Talks Between Gov. and unions break down

MG

Hurrah! Good news at last. Enough of the faffing around. They've had 18 months. Get on fixing the public finances.

square leg

As a teacher - and before you reach for the reply buttons - I support the government on this one. I am deeply ashamed to be a member of a union after this weeks debacle.
There are many good teachers but we as a profession are all to blame for signing up to the mantra that all teachers are the same and should have looked for meaningful ways to pay those who were prepared to work harder more rather than turning teaching in a greyocracy where merit was judged by how long you were in the classroom and not by what you actually were prepared to do or your actual talent. Now we will reap the whirlwind in the budget. I will not take part in any further action proposed by my or any other union
May I also add that everyday I remind myself how lucky I am to have a job and I wish more teachers would show a realistic commonsense attitude about the present situation.

thebman

CeNedra wrote: »

FF pulled a master stroke. They have the unions where they want them. The Unions need some public support for any serious action to work. Outside of those working in the public sector they don't have support at all. They are in a very hostile environment. It got even more hostile this week when it was leaked (by the unions??) that they had agreements on 12 weeks leave. The public were up in arms over that one .... cop out.

Where ever they go from here the Govt has more public support on this issue then they have. The Govt are in a position to royally screw public sector workers on the wage front next Wed. Will be interesting to see how much the wages drop by........
Labour have dropped big time in my estimation .... what in Gods name would they do to cut cost out of the public sector current expenditure????

Agree with this, all the pre-emptive strikes have done is p*** off private sector workers. As someone in work put it, I can't say it to <insert relatives name here> but they have it way too easy compared to whats happening in the private sector.

Many of the people that appear to be supporting the public sector IRL, I very much doubt if they actually do if those people aren't within ear shot.

FF seem to be realising this and despite my dislike for them, I think Brian Cowen could at least recover some support for them by taking on the unions and winning and getting some proper reform for the public sector to make it more efficient. I don't think it would be enough that I'd actually vote for them though since they created the mess in the first place that has made these cuts required.

Realistically if cuts weren't required in the public sector, I'd support them but its not sustainable anymore in its current form.

sold

kev9100 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1204/partnership.html

This was a great oppurtunity for ff and they blew it.

Actually!! I think its the best decision FF ever made!!!

oncevotedff

sold wrote: »

Actually!! I think its the best decision FF ever made!!!

It is.

Because come the next election we needn't feel one bit guilty about ramming it up Fianna Fail's ass.:D

Eutow

kev9100 wrote: »

I`m sorry, but i don`t understand your point at all. Are you suggesting that a legislature has a right to dictate to a union what it can or cannot do? You may not like the unions, but they have a right to act in whatever way they believe is best for their members.

So to hell with the country then yeah? Only thinking about yourselves. It is this stupid attitude that is ONE of the reasons why this country is bankrupt, and it's a reason why we have self-seeking parasites in a position of power.

Why should public-sector workers be immune from job cuts and pay cuts?

Unions should not be able to dictate and hold the country to ransom because a government wants to introduce efficiencies into an inefficient wasteful sector. Companies in the private sector have had continuous improvement policies for years. It's about time the public sector had a bit of cop-on and introduced it themselves.

Unions should not be able to act in whatever way they want. You serve the public, not yourselves, hence why it is called the PUBLIC-sector.

Sand

Unions should not be able to dictate and hold the country to ransom because a government wants to introduce efficiencies into an inefficient wasteful sector.

They cant dictate or hold the country to ransom. They have been given every incentive to believe they can due to public partnership, but whats the worst the unions can do? Go on a 3 month strike, see their members fall in arrears on their mortgage and lose their homes?

The lower paid public sector workers seem to be waking up to the fact that theyre being used as puppets for the admin staff on the 60K - 250K wages. Unions have always been parasites, both on business and the govenment, but also on their own members.

vinylbomb

If Cowen (but I think the main force will be Lenihan) dont absolutely CRUSH the PS unions now it'll be a seriously wasted opportunity.

That partnership shambles should be rolled back gradually to 2006 levels.

frman

vinylbomb wrote: »

If Cowen (but I think the main force will be Lenihan) dont absolutely CRUSH the PS unions now it'll be a seriously wasted opportunity.

I agree. It is time to bring the hammer down on the Unions. Union representatives have no place in determining economic policy of a country.

gally74

ive actually heard of people withdrawing from the cs union,

delighted to hear it,

there is a way forward for this country, but people need to wake up and innovate their way out, how can unions think they hold the cards on change in a ny job,

unions had their place when employee legisiation was weak many years ago, however now they cant run a country!

imstrongerthanu

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055761229

SARZY

oncevotedff wrote: »

It is.

Because come the next election we needn't feel one bit guilty about ramming it up Fianna Fail's ass.:D

We might get a chance sooner than we think. Getting the budget thru is going to be interesting. Might be a January election if Mc Daid and Grealish and 1 or 2 others are Man enough to back up the spin.

No actually, 'man enough' is not what TD's do.

Steviemak

vinylbomb wrote: »

If Cowen (but I think the main force will be Lenihan) dont absolutely CRUSH the PS unions now it'll be a seriously wasted opportunity.

The take away the tax credit for Trade Union fees for a start. Hit the unions where it hurts - in the pockets. The trade union leading socialists are all on €150k +. Parasites:mad:. Pay yourself an average wage like the rest of us and then you might have some credibility.

irish_bob

vinylbomb wrote: »

If Cowen (but I think the main force will be Lenihan) dont absolutely CRUSH the PS unions now it'll be a seriously wasted opportunity.

That partnership shambles should be rolled back gradually to 2006 levels.

lets not loose the run of ourselves here , fianna fail are not the kind of party to follow through all the way , while they won a victory , being a quientesentially populist party , they dont believe in slaying enemys , they dont even believe in enemys full stop , they believe in being all things to all men , listening to cowen on six - one yesterday evening , i have no doubt they wish to keep on reasonable terms with the unions , cowen is at the end of day the same as bertie ( minus the charisma ) when it comes to how he does things , had thier been a single alternative to pay cuts or breaking ranks with the unions , biffo would have chosen it , luckily for the rest of us , he had no choice but to lay down the law to the beards but as sure as night follows day , when prosperity returns , fianna fail will be courting the unions , anyone who truly wishes to see the country rid of theese narrow idealogues must vote for another party

that said , at least with fianna fail , they can sometimes get it right , they are practical and therefore flexible , labour on the other hand genuinley believe that public servants are of a higher moral calibre than those who work in the vulgar pure capitalist private sector and would oppose cutting ties with unions regardless of the cost to the country , personally , i would vote in fianna fail again ( especially if lennehan took over ) as bad as they are rather than see labour involvement in any goverment and seeing that fine gael dont seem willing to go all out for the private sector vote or ditch their flat tyre of a leader , thier is little option but to stick with the soldiers of destiny , for now

irish_bob

Steviemak wrote: »

The take away the tax credit for Trade Union fees for a start. Hit the unions where it hurts - in the pockets. The trade union leading socialists are all on €150k +. Parasites:mad:. Pay yourself an average wage like the rest of us and then you might have some credibility.

indeed , the unions cloak themselves in language like equal society and solidarity while at the same time insisting on a 25% pay differential between public and private sector

thebman

irish_bob wrote: »

lets not loose the run of ourselves here , fianna fail are not the kind of party to follow through all the way , while they won a victory , being a quientesentially populist party , they dont believe in slaying enemys , they dont even believe in enemys full stop , they believe in being all things to all men ,

Yeah well they are stuck between a rock and a hard place now. Votes lost either way so go against the unions or against the private sector.

I'm guessing that must seem ironic if you believe it was the government that was trying to get both sectors to argue against each other.

brianthebard

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Fianna Fail screwed up royally. They created this. Of course all areas need to be looked at for cuts etc. Of course unions will be up in arms. We've seen it all before.
Public Service pay is one amoungst the multitude of areas we should be looking at. The only difference is Fianna Fail can deflect from themselves in providing the public with scape goats, such as public service workers. They are trying to evoke a sense of empathy from the public, ("We're trying to fix everything but the public service won't think of the children!") who should be calling for their blood and they know it.


Begg "The people who condemned this union initiative out of hand concentrated solely on the bridging mechanism for 2010, which was only a secondary part of the overall plan. They failed to appreciate, or perhaps did not want to hear the detailed blueprints for medium-term reform and cost savings set out in documents agreed for each sector of the public service, which were the primary focus of the union proposal."
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/16913365/

My stance on this is; yes cuts need to be made. Unions have a right to strike when Fianna Fail wants to make changes without proper debate. Fianna Fail are loving the whole Public/Private debacle....divide and win over.

QFT. Where does the idea that cuts=reform come from? I don't believe the unions are blocking reform, there has not been anything to suggest that the government is trying to reform the public sector to make it work better, only that they want to cut wages. The division between workers now is insane, obviously everyone is scared, but in their haste to be told everything's all right again the general populace seem willing to throw anyone under the train, no matter what. When this is all over and the dust settles, there will be more recrimination as they realise what they've done.

I haven't heard one word from the government or anyone on boards who hates the unions about job creation, but they're more than happy to call for cuts.

DeVore wrote: »

If Mr Begg wants to come here and answer our questions and detail his medium term reform plans, I will give him all the platform he can cope with. I will give him an unfettered, unrestricted, unedited platform to potentially 0.5 Million irish people seated in the state, this month.

Serious offer, no catches.

DeV.

If this was a serious offer then you'd want to send it to his office rather than just making a post on boards. Might get his attention quicker.

thebman

brianthebard wrote: »

QFT. Where does the idea that cuts=reform come from? I don't believe the unions are blocking reform, there has not been anything to suggest that the government is trying to reform the public sector to make it work better, only that they want to cut wages.

Unions exist to protect their members. If a members job can be done by a computer they will fight against the introduction of the computer system even if the computer could do 200 times the amount of work in one day that the person could.

Unions because of what their role is, prevent efficiencies and changes to work practices in many cases.

The division between workers now is insane, obviously everyone is scared, but in their haste to be told everything's all right again the general populace seem willing to throw anyone under the train, no matter what. When this is all over and the dust settles, there will be more recrimination as they realise what they've done.

People aren't doing anything except demanding the government get their books in order. Doesn't matter how that happens but it has to happen. Cuts could be intelligent but the government probably left it too late to do that.

I haven't heard one word from the government or anyone on boards who hates the unions about job creation, but they're more than happy to call for cuts.

You can't force jobs to exist. You can give incentives I guess but you need money to do that and the government doesn't have any.

The best they can hope to do is remove red tape which they should do. The budget is the immediate concern though as without cuts there won't be a government next year.

DeVore

I'm deadly serious and I make the same offer to the IBEC crowd. We'll mail them on Monday morning but I'd put my bollox we will never hear back from them.

No one wants the public to scrutinise things here. They want you to accept their soundbitten point scoring.

DeV.

FlutterinBantam

brianthebard wrote: »

QFT. Where does the idea that cuts=reform come from? I don't believe the unions are blocking reform, there has not been anything to suggest that the government is trying to reform the public sector to make it work better, only that they want to cut wages. The division between workers now is insane, obviously everyone is scared, but in their haste to be told everything's all right again the general populace seem willing to throw anyone under the train, no matter what. When this is all over and the dust settles, there will be more recrimination as they realise what they've done.

I haven't heard one word from the government or anyone on boards who hates the unions about job creation, but they're more than happy to call for cuts.


If this was a serious offer then you'd want to send it to his office rather than just making a post on boards. Might get his attention quicker.

I wouldn't bother actually, all you would get is outdated rhetoric.

Set up a 'common sense and reality forum' and maybe he might contribute one post out of 600.;)

pinkfloyd34

SeanW wrote: »

How? From everything I know about the Public Sector, its fat and bloated, full of overpaid, underworked, spoiled, strike-happy tools.

The unions plan didn't deal with any of the multitude of structural deficiencies in the public sector. Enough with this partnership bollix. The PS needs to be taken on, perferably with a chainsaw.

Their plan was just "hey we'll take 12 days off to drive to Newry and fill our cars with crates of booze" ...

im a clerial officer in revenue taking home €460 a week and was laughed at by my mates in the building trade in the good times, i have a mortgage of €800 a month and 2 kids, am i overpaid, underworked, spoiled? , am i not allowed have a house? do i have to accept these cuts and put less food for the kids on the table or miss the mortgage repayments? in revenue we are flat out chasing unpaid taxes by the private sector cos times are tough. i couldnt even afford a trip to newry if i wanted to, most people going up on the day of the strike were cos their kids were out of school, we had to turn up to work to man the picket so you cant put it down to the public sector workers

thebman

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

im a clerial officer in revenue taking home €460 a week and was laughed at by my mates in the building trade in the good times, i have a mortgage of €800 a month and 2 kids, am i overpaid, underworked, spoiled? , am i not allowed have a house? do i have to accept these cuts and put less food for the kids on the table or miss the mortgage repayments? in revenue we are flat out chasing unpaid taxes by the private sector cos times are tough. i couldnt even afford a trip to newry if i wanted to, most people going up on the day of the strike were cos their kids were out of school, we had to turn up to work to man the picket so you cant put it down to the public sector workers

I've never known anyone to get laughed at for having a job. I don't believe anybody that makes such a claim TBH.

evercloserunion

gally74 wrote: »

the country borrowed 22 billion this year,

would you just keep borrowing?

get real, this 4 million next week has to be followed up with another 18 billion over the next 4 years!

all this talk of 1.3 billion, were off by 22 billion

And all this talk of us having to find €22bn by tomorrow or else the IMF will literally sodomise us is very simplistic.

The reason we're in such a deficit now, the reason everyone is in such a deficit now, is that we are in a recession. Nobody has any jobs, so nobody is paying taxes and everybody is on the dole so we're haemorrhaging cash. Recessions are temporary by nature; eventually economies recover, business gets rolling again, people get off the dole (lowering State expenditure) and start paying taxes (increasing revenue). This is how debts are repaid; this is why, even though nobody in their right mind expects us to magically conjure up €22bn out of nowhere, our sovereign bonds are still highly rated and our outlook has been described as stable.

Unless of course somebody wants to keep us in recession for even longer by taking what little money people have left off them... but nobody would be that stupid would they?

evercloserunion

thebman wrote: »

I've never known anyone to get laughed at for having a job. I don't believe anybody that makes such a claim TBH.

I don't know about literally being laughed at but my mother is a civil servant and I heard her being told by a plumber once that he wouldn't get out of bed for what she earns. That is the truth.

FlutterinBantam

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

im a clerial officer in revenue taking home €460 a week and was laughed at by my mates in the building trade in the good times, i have a mortgage of €800 a month and 2 kids, am i overpaid, underworked, spoiled? , am i not allowed have a house? do i have to accept these cuts and put less food for the kids on the table or miss the mortgage repayments? in revenue we are flat out chasing unpaid taxes by the private sector cos times are tough. i couldnt even afford a trip to newry if i wanted to, most people going up on the day of the strike were cos their kids were out of school, we had to turn up to work to man the picket so you cant put it down to the public sector workers

That, to be frank, is a fairly good analysis of our situation in microcosm.

These punters with the breakfast rolls and "the office" in the passenger seat of the Pajero were laughing at everyone during the boom years.

Drove prices through the roof, became arrogant supercilious pricks who made up for lack of education and breeding by flaunting temporary money around the place and probably contributed little enough to the exchequer if the real truth be known.

Got ahead of themselves and never realised that things could change.

I have no sympathy for those kind of people and hope you are giving them the metaphorical finger now and twisting it.

Bobeagleburger

evercloserunion wrote: »

I don't know about literally being laughed at but my mother is a civil servant and I heard her being told by a plumber once that he wouldn't get out of bed for what she earns. That is the truth.

Different story now

pinkfloyd34

thebman wrote: »

I've never known anyone to get laughed at for having a job. I don't believe anybody that makes such a claim TBH.

they were not laughing cos i had a job, they were laughing when we were comparing wages, they were on about €800 - €1,000 a week and i was getting about €350 a week at the time, maybe 2003 2004, now they have big houses and big mortgages and no job but getting social welfare and working for cash a couple of days a week when they can get it, not very funny now

thebman

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

they were not laughing cos i had a job, they were laughing when we were comparing wages, they were on about €800 - €1,000 a week and i was getting about €350 a week at the time, maybe 2003 2004, now they have big houses and big mortgages and no job but getting social welfare and working for cash a couple of days a week when they can get it, not very funny now

People don't just go around comparing wages either.

Most people don't discuss earnings as whats the point?

Anyway you can't sh** on someone for earning more than you. I work in IT and sales people make more than I do for selling the thing I make. Don't see me complaining.

I'd much rather be working in IT than sales on the phone. You get paid what the perceived value of your skill is in most jobs not what you deserve and you get paid what your employer can afford.

We can't all earn the same wage for different jobs. Supply/demand determines wages and you say that plumber is now getting his slump and probably didn't save anything for it either because he was sure the good times would never end. Same with the sales guys who get let go and find that there are no sales jobs out there where as IT still has demand for good people so I managed to find another job where was most of the people I used to work with are still unemployed that were getting paid more than me.

Well the simple fact is I still feel sorry for them because its not the amount of money you get paid anyway as so much of it goes to tax anyway earning more means feck all in many cases. I know them and they are good people and want them to be earning a living. Your a begrudger if you have a go at someone for earning more or less than you and its a conversation for people I don't want to know or talk to TBH.

gerry28

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

im a clerial officer in revenue taking home €460 a week and was laughed at by my mates in the building trade in the good times, i have a mortgage of €800 a month and 2 kids, am i overpaid, underworked, spoiled? , am i not allowed have a house? do i have to accept these cuts and put less food for the kids on the table or miss the mortgage repayments? in revenue we are flat out chasing unpaid taxes by the private sector cos times are tough. i couldnt even afford a trip to newry if i wanted to, most people going up on the day of the strike were cos their kids were out of school, we had to turn up to work to man the picket so you cant put it down to the public sector workers

I agree with that, i shared a house with a carpenter in 2003, he would head off the odd evening for a few of hours work on the side and arrive back with €200 or so.

I was earning €300 a week the time and never admitted it to him.

irish_bob

thebman wrote: »

I've never known anyone to get laughed at for having a job. I don't believe anybody that makes such a claim TBH.

true , the line about public servants being laughed at during the boom is slogan number 3 which is below WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS and above THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM

union rhetoric with no basis in reality