk of 1.3 billion, were off by 22 billion

Darragh29

kev9100 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1204/partnership.html

This was a great oppurtunity for ff and they blew it.

I'd like to know why it is only now when the threat of a pay cut has been wheeled out, that all of a sudden, the PS unions start talking the same language as the rest of us when it comes to change and delivering value for money in the workplace...

David Begg has just admitted on Newstalk 10 minutes ago that now PS unions will return to being hostile to change and reform yet again within the workplace...

What we need now is legislaton that outlaws obstruction of change and improvements within the public sector workplace. Constitutionally you can join a union, but this noton of blocking change and carrying on like a gimp every time you want a payrise, we need to deal with this for once and for all.

Change is not a "once in a lifetime opportunity", it is something that happens in most workplaces every hour of every day, the government need to get with the script here and start putting the line down again between employer and employee..

FlutterinBantam

Bring it on David and Liam and Peter and Brendan......

See what public support you have( I'l tell you in case you don't already know....fook all!)

Jaysus I'm now listening to Gilmore who was cut in two by Eamon Keane on Newstalk waffling about that this was a lost opportunity.

For Christ's sake this crap has been going on for the last 15 years and nothing has changed.I just can't believe this guy.

Keep that idiot out of Govt. for sure.

I'd vote FF to keep that stupid attitude out.:mad:

SeanW

kev9100 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1204/partnership.html

This was a great oppurtunity for ff and they blew it.

How? From everything I know about the Public Sector, its fat and bloated, full of overpaid, underworked, spoiled, strike-happy tools.

The unions plan didn't deal with any of the multitude of structural deficiencies in the public sector. Enough with this partnership bollix. The PS needs to be taken on, perferably with a chainsaw.

Their plan was just "hey we'll take 12 days off to drive to Newry and fill our cars with crates of booze" ...

FlutterinBantam

Gilmore's just pulled the ripcord... he's fcuked.:mad:

positivenote

SeanW wrote: »

How? From everything I know about the Public Sector, its fat and bloated, full of overpaid, underworked, spoiled, strike-happy tools.

Their plan was just "hey we'll take 12 days off to drive to Newry and fill our cars with crates of booze" ...

well you dont know much about teachers, nurses, firemen and other people who educate, care for and protect the general public

Darragh29

SeanW wrote: »

How? From everything I know about the Public Sector, its fat and bloated, full of overpaid, underworked, spoiled, strike-happy tools.

The unions plan didn't deal with any of the multitude of structural deficiencies in the public sector. Enough with this partnership bollix. The PS needs to be taken on, perferably with a chainsaw.

Their plan was just "hey we'll take 12 days off to drive to Newry and fill our cars with crates of booze" ...

These guys are DELUDED... Their statement that, "a once in a lifetime opportunity to completely reform the public sector", means nothing other than that the public sector is a complete inefficient mess as it is currently constituted.

Their refusal to offer cooperation for the necessary reform, which most of them have spent their entire careers opposing, goes to the very core of the selfishness and greed that has us now borrowing half a billion a fortnight just to turn the lights on... It's sickening to any private sector worker, to see this gimp like behaviour in motion, it's revolting to see the country in such a state and people still batting for their own particular agenda...

kev9100

Darragh29 wrote: »

What we need now is legislaton that outlaws obstruction of change and improvements within the public sector workplace. Constitutionally you can join a union, but this noton of blocking change and carrying on like a gimp every time you want a payrise, we need to deal with this for once and for all.

I`m sorry, but i don`t understand your point at all. Are you suggesting that a legislature has a right to dictate to a union what it can or cannot do? You may not like the unions, but they have a right to act in whatever way they believe is best for their members.

Darragh29

positivenote wrote: »

well you dont know much about teachers, nurses, firemen and other people who educate, care for and protect the general public

Teachers and the others you refer to above:

Superior salaries than private sector workers

GUARANTEED salary increments based on nothing other than time served

Never have to have a performance review in their entire career

Guaranteed job for life

Guaranteed pension, totally insulated from market forces

In the case of teachers, outrageous holiday entitlements

Untouchable if sick days are taken

Darragh29

kev9100 wrote: »

I`m sorry, but i don`t understand your point at all. Are you suggesting that a legislature has a right to dictate to a union what it can or cannot do? You may not like the unions, but they have a right to act in whatever way they believe is best for their members.

We need legislation now stop unions obstructing the change that is necessary for the provision of proper public services. I have a license to drive a car, I can drive my car anywhere I wish, but it is not open to me to park my car sideways on the middle of the M50 and obstruct other people, because the law balances my right to drive a car, with the right of other road users to be able to progress without me obstructing them.

I'm all for union membership, but we cannot allow this situation to prevail, change in any workplace is something that needs to be taken seriously, an employer cannot run any organisation when change is obstructed for any reason.

fricatus

Darragh29 wrote: »

Change is not a "once in a lifetime opportunity", it is something that happens in most workplaces every hour of every day, the government need to get with the script here and start putting the line down again between employer and employee..

QFT...

And if you work in the private sector, the reason you need to change and adapt constantly is because if you don't, the competition will, and very soon you'll be out of a job.

These days the public sector have to realise that this country has to compete against India and China, etc., and deliver efficient public services that support the high-value jobs we need here. They can't do that by keeping all the old attitudes and practices.

billy the squid

A lot of teachers don't have a job for life though, many are on temporary contracts while their lazy counterparts go on career breaks.

Darragh29

fricatus wrote: »

QFT...

And if you work in the private sector, the reason you need to change and adapt constantly is because if you don't, the competition will, and very soon you'll be out of a job.

These days the public sector have to realise that this country has to compete against India and China, etc., and deliver efficient public services that support the high-value jobs we need here. They can't do that by keeping all the old attitudes and practices.

These guys just don't "get" how the world turns these days... If you have people who are open to change and innovation within your workplace, these are your best assets. To have any organisation witholding this asset to the detriment of the state who is paying, and the citzizens who use the service, is criminal in these times.

What we should do, is every person in the private sector should join a new union specifically for those in the private sector and restore some long overdue balance to this spectacle that is called the "partnership process"....

FlutterinBantam

We need common sense from the taxpayer to see through the agendas of these people.

Look at it this way... about 8- 10 pople telling the ELECTED GOVT what to do.

David Begg

Jack O' Connor

Peter Mcloone

Brendan Ogle

Liam Doran

Harbour

+ a few others.

hardly the most reasonable lights in the firmament, and a bunch of whom, I for one, would gladly consign to the fcuking scraheap of the vested interests outdated section of the nearest available landfill.

Bunch of imposters.

SeanW

positivenote wrote: »

well you dont know much about teachers, nurses, firemen and other people who educate, care for and protect the general public

Granted, I should have qualified my post to differentiate the front line (where there's a lot less of the above malaise) and the back offices of managers and administrators (where the above maladies are a pandemic).

Just a few examples:
Dog tax costs twice as much to administer as it collects:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055752037

Driving test madness:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58570832&postcount=40
Many of you recall the reality that the driving test "system" used to be barely functional, with waits up to 1 year 2 months, a malady partly caused by the greed and intransigence of driver tester unions.

Health sector lunacy
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53013555
Most of the increased budget for health services was spent on administration.

And this is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Asking the unions for help sorting this out is like asking the burglar to give you back your stuff.

Taking on these bloated, spoilt, overpaid and underworked tools and ramming through structural reform with a 5-iron is the only way to get public services that work, while avoiding massive debts and property taxes, 60% income taxes and God knows what else that would be necessary to keep these people in their little bubble.

NinjaTruncs

positivenote wrote: »

well you dont know much about teachers, nurses, firemen and other people who educate, care for and protect the general public

Hasn't that excuse been done to death? They all knew what the job was when they took it on, it's like a binman giving out that he has to collect rubbish all day.

Shea O'Meara

Fianna Fail screwed up royally. They created this. Of course all areas need to be looked at for cuts etc. Of course unions will be up in arms. We've seen it all before.
Public Service pay is one amoungst the multitude of areas we should be looking at. The only difference is Fianna Fail can deflect from themselves in providing the public with scape goats, such as public service workers. They are trying to evoke a sense of empathy from the public, ("We're trying to fix everything but the public service won't think of the children!") who should be calling for their blood and they know it.


Begg "The people who condemned this union initiative out of hand concentrated solely on the bridging mechanism for 2010, which was only a secondary part of the overall plan. They failed to appreciate, or perhaps did not want to hear the detailed blueprints for medium-term reform and cost savings set out in documents agreed for each sector of the public service, which were the primary focus of the union proposal."
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/16913365/

My stance on this is; yes cuts need to be made. Unions have a right to strike when Fianna Fail wants to make changes without proper debate. Fianna Fail are loving the whole Public/Private debacle....divide and win over.

Shea O'Meara

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Hasn't that excuse been done to death? They all knew what the job was when they took it on....

Yes, that's why their Unions are up in arms over Fianna Fail changes to those contracts.

Misty Chaos

I was very disappointed when I heard talks had broken down.

If the unions want to the ship to sink, then LET IT, I say. It will be the ONLY way they'll get it. Then we'll see what will happen when the country goes completely bankrupt, how will the unions feel then?

If that happens, I'm soldering the blame on the unions and the monkeys that run it as well, not just FF.

loobylou

Darragh29 wrote: »

goes to the very core of the selfishness and greed that has us now borrowing half a billion a fortnight just to turn the lights on...

Closer to half a billion a week actually.

irish_bob

gally74 wrote: »

no they got it spot on,

all the unions could offer was a nuts plan that would have shut the country 12 days!!!

well done ff

good news for the country as a whole , david begg was on rte saying how much he deeply regretted this outcome , when begg and co are bitterley disapointed , the rest of us should be happy , time to bury the ghastly sham that is social partnership , enough time has been wasted consulting jumped up beardos on thier opinions on how the country should conduct its affairs , time now to govern

Dannyboy83

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Fianna Fail screwed up royally. They created this. Of course all areas need to be looked at for cuts etc. Of course unions will be up in arms. We've seen it all before.
Public Service pay is one amoungst the multitude of areas we should be looking at. The only difference is Fianna Fail can deflect from themselves in providing the public with scape goats, such as public service workers. They are trying to evoke a sense of empathy from the public, ("We're trying to fix everything but the public service won't think of the children!") who should be calling for their blood and they know it.

I agree, to an extent.

Begg "The people who condemned this union initiative out of hand concentrated solely on the bridging mechanism for 2010, which was only a secondary part of the overall plan. They failed to appreciate, or perhaps did not want to hear the detailed blueprints for medium-term reform and cost savings set out in documents agreed for each sector of the public service, which were the primary focus of the union proposal."
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/16913365/

I disagree.
I've been following this calamity since the start.
I never heard any proposals of medium term reform.
All I heard was refusals.
Begg is entitled to his opinion, but regardless, he has failed to convey it to the public.

My stance on this is; yes cuts need to be made. Unions have a right to strike when Fianna Fail wants to make changes without proper debate. Fianna Fail are loving the whole Public/Private debacle....divide and win over.

[/quote]
I disagree.
The Union leaders made themselves the targets. At every opportunity.

DeVore

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Fianna Fail screwed up royally. They created this. Of course all areas need to be looked at for cuts etc. Of course unions will be up in arms. We've seen it all before.
Public Service pay is one amoungst the multitude of areas we should be looking at. The only difference is Fianna Fail can deflect from themselves in providing the public with scape goats, such as public service workers. They are trying to evoke a sense of empathy from the public, ("We're trying to fix everything but the public service won't think of the children!") who should be calling for their blood and they know it.


Begg "The people who condemned this union initiative out of hand concentrated solely on the bridging mechanism for 2010, which was only a secondary part of the overall plan. They failed to appreciate, or perhaps did not want to hear the detailed blueprints for medium-term reform and cost savings set out in documents agreed for each sector of the public service, which were the primary focus of the union proposal."
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/16913365/

My stance on this is; yes cuts need to be made. Unions have a right to strike when Fianna Fail wants to make changes without proper debate. Fianna Fail are loving the whole Public/Private debacle....divide and win over.

If Mr Begg wants to come here and answer our questions and detail his medium term reform plans, I will give him all the platform he can cope with. I will give him an unfettered, unrestricted, unedited platform to potentially 0.5 Million irish people seated in the state, this month.

Serious offer, no catches.

DeV.

Arnold Layne

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Fianna Fail screwed up royally. They created this. Of course all areas need to be looked at for cuts etc. Of course unions will be up in arms. We've seen it all before.
Public Service pay is one amoungst the multitude of areas we should be looking at. The only difference is Fianna Fail can deflect from themselves in providing the public with scape goats, such as public service workers. They are trying to evoke a sense of empathy from the public, ("We're trying to fix everything but the public service won't think of the children!") who should be calling for their blood and they know it.


Begg "The people who condemned this union initiative out of hand concentrated solely on the bridging mechanism for 2010, which was only a secondary part of the overall plan. They failed to appreciate, or perhaps did not want to hear the detailed blueprints for medium-term reform and cost savings set out in documents agreed for each sector of the public service, which were the primary focus of the union proposal."
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/16913365/

My stance on this is; yes cuts need to be made. Unions have a right to strike when Fianna Fail wants to make changes without proper debate. Fianna Fail are loving the whole Public/Private debacle....divide and win over.

I wonder how Begg is going to act now with the pending redundancies in Aer Lingus, being on its board an' all

gnxx

With the unions kicked out of the negotiations, maybe Lenihan and others in Finance will grow some balls and take on the other vested interests like the banks and IBEC.

After the years of mismanagement of the countries finances, we need a budget that makes everybody equally unhappy

I will say it again, if the government started the budget with 50% cuts in their own pay, they would have the moral high-ground to implement a punishing budget.

It will be interesting to see if we see some action in the areas of corporation tax, capital gains and the closing of loopholes that allow certain members of society avoid paying their share of the tax burden.

CeNedra

FF pulled a master stroke. They have the unions where they want them. The Unions need some public support for any serious action to work. Outside of those working in the public sector they don't have support at all. They are in a very hostile environment. It got even more hostile this week when it was leaked (by the unions??) that they had agreements on 12 weeks leave. The public were up in arms over that one .... cop out.

Where ever they go from here the Govt has more public support on this issue then they have. The Govt are in a position to royally screw public sector workers on the wage front next Wed. Will be interesting to see how much the wages drop by........
Labour have dropped big time in my estimation .... what in Gods name would they do to cut cost out of the public sector current expenditure????

irish_bob

CeNedra wrote: »

FF pulled a master stroke. They have the unions where they want them. The Unions need some public support for any serious action to work. Outside of those working in the public sector they don't have support at all. They are in a very hostile environment. It got even more hostile this week when it was leaked (by the unions??) that they had agreements on 12 weeks leave. The public were up in arms over that one .... cop out.

Where ever they go from here the Govt has more public support on this issue then they have. The Govt are in a position to royally screw public sector workers on the wage front next Wed. Will be interesting to see how much the wages drop by........
Labour have dropped big time in my estimation .... what in Gods name would they do to cut cost out of the public sector current expenditure????

most leaders and goverments would now move in for the kill and finish off the stinking beasts that are the unions and while they have the support of the general public , having heard him interviewed on the 6 o clock news , cowen the coward ( who through pressure from his own party did the right thing ) still clings to the corrupt blanket that is social partnership

Poccington

As a PS worker, I can honestly say I'm glad the Government put the foot down on this particular issue. The Unions are completely out of hand in this country, the past few weeks have shown that.

Our country is in a bad way financially... 12 days unpaid leave would only ever be a temporary attempt at fixing things, what would happen next year?

PS pay reform is inevitable, no amount of unpaid leave is going to change that.

I just hope that the reforms are done in a fair manner, rather than a hatchet job.