Talks Between Gov. and unions break down

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irish_bob

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

im a clerial officer in revenue taking home €460 a week and was laughed at by my mates in the building trade in the good times, i have a mortgage of €800 a month and 2 kids, am i overpaid, underworked, spoiled? , am i not allowed have a house? do i have to accept these cuts and put less food for the kids on the table or miss the mortgage repayments? in revenue we are flat out chasing unpaid taxes by the private sector cos times are tough. i couldnt even afford a trip to newry if i wanted to, most people going up on the day of the strike were cos their kids were out of school, we had to turn up to work to man the picket so you cant put it down to the public sector workers

a clerical officer is a low skilled job , you can hardly expect to be compared with a carpenter , i would compare a caprenter or plumber with a guard in terms of wage although guards earned more than both this past decade

a clerical officer in the public sector still earns considerably more than a secretary in a solicitor or accountats office in the private sector

pinkfloyd34

irish_bob wrote: »

a clerical officer is a low skilled job , you can hardly expect to be compared with a carpenter , i would compare a caprenter or plumber with a guard in terms of wage although guards earned more than both this past decade

a clerical officer in the public sector still earns considerably more than a secretary in a solicitor or accountats office in the private sector

my mates were labourers on a buiding site and they asked me what i earned in the civil service, alot of skill required to lift a buckets of muck up a ladder
clerical officer does not earn more than a secretary

Trotter

Im a primary teacher in my late 20's. Myself and my wife have an affordable mortgage because we worked out what we could afford before we bought. Having lost a big chunk of my wages earlier in the year and now losing more this Wednesday, my "spendable" money each week is down to the bare minimum. I know how lucky I am to have a job thats secure. I also know that in this case I made my own luck because I left the private sector 4 years ago because security was what I wanted. I see my friends losing their jobs and it is heartbreaking. My working day hasn't changed. The children leave at 3pm and I stay until after 4:30pm. I start my work at half 8. I have 30 mins on average in breaks per day.

Whats hurting me as well as having less money is being treated like scum by commentators in the media. I was not sentenced to teach by a judge for doing something wrong. I chose to teach because I enjoy the fact that I'm helping young people to learn, while having a very secure job.

I understand that I have to take a pay cut because my boss has squandered the company money. I understand that because people see the public sector as thieving lazy people that FF will recover and in years to come we'll complain all over again about banking and developers in the same way as I hear people now seething at teachers, nurses etc.

I rarely post on boards discussions anymore because people see Im a mod of teaching and I cant participate "baggage free" in discussions.

Taking the fact that I have friends and family who are struggling, and taking it that I know Im lucky to have a good job with a wage rate of 40k thats falling....

What have I done wrong?

K-9

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

my mates were labourers on a buiding site and they asked me what i earned in the civil service, alot of skill required to lift a buckets of muck up a ladder
clerical officer does not earn more than a secretary

Would you want to do their work?

Construction wages where crazy, but so was everything to do with the property bubble. The "rent is dead money" mantra is costing people a lot of money these days, but sure us Irish "deserve to own our houses".

irish_bob

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

my mates were labourers on a buiding site and they asked me what i earned in the civil service, alot of skill required to lift a buckets of muck up a ladder
clerical officer does not earn more than a secretary

they most certainly do , they often earn more than a trainee solicitor , you seem to be fixated with construction workers , to borrow a public sector line, why didnt you get a job on a building site , why not get one now ???

irish_bob

Trotter wrote: »

Im a primary teacher in my late 20's. Myself and my wife have an affordable mortgage because we worked out what we could afford before we bought. Having lost a big chunk of my wages earlier in the year and now losing more this Wednesday, my "spendable" money each week is down to the bare minimum. I know how lucky I am to have a job thats secure. I also know that in this case I made my own luck because I left the private sector 4 years ago because security was what I wanted. I see my friends losing their jobs and it is heartbreaking. My working day hasn't changed. The children leave at 3pm and I stay until after 4:30pm. I start my work at half 8. I have 30 mins on average in breaks per day.

Whats hurting me as well as having less money is being treated like scum by commentators in the media. I was not sentenced to teach by a judge for doing something wrong. I chose to teach because I enjoy the fact that I'm helping young people to learn, while having a very secure job.

I understand that I have to take a pay cut because my boss has squandered the company money. I understand that because people see the public sector as thieving lazy people that FF will recover and in years to come we'll complain all over again about banking and developers in the same way as I hear people now seething at teachers, nurses etc.

I rarely post on boards discussions anymore because people see Im a mod of teaching and I cant participate "baggage free" in discussions.

Taking the fact that I have friends and family who are struggling, and taking it that I know Im lucky to have a good job with a wage rate of 40k thats falling....

What have I done wrong?

if the majority of the private sector workforce ( who either lost their job or took paycuts ) had petulantly opposed pay cuts with every bone in thier body and demanded that thier boom time wages be maintained in a time of rescession , all the while claiming they were the biggest victime of the downturn , the media focus would be huge on them also

FlutterinBantam

Trotter wrote: »

Im a primary teacher in my late 20's. Myself and my wife have an affordable mortgage because we worked out what we could afford before we bought. Having lost a big chunk of my wages earlier in the year and now losing more this Wednesday, my "spendable" money each week is down to the bare minimum. I know how lucky I am to have a job thats secure. I also know that in this case I made my own luck because I left the private sector 4 years ago because security was what I wanted. I see my friends losing their jobs and it is heartbreaking. My working day hasn't changed. The children leave at 3pm and I stay until after 4:30pm. I start my work at half 8. I have 30 mins on average in breaks per day.

Whats hurting me as well as having less money is being treated like scum by commentators in the media. I was not sentenced to teach by a judge for doing something wrong. I chose to teach because I enjoy the fact that I'm helping young people to learn, while having a very secure job.

I understand that I have to take a pay cut because my boss has squandered the company money. I understand that because people see the public sector as thieving lazy people that FF will recover and in years to come we'll complain all over again about banking and developers in the same way as I hear people now seething at teachers, nurses etc.

I rarely post on boards discussions anymore because people see Im a mod of teaching and I cant participate "baggage free" in discussions.

Taking the fact that I have friends and family who are struggling, and taking it that I know Im lucky to have a good job with a wage rate of 40k thats falling....

What have I done wrong?

You have elected Union representatives who believe that the general public will swallow their rhetoric whilst earning hundreds of thousands per year.

You have allowed gimps and gombeens to think they actually run the country and that whatever lifestyle they choose to live will be bankrolled by the taxpayer, and that hey have a right to treat the taxpayer like dirt.


Other than that, very little

Trotter

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You have allowed gimps and gombeens to think they actually run the country and that whatever lifestyle they choose to live will be bankrolled by the taxpayer, and that hey have a right to treat the taxpayer like dirt.


Other than that, very little

But why aren't we still crying out that FF have screwed all of us and that the above statement could be attributed to a FF TD in relation to the banks..

I respect you have strong views about the unions, and I'm not going to take you on in that regard.

I would say though that it seems to me that the public service is an easy target for this targetted criticism, right or wrong, and I'm very curious as to why the transferral of massive public money to private companies who screwed us all with political support has been pushed under the rug.

I respect your anger at the unions and can understand the viewpoint. I cant understand why the collective FF amnesia is returning. I can't help thinking that the public service is being lacerated, rightly or wrongly, to divert attention from the real crimes against me and you.

ParkRunner

On a sidenote there have been a lot of calls for increased mobility of staff within the civil/public sector as part of a reform package but are there really any barriers to staff moving around?

I have already worked in 3 government Departments and Im only 27 and hundreds of staff have moved to Social Welfare to cope with the demand there.

thebman

Trotter wrote: »

But why aren't we still crying out that FF have screwed all of us and that the above statement could be attributed to a FF TD in relation to the banks..

I respect you have strong views about the unions, and I'm not going to take you on in that regard.

I would say though that it seems to me that the public service is an easy target for this targetted criticism, right or wrong, and I'm very curious as to why the transferral of massive public money to private companies who screwed us all with political support has been pushed under the rug.

I respect your anger at the unions and can understand the viewpoint. I cant understand why the collective FF amnesia is returning. I can't help thinking that the public service is being lacerated, rightly or wrongly, to divert attention from the real crimes against me and you.

NAMA has already had its legislation based and is inevitable as this point despite most peoples opposition to it.

People can't do anything about NAMA and we go back to b****ng about it after the budget is released. Public sector pay is the focus because it is one of the largest items of expenditure on government books and the budget is next week.

Its perfectly logical for it to be the topic of discussion when the government face such a deficit.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

gerry28

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think Fianna Fail are getting away lightly here too, they were at the table at every wage talks. If we are overpaid and over staffed where were they in putting a stop to it.

I can just see them weathering the storm until the next election and gettin voted in for yet another term. After all they have done.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

evercloserunion

EF wrote: »

On a sidenote there have been a lot of calls for increased mobility of staff within the civil/public sector as part of a reform package but are there really any barriers to staff moving around?

I have already worked in 3 government Departments and Im only 27 and hundreds of staff have moved to Social Welfare to cope with the demand there.

I was talking about this with a civil servant earlier on. In some offices staff were promised but never delivered. Desks and chairs were put in for them but they now sit there unused. I have heard that people have been applying to be transferred but have not gotten any word back. The unions are saying they want workers to be able to be transferred but management are not letting it happen. the management are saying the exact opposite, that they want to transfer staff but the unions are blocking it. Meanwhile many social welfare offices simply cannot cope with the pressure of the increased workload. This, combined with all the government's campaign to demonise PS workers in order to justify a savage assault on their livelihoods, has worker morale very low with many just about at breaking point.

irish_bob

evercloserunion wrote: »

I was talking about this with a civil servant earlier on. In some offices staff were promised but never delivered. Desks and chairs were put in for them but they now sit there unused. I have heard that people have been applying to be transferred but have not gotten any word back. The unions are saying they want workers to be able to be transferred but management are not letting it happen. the management are saying the exact opposite, that they want to transfer staff but the unions are blocking it. Meanwhile many social welfare offices simply cannot cope with the pressure of the increased workload. This, combined with all the government's campaign to demonise PS workers in order to justify a savage assault on their livelihoods, has worker morale very low with many just about at breaking point.

refusal to allow a liberalisation of internal workings in the civil service regarding transfer of staff etc is purely an internal matter , its nothing to do with pay cuts , the tax payer etc , why bring it up

gizmo555

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

my mates were labourers on a buiding site and they asked me what i earned in the civil service, alot of skill required to lift a buckets of muck up a ladder
clerical officer does not earn more than a secretary

Not skilled maybe, but hard physical outdoor work in all weathers and considerably more hazardous than clerical work where the biggest danger is probably a paper cut . . .

Not really a useful comparison.

irish_bob

suzyball wrote: »

I have to say that I disagree with this statement Irish Bob. I am a clerical officer in a Legal Department of a public body. I was made redundant from a private sector job in 2005 and decided to do a legal secretarial course and the usual ECDL ect with the redundancy payment. Whilst still unemployed a Clerical Officer job came up for me in this organisation, during my time there I began to study law off my own bat and eventually got moved to a Law Department. In my course I met many legal secretaries working in private practices all over the county and I can honestly tell you that with the exception of just 1 they were ALL earning more than me. Some of them even had flexi time in their jobs but these were mostly top five law firms offering these perks (gym on site, healthcare, flexi etc) They advised me to go outside to the private sector as the work was more varied. A close friend was earning over 32 thousand a year with the same amount of experience ( that was 7 thousand more than me.

I am lucky to have a job, but I dont consider myself to be low skilled. Just because I have only achieved clerical officer grade in 4 years as there have been no promotions available to me. I come with a set of skills that are very helpful to me in my job and are beneficial to my employer as i need a lot less training. I accept that I will have to take the paycut as I am a realist but if I only come out with 420 euro per week after deductions I dont know how much more cuts I can absorb. I am not defending the public sector but I have seen you use this comparison between a legal secretary and a clerical officer and it is not entirely true Irish Bob!

always irritates me when people talk of what they come out with after deductions , i.e , a nurse talking of how she only takes home 700 per week after deductions , in reality she could be on 50 k per year before tax

its GROSS pay or nothing , enough of this quoting take home pay

Shea O'Meara

irish_bob wrote: »

always irritates me when people talk of what they come out with after deductions , i.e , a nurse talking of how she only takes home 700 per week after deductions , in reality she could be on 50 k per year before tax

its GROSS pay or nothing , enough of this quoting take home pay

You get irritated because people aren't specific enough? Almost every time you post it's vague generalisms

irish_bob wrote: »

a clerical officer is a low skilled job , you can hardly expect to be compared with a carpenter , i would compare a caprenter or plumber with a guard in terms of wage although guards earned more than both this past decade

Are you telling me a tradesman earning during the boom, made less than a guard? You must be doing one of your 'average' calculations again.

I wonder why some teachers go on the sites during the summer what with all they money they make, must be just greedy;)

gerry28

irish_bob wrote: »

always irritates me when people talk of what they come out with after deductions , i.e , a nurse talking of how she only takes home 700 per week after deductions , in reality she could be on 50 k per year before tax

its GROSS pay or nothing , enough of this quoting take home pay

Come on irish bob, its take home pay that matters you can't buy a loaf of bread with the money going to the revenue.

fartmaster

irish_bob wrote: »

always irritates me when people talk of what they come out with after deductions , i.e , a nurse talking of how she only takes home 700 per week after deductions , in reality she could be on 50 k per year before tax

its GROSS pay or nothing , enough of this quoting take home pay

Cop on Bob, you cant spend your Gross pay!

who_ru

i think most of the paycuts will be focused on the higher earners in the public sector - which i understand has a total workforce of approx 375,000 people, of which over 20% earn over 100,000k per year. this is where the cuts need to and should happen. how the hell can unions defend such largess?

those on lower payscales will obviously have a much reduced paycut , maybe 2% or so.

K-9

who_ru wrote: »

i think most of the paycuts will be focused on the higher earners in the public sector - which i understand has a total workforce of approx 375,000 people, of which over 20% earn over 100,000k per year. this is where the cuts need to and should happen. how the hell can unions defend such largess?

those on lower payscales will obviously have a much reduced paycut , maybe 2% or so.

Jaysus, I don't know if 75,000 are on above 100k. You have a link on it?

bean na gaeilge

SeanW wrote: »

How? From everything I know about the Public Sector, its fat and bloated, full of overpaid, underworked, spoiled, strike-happy tools.

The unions plan didn't deal with any of the multitude of structural deficiencies in the public sector. Enough with this partnership bollix. The PS needs to be taken on, perferably with a chainsaw.

Their plan was just "hey we'll take 12 days off to drive to Newry and fill our cars with crates of booze" ...

This has just sickened me to the core. I am a teacher and I am on a temporary contract - I know people who are on social welfare and are earning more a week between the dole, rent allowence, fuel allowence etc who are earning more than my take home pay a week - I have already taken two cuts since I started teaching in Sept 08 - the income levy and pension levy - I have no job security and I have the likes of you who are tarring all of us with the same brush!

This country has no incentive for people to work - some days I wake up and think would I be better off getting my 214 euro, rent allowence and other benefits like a medical card and single mothers allowence?

Only that I love my job and have some self worth I would have thrown in the towel once the going got tough.... so public sector is not all it is cut out to be - until you work it - don't judge it!

PS Not one of my collegues or any of my friends who teach went up the North shopping on the day of the Strike - I myself voted no when balloted for Strike action for one simple reason - I cannot afford to go on strike and loose a days pay!!! :mad:

thebman

fartmaster wrote: »

Cop on Bob, you cant spend your Gross pay!

But it is how most people refer to their wages especially if negotiating wages or looking at pay scales.

No harm in giving both TBH to remove any confusion if your posting your wages although I'm not saying anyone should because I don't care how much individual people on here earn. Thats your business.

bean na gaeilge

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

This has just sickened me to the core. I am a teacher and I am on a temporary contract - I know people who are on social welfare and are earning more a week between the dole, rent allowence, fuel allowence etc who are earning more than my take home pay a week - I have already taken two cuts since I started teaching in Sept 08 - the income levy and pension levy - I have no job security and I have the likes of you who are tarring all of us with the same brush!

This country has no incentive for people to work - some days I wake up and think would I be better off getting my 214 euro, rent allowence and other benefits like a medical card and single mothers allowence?

Only that I love my job and have some self worth I would have thrown in the towel once the going got tough.... so public sector is not all it is cut out to be - until you work it - don't judge it!

PS Not one of my collegues or any of my friends who teach went up the North shopping on the day of the Strike - I myself voted no when balloted for Strike action for one simple reason - I cannot afford to go on strike and loose a days pay!!! :mad:

This is not just directed at you Seán - Its for all the other people who think they know it all and have a pretty dreamy vision of public sector workers!!! They do not know what they are on about! I won't deny that there are plenty over-paid public servants but it is in fact a minority - not the whole picture!

irish_bob

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

You get irritated because people aren't specific enough? Almost every time you post it's vague generalisms
Are you telling me a tradesman earning during the boom, made less than a guard? You must be doing one of your 'average' calculations again.

I wonder why some teachers go on the sites during the summer what with all they money they make, must be just greedy;)

other than union spin , what reason have your to believe that guards didnt earn more , the building contractor made more , the carpenter , plumber , electrician or labourer made less this past decade , especially when you factor in pensions , the guards boom continues to this day , most of the others ive mentioned have been on the scrap heap this past two years

irish_bob

gerry28 wrote: »

Come on irish bob, its take home pay that matters you can't buy a loaf of bread with the money going to the revenue.

when the terms of a job are advertised in adds etc , which is mentioned , GROSS PAY or NET

akakeno

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

This country has no incentive for people to work - some days I wake up and think would I be better off getting my 214 euro, rent allowence and other benefits like a medical card and single mothers allowence?
.......

I myself voted no when balloted for Strike action for one simple reason - I cannot afford to go on strike and loose a days pay!!! :mad:

I'm new to Boards and this tread but I feel for people like bean na gaeilge in all this... I agree that there is no incentive for people to work, but is it because the welfare system is too generous? Nobody should want to be on welfare more then have a job!

As for loosing your day of pay, again I do feel sorry for someone in your situation but really not for the vast majority; roll on sustained industrial actions and lots of days savings for the exchequer.

Shea O'Meara

irish_bob wrote: »

other than union spin , what reason have your to believe that guards didnt earn more , the building contractor made more , the carpenter , plumber , electrician or labourer made less this past decade , especially when you factor in pensions , the guards boom continues to this day , most of the others ive mentioned have been on the scrap heap this past two years

Firstly, you said 'guards earned more than both, (plumbers/carpenters) in the past decade.' I'm asking you, really? Can you show us with some links to actual facts?
Now, I am in disbelief as I know a lot of tradesmen and one Guard personally. The impression I was given during the boom, (even though you switched it to the last two years in your post above) was that everybody in building was flying.
So can you show me where you get Guards earning more than Plumbers and Carpenters during the boom?