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Israel Refuses Minister Martin access to visit Gaza.

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  • 04-12-2009 6:53pm
    #1
    mrtaylor1981
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭


    Should the Irish government therefore expel the Israeli Ambassador ? Or will the Israeli govt just get away with it and cry anti Semitism if anyone criticizes them ?

    " MINISTER FOR Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin has been refused permission to visit Gaza by the Israeli authorities, he told an Oireachtas committee.
    Speaking at the Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs yesterday, Mr Martin said no substantive reason had been given for the refusal. Similar requests from other European countries had also been turned down.
    “I just wanted to go in myself and see Gaza,” he said.
    A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said the initial request to visit Gaza had been made last month. The department had been advised by the Israeli government last week that access was not possible
    A spokesman for the Israeli embassy said Mr Martin was not being singled out, and he was “always welcome” to visit Israel. “It is not the appropriate time to visit Gaza because of the Hamas terrorist regime that controls it. This can pose a . . . security risk,” the spokesman added.
    Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said.
    “The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel is utterly unjustified . . . Denying access to our Minister for Foreign Affairs only serves to give the impression that Israel is unwilling to let the outside world see the suffering which is going on.”
    Mr Martin told the committee that the humanitarian situation in Gaza was “completely unacceptable”. He said if progress was not realised quickly, “then the international community as a whole may need to reconsider what further pressure it can bring in favour of achieving a negotiated, two-state settlement”.
    He urged the Israeli government to provide “further clear evidence” it was serious about engaging in peace negotiations, “and not, instead, more preoccupied with simply managing what I fear could well escalate into a situation of incipient conflict”.
    He called for a halt to settlement construction in east Jerusalem and elsewhere, and an end to the policy of forced evictions and demolition of homes. "

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260044230.html


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    #2
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Politely tell the minister to visit Saudi Arabia instead.


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    #3
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    mrtaylor1981 wrote: »
    Should the Irish government therefore expel the Israeli Ambassador ? Or will the Israeli govt just get away with it and cry anti Semitism if anyone criticizes them ?

    " MINISTER FOR Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin has been refused permission to visit Gaza by the Israeli authorities, he told an Oireachtas committee.
    Speaking at the Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs yesterday, Mr Martin said no substantive reason had been given for the refusal. Similar requests from other European countries had also been turned down.
    “I just wanted to go in myself and see Gaza,” he said.
    A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said the initial request to visit Gaza had been made last month. The department had been advised by the Israeli government last week that access was not possible
    A spokesman for the Israeli embassy said Mr Martin was not being singled out, and he was “always welcome” to visit Israel. “It is not the appropriate time to visit Gaza because of the Hamas terrorist regime that controls it. This can pose a . . . security risk,” the spokesman added.
    Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said.
    “The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel is utterly unjustified . . . Denying access to our Minister for Foreign Affairs only serves to give the impression that Israel is unwilling to let the outside world see the suffering which is going on.”
    Mr Martin told the committee that the humanitarian situation in Gaza was “completely unacceptable”. He said if progress was not realised quickly, “then the international community as a whole may need to reconsider what further pressure it can bring in favour of achieving a negotiated, two-state settlement”.
    He urged the Israeli government to provide “further clear evidence” it was serious about engaging in peace negotiations, “and not, instead, more preoccupied with simply managing what I fear could well escalate into a situation of incipient conflict”.
    He called for a halt to settlement construction in east Jerusalem and elsewhere, and an end to the policy of forced evictions and demolition of homes. "

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260044230.html

    dead right, more pressing matters at home.


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    #4
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    they dont want anyone going to Gaza and seeing it for what it is

    a giant concentration camp

    reporters are not allowed either, makes you wonder whats going on there


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    #5
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    If the Israeli's are that concerned about Martin's safety, let a CP team travel with him or else supply one upon his arrival.


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    #6
    loobylou
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭loobylou


    Whats a CP team?:confused::confused:


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    #7
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    loobylou wrote: »
    Whats a CP team?:confused::confused:

    A Close Protection Team.

    They'd basically be acting as armed bodyguards for Minister Martin.


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    #8
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.


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    #9
    Lab_Mouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Lab_Mouse


    Overheal wrote: »
    I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.

    he was refused access to gaza not saudi or am I missing something?


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    #10
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    They refused him access because they don't want him to see the horrors that the Palestinian people live with. It's nothing to do with his safety.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    dead right, more pressing matters at home.

    Mícheál Martin is the minister for Foreign Affairs. The Palestinians live in unfathomable conditions. There are few things more pressing than the conditions that those poor people have to live under.


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    #11
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Overheal wrote: »
    I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.


    ...or we're a bit sick of hearing "Go to saudi" as an answer in any thread relating to the middle east, muslims etc.


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    #12
    square leg
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭square leg


    Frankly is anyone suprised? The Israelis are a law onto themselves and always will be as long as the US back them no matter what they do. The analogy to Saudi Arabia is silly - Saudi Arabia does not claim to be a democracy and to follow Western Liberal traditions. Israel does and should be judged by those standards. By the way I think what the Saudis (and the Iranians) do is disgraceful but that is not the issue at hand.
    By the way watch the issue die quickly in the media.

    Treatment of the Palestinians is a blot on the Western World as we back Israel - easy to blame the Israelis all the time but a bully will act as a bully as long as you allow him (or her) to do it.


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    #13
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...or we're a bit sick of hearing "Go to saudi" as an answer in any thread relating to the middle east, muslims etc.
    Maybe im just sick of hearing IsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsrael and maybe its time you stopped obsessing about Israel when theres plenty of obsessing to go around.


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    #14
    square leg
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭square leg


    But do you think that it is wrong that Martin has been banned from entering Gaza or are you going to keep putting up a facile argument?


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    #15
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Seems quite serious to refuse a Minister access to any region.

    If they are doing the same to the rest of the EU, I think as a group they should be asking why and insisting that someone from the EU be allowed to visit Gazza with the relevant protection to make sure people don't get the wrong opinion of what Israel are up to.


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    #16
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    square leg wrote: »
    But do you think that it is wrong that Martin has been banned from entering Gaza or are you going to keep putting up a facile argument?
    I agree that the whole Gaza scenario is fecked. Actually im more annoyed at the Comittee Chairman for this remark:

    "Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said.    "

    As though to say Israel is the only place Irish Foreign Ministers are restricted from visiting that are suspect or confirmed to be comitting human rights abuses.

    It goes back to the whole Negroponte doctrine; and with the UN absolutely blasting Israel and the Gaza strip, but has had comparably little to say about the rest of the region whether that be Palestine, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.


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    #17
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    Maybe im just sick of hearing IsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsrael and maybe its time you stopped obsessing about Israel when theres plenty of obsessing to go around.

    Who are you to decide what interests a person can have?

    I'm going to have to bring you back down to earth - The reason you consistently hear about Israel isn't because people are obsessing about the issue. The reason you hear about Israel so often is because of their asinine policies, war-crimes against innocent people and ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian territories.

    So instead of questioning why a "democratic" state would block an elected Irish minister for Foreign affairs - You question people who have engaged with the thread? Agenda much? :rolleyes:


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    #18
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    I agree that the whole Gaza scenario is fecked. Actually im more annoyed at the Comittee Chairman for this remark:

    "Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said.    "

    As though to say Israel is the only place Irish Foreign Ministers are restricted from visiting that are suspect or confirmed to be comitting human rights abuses.

    Um, might it be because the topic of what he was speaking about was infact, TD Martin's blocked access? Hello?

    Now - if it so happened that he was blocked from access to 2 different countries in a close time span (let's say Israel and Iran) - Then we could compare and contrast it in a meaningful context. But not your, nonsensical, totally out of base context that really makes no sense whatsoever.

    The fact that you are more annoyed about comments made by some Johnny randomer, than Israel blocking an elected official access to a region under severe conditions says an awful lot about your agenda.


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    #19
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Um, might it be because the topic of what he was speaking about was infact, TD Martin's blocked access? Hello?

    Now - if it so happened that he was blocked from access to 2 different countries in a close time span (let's say Israel and Iran) - Then we could compare and contrast it in a meaningful context. But not your, nonsensical, totally out of base context that really makes no sense whatsoever.

    The fact that you are more annoyed about comments made by some Johnny randomer, than Israel blocking an elected official access to a region under severe conditions says an awful lot about your agenda.
    1) I dont have an agenda. 1a) How f@#king dare you. 1b) Thats incredibly Ad Hominem.

    2) Totally nonsensical is it? Im just saying I dont hear the Ministers in a Huff trying to investigate Saudi Arabia, DPRK, China, etc. and why? Because they're doing it behind their own borders? Yes China. You can force your population into slave working conditions. And Saudi its cool you can stone your teenagers for getting raped by people that arent their 50 year old husbands. Just dont do it in somebody else's lawn, or we'll send you an angry letter and be very unhappy with you.

    If that doesnt make sense to you head back to vivapalestina.

    3) What f@#king Agenda? Maybe you can explain what my agenda is, without using the words Tinfoil, Freemason, CIA, FBI and Conspiracy.

    4) As for visiting 2 countries in a short space of time: when was the last time Ireland sent a diplomatic mission anywhere else controversial out of curiosity.


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    #20
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    1) I dont have an agenda.

    Sure you don't.
    Overheal wrote: »
    1a) How f@#king dare you. 1b)

    How dare I post on a webforum?
    Overheal wrote: »
    Thats incredibly Ad Hominem.

    No it isn't.
    Overheal wrote: »
    2) Totally nonsensical is it? Im just saying I dont hear the Ministers in a Huff trying to investigate Saudi Arabia, DPRK, China, etc. and why?

    Any examples of Mícheál Martin being refused access to these said countries, with citations of any feedback he gave on them?
    Overheal wrote: »
    If that doesnt make sense to you head back to vivapalestina.

    Sigh..
    Overheal wrote: »
    3) What f@#king Agenda?

    Your agenda to attack people who are willing to speak against Israel.


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    #21
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    4) As for visiting 2 countries in a short space of time: when was the last time Ireland sent a diplomatic mission anywhere else controversial out of curiosity.

    michealmartintd@eircom.net

    E-mail him and ask him. Let us know when you find out.


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    #22
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Any examples of Mícheál Martin being refused access to these said countries, with citations of any feedback he gave on them?
    Why dont you give me examples of him being allowed on similar humanitarian missions to these countries instead?
    Your agenda to attack people who are willing to speak against Israel.
    The only "Agenda" I have remotely to that baseless accusation is to generate a balanced discussion. You cant have a balanced discussion if everyone and their granny is on an Israeli Bashfest. All im met with is people like you who cant tolerate trying to see the multifacets of the issue. And thats what it is, a Multi-Faceted issue. You and many others are treated this as the big unfathomably evil monster Israel and its bum buddy the United States of Doom.


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    #23
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Sure you don't.

    Don't accuse others of having an agenda please. All it does is goad the other person.


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    #24
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Palestinians live in unfathomable conditions.
    Well that is the Topic isnt it, if you wish to elaborate.


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    #25
    Lab_Mouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Lab_Mouse


    Overheal in fairness the majority of times that israel is in the news here is over palestine and theyre treatment of palestinians>The blind dog on the street can tell the civilians are getting rightly screwed over.So alot of the time the israeli bashing is justified.

    The OP was about our foreign minister along with otheres not getting into gaza to see first hand how the civilians are getting on.

    Your right too about Saudi.china etc,butr start up a seperate thread if your that bothered about it otherwise id suggest the ranting and raving forum if you Really wanna get it off your chest:D


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    #26
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    Why dont you give me examples of him being allowed on similar humanitarian missions to these countries instead?

    You made the accusation, not me. I'm not doing your homework for you because you can't actually find anything to backup your argument. That's how this works. If Person A makes an accusation, the onus is not on Person B to prove it.

    So I repeat - Could you provide evidence that backs up your idea of Mícheál Martin not visiting other countries on similar missions, and evidence of his comments on these said missions?
    Overheal wrote: »
    You cant have a balanced discussion if everyone and their granny is on an Israeli Bashfest.

    Firstly, it's not an Israeli "bashfest". It's not as if we want Israel to keep doing bad things, so that we have something to moan about.
    Overheal wrote: »
    All im met with is people like you who cant tolerate trying to see the multifacets of the issue.

    The issue is that an elected official was denied access to Palestine. You haven't actually discussed the topic at hand. You didn't actually comment on whether you felt it was appropiate or inappropiate for Israel to do so. Your very first comment intentionally took the thread off topic. You didn't even attempt to explain what your comment meant. All you said was
    Politely tell the minister to visit Saudi Arabia instead.
    Overheal wrote: »
    And thats what it is, a Multi-Faceted issue.

    Is it? I thought it was an issue about Israel denying access to an elected official. Silly me.
    Overheal wrote: »
    You and many others are treated this as the big unfathomably evil monster Israel and its bum buddy the United States of Doom.

    Huh?


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    #27
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    nesf wrote: »
    Don't accuse others of having an agenda please. All it does is goad the other person.

    No problem.


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    #28
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Overheal wrote: »
    Why dont you give me examples of him being allowed on similar humanitarian missions to these countries instead?
    The only "Agenda" I have remotely to that baseless accusation is to generate a balanced discussion. You cant have a balanced discussion if everyone and their granny is on an Israeli Bashfest. All im met with is people like you who cant tolerate trying to see the multifacets of the issue. And thats what it is, a Multi-Faceted issue. You and many others are treated this as the big unfathomably evil monster Israel and its bum buddy the United States of Doom.

    The reason Europeans are interested in what's happening in Israel/Palestine is that Israel touts itself a democracy based on Western values. They want associate membership of the EU. They want "special agreements" with the EU for lower tax rates than other countries. Their sports teams play in European leagues, eg the Europa League. Hell, they're even in the Eurovision song contest.

    We have a right to criticise a country who goes against the democratic values that we hold dear. We have a right to criticise a country who blatantly disregards International law and Human Rights.

    If Israel or her followers don't like it, stick to dealing with their neighbours in the Middle East where they chose to settle.

    Israel is fast becoming a theocracy, run by fanatical, extremist settlers who had never set foot in the country before but who believe they can steal land and property from a people who have lived there for umpteen generations, with the full blessing of their "democratic" government and protected by the biased and racist IDF.

    All the whining in the world is not going to silence people from speaking out about what Israel has become, especially since the mass slaughter in Gaza.

    Get used to it because their voices are growing louder.


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    #29
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    fair enough, but alright. I do actually want to try to have a clean discussion on it starting with facts before feelings. I've started here and am branching my way out trying to find a succint list of potential HR abuses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Gaza_Strip_aid

    and of course

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

    I suppose my first question is how can Israel refuse access to Gaza if Gaza is puposedly controlled by Hamas, a Palestinian Terrorist/Political group?
    I thought it was an issue about Israel denying access to an elected official.
    And of course by Extension its a discussion about the Region. Silly Me.


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    #30
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    I suppose my first question is how can Israel refuse access to Gaza if Gaza is puposedly controlled by Hamas, a Palestinian Terrorist/Political group?

    Firstly, Hamas are the elected Government of Palestine. The Israeli Government could be equally classified as terrorists.

    Secondly - Israel can refuse access because Israel have Gaza under blockade, and most of the international transport is based out of Israel. The Israeli Navy block the coast with warships. In summary, the blockade itself is a crime against humanity.


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    #31
    Gone West
    Registered Users Posts: 6,374 ✭✭✭Gone West


    Overheal wrote: »
    I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.
    Your being ignored (not just here but most other threads too) because your comment was irrelevant.

    Its quite obvious why the Minister was not allowed, same reasons for the media black/grey-out. As stated above, Gaza is one giant concentration camp.


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