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Israel Refuses Minister Martin access to visit Gaza.
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Blockade: Grand (not Grand I approve, Grand Gotcha)Your being ignored (not just here but most other threads too) because your comment was irrelevant.
Its quite obvious why the Minister was not allowed, same reasons for the media black/grey-out. As stated above, Gaza is one giant concentration camp.
Auscwhitz: What?0 -
Your being ignored (not just here but most other threads too) because your comment was irrelevant.
Its quite obvious why the Minister was not allowed, same reasons for the media black/grey-out. As stated above, Gaza is one giant concentration camp.
I agree with your synopsis. With the siege and blockade of Gaza now in it's third year conditions are getting steadily worse. The World health Organisation say that over 60% of Gazan children are suffering from vitamin deficency illnesses, rickets etc. Basic foods stuffs are still not being allowed into Gaza. Truck loads of medicines, donated from abroad, have perished and gone out of date because they have been sitting at the border for months.
Families are spending another winter living under tarpaulins, their home and belongings having been destroyed by IAF bombers and bulldozers. Building materials are not allowed in to Gaza by Israel.
Over 400 people, suffering from cancers, leukemia etc have died in the last year because Israel wouldn't allow them out of Gaza to get treatment. 16 Women and their babies have died in childbirth at the border crossings because they were denied permits to get medical aid. Hospitals were bombed in January and haven't been repaired yet.
This is what Israel doesn't want the world to see and why Michael Martin, Human Rights groups and various other groups are not allowed access to Gaza.
And the world sits by and does nothing0 -
Well from what I've read the world would argue its doing a lot. Or its trying to.And the world sits by and does nothing0 -
I agree with your synopsis. With the siege and blockade of Gaza now in it's third year conditions are getting steadily worse. The World health Organisation say that over 60% of Gazan children are suffering from vitamin deficency illnesses, rickets etc. Basic foods stuffs are still not being allowed into Gaza. Truck loads of medicines, donated from abroad, have perished and gone out of date because they have been sitting at the border for months.
Families are spending another winter living under tarpaulins, their home and belongings having been destroyed by IAF bombers and bulldozers. Building materials are not allowed in to Gaza by Israel.
Over 400 people, suffering from cancers, leukemia etc have died in the last year because Israel wouldn't allow them out of Gaza to get treatment. 16 Women and their babies have died in childbirth at the border crossings because they were denied permits to get medical aid. Hospitals were bombed in January and haven't been repaired yet.
This is what Israel doesn't want the world to see and why Michael Martin, Human Rights groups and various other groups are not allowed access to Gaza.
And the world sits by and does nothing
Great post.0 -
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More than 100 states recognize the State of Palestine[25], and 17 more grant some form of diplomatic status to a Palestinian delegation, falling short of full diplomatic recognition.Firstly, Hamas are the elected Government of Palestine. The Israeli Government could be equally classified as terrorists.
Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories. The governments of Canada,[5] the European Union,[6][7][8] Israel,[9] and the United States[10] classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.
From what I've read this blockade is a direct reaction to the Election of Hamas, and the Political and Violent civil fighting between Hamas and the Then-majority leader Fatah: As a direct result of that unrest and internal violence. And Egypt too has closed its border for similar reasons. Its also why the US has been merrily underway with erecting a not-so unprecedented 18ft wall along the entire border of Mexico. Foolishly. But you can see why they might want to do it.
Why not just reinstate Fatah? When is the next Palestinian Election being held?0 -
Well from what I've read the world would argue its doing a lot. Or its trying to.
The only people trying to do something about it are the UNRWA, who are thwarted at every turn by Israel.
Judge Goldstone, a South African Jew, who wrote a report for the UN about war crimes committed by both Hamas and Israel in Gaza in January. For his trouble he was called "anti-Semitic", a "self hating Jew" and has had death threats from Israelis.
The various small groups who support the Palestinian struggle against an unjust and cruel occupation like VivaPalestina, who have tried to break the seige to get the world's attention. Bet'selem, the Israeli Human Rights group who have given Palestinians video cameras to have video evidence of the daily abuses and intimidation Palestinians are subjected to in Israel and Palestine. Many of these videos are on YouTube. They also work with Palestinians during the olive harvest to try and stop the armed settlers from destroying the olive groves, for many their only source of income.
As to the World's governments, well they sit by and do very little except pay lip service. Many in the US are not even aware of the siege of Gaza because American media is controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch, a Zionist sympathiser.0 -
The governments of Canada,[5] the European Union,[6][7][8] Israel,[9] and the United States[10] classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.
America doesn't define who is and who isn't a terrorist. America don't have the moral fibre to make such a claim when it's committed it's own acts of terrorism, and breached nearly every possible human rights violation in the world. Hamas are the product of their environment. They have every right to resist by politics or by war the illegal occupation of their land. Every country has the right to defend from occupation.From what I've read this blockade is a direct reaction to the Election of Hamas, and the Political and Violent civil fighting between Hamas and the Then-majority leader Fatah: As a direct result of that unrest and internal violence. And Egypt too has closed its border for similar reasons. Its also why the US has been merrily underway with erecting a not-so unprecedented 18ft wall along the entire border of Mexico. Foolishly. But you can see why they might want to do it.
Stop educating yourself with wikipedia. Seriously. If the blockade is due to Hamas - then why were aid convoys blocked?Why not just reinstate Fatah? When is the next Palestinian Election being held?
Because Hamas are the elected officials. The Palestinian people chose them to represent them.0 -
Uhm, What about Canada, the European Union of which you're a part of, which also regard Hamas as a Terrorist Organisation?America doesn't define who is and who isn't a terrorist. America don't have the moral fibre to make such a claim when it's committed it's own acts of terrorism, and breached nearly every possible human rights violation in the world. Hamas are the product of their environment. They have every right to resist by politics or by war the illegal occupation of their land. Every country has the right to defend from occupation.
Might as well stop telling someone to use the Internet or Open books or read a Broadsheet. I could as cheaply tell you to stop edutaining yourself with vivapalestinia and youtube but that would be quite farcical. I dont wish to deny that conditions are poor in the strip.Stop educating yourself with wikipedia. Seriously. If the blockade is due to Hamas - then why were aid convoys blocked?
Are you disagreeing with the source of information? Can you refute the source of information?
Whom also drove out Fatah through violence after the elections.Because Hamas are the elected officials. The Palestinian people chose them to represent them.
And if Im reading correctly, the borders have been opened and closed intermittently at different times for varying reasons to let varying goods and items pass through. One choice passage I found stated Israel wanted to keep its border open to Israelis stranded in the Gaza strip, but had to abandon the plan due to a Hamas statement that they would gun down any such Refugees that tried to cross the border.In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43.[14] After Hamas's election victory, violent and non-violent conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah.[15][16] Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and replaced by rival Fatah members and independents. Hamas retained control of Gaza.[17][18] On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia.[19] Israel then immediately imposed an economic blockade on Gaza, and Hamas launched Qassam attacks on areas of Israel near its border with Gaza.[20]0 -
Refusing the right to travel to Gaza isnt ground for expelling the Israeli ambassador, thats a pretty serious thing to do.
Im not pro Israel by any stretch, but its all well and good for us to apply our European ideals to them, even though we are at peace, and they are surrounded by conflict, and if we were in the same situation we would be demanding the exact same action against our aggressors. I can see why they refused him too, there probably tired of foreign politicians coming and one upping them.0 -
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You know the more I think about it, what guarantee would there be that Hamas wouldnt have attempted to take the Minister hostage? As I have pointed out, the EU has already labeled them Terrorists.Refusing the right to travel to Gaza isnt ground for expelling the Israeli ambassador, thats a pretty serious thing to do.
Im not pro Israel by any stretch, but its all well and good for us to apply our European ideals to them, even though we are at peace, and they are surrounded by conflict, and if we were in the same situation we would be demanding the exact same action against our aggressors. I can see why they refused him too, there probably tired of foreign politicians coming and one upping them.
Israel's position is surely dubious but regarding the man's safety, they may have had a point.
Expelling the ambassador might feel right but realistically keeping as much communication as possible seems much more ideal.0 -
You know the more I think about it, what guarantee would there be that Hamas wouldnt have attempted to kidnap the Minister? As I have pointed out, the EU has already labeled them Terrorists.
Israel's position is surely dubious but regarding the man's safety, they may have had a point.
Expelling the ambassador might feel right but realistically keeping as much communication as possible seems much more ideal.
What would they have to gain from kidnapping him?
Seriously?0 -
Media Attention? After all even Rupert flipping Murdoch couldnt ignore covering a story like that. All the more to call attention back to the Gaza Strip issue. It would have also created a scenario which would have pressured Israel into allowing more aid and fuel through the border in order to 'trade' for the foreign diplomat. If as is being suggested Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death essentially, whats to say what depth they wouldnt stoop to if given an opportunity?What would they have to gain from kidnapping him?
Seriously?
Now im not a Terrorist or a Military Strategist, but those are just two options that spring to mind.0 -
Media Attention? After all even Rupert flipping Murdoch couldnt ignore covering a story like that. All the more to call attention back to the Gaza Strip issue. It would have also created a scenario which would have pressured Israel into allowing more aid and fuel through the border in order to 'trade' for the foreign diplomat. If as is being suggested Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death essentially, whats to say what depth they wouldnt stoop to if given an opportunity?
Now im not a Terrorist or a Military Strategist, but those are just two options that spring to mind.
Its not the kind of attention they want, they have a good amount of support in the EU because of Israels own heavy handed actions, and because there the underdog, kidnapping an EU politician would in no way help that cause.
Now an RPG landing through the roof of his car by accident is something thats quite possible.0 -
Media Attention? After all even Rupert flipping Murdoch couldnt ignore covering a story like that. All the more to call attention back to the Gaza Strip issue. It would have also created a scenario which would have pressured Israel into allowing more aid and fuel through the border in order to 'trade' for the foreign diplomat. If as is being suggested Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death essentially, whats to say what depth they wouldnt stoop to if given an opportunity?
Now im not a Terrorist or a Military Strategist, but those are just two options that spring to mind.
That isn't the kind of attention you want for a cause if your trying to play the victim. How many ministers have they kidnapped in the past?
Whats the track record? Any reason to think they would want to kidnap him because I can't see any benefit to it TBH when he is going there most likely to bring attention and sympathy to their cause if they are being mistreated.
It would just make it obvious they aren't being mistreated if they have to kidnap Ministers that go to see conditions to attract attention.0 -
Because Hamas are the elected officials. The Palestinian people chose them to represent them.
Perhaps the Palestinian people should be more careful who they elect in the future.
While its true that Fatah were and still are very corrupt, electing a party/militia that are bent on war with your nearest neighbour (the regional superpower) is a bad idea. It gets large numbers of people killed.
Fischer.0 -
Perhaps the Palestinian people should be more careful who they elect in the future.
While its true that Fatah were and still are very corrupt, electing a party/militia that are bent on war with your nearest neighbour (the regional superpower) is a bad idea. It gets large numbers of people killed.
Fischer.
Israel and the US armed and supported Hamas against the PLO and Arafat. When it suits them Hamas are terrorists.
If Israel hadn't completely undermined Abbas there would have been a good chance that Hamas wouldn't have won the election. The Palestinians felt that they had no one to look out for their interests.They had nothing to lose as settlements were being built all over stolen land that was earmarked for the Palestinian State. The daily ill treatment and humiliations meted out to them was bound to have an effect after so many years.
As to Fatah being corrupt, yes they are, just like their neighbours. How many Israeli ministers and Prime Ministers are being investigated for corruption and illegal activities ? The Moldovan bouncer/ Israeli foreign minister is being investigated for some fairly substantial dodgy financial dealings. Former Prime Minister Olmert has been to court several times and is not finished yet. Another senior minister has been accused and charged with rape and sexual harrassment by several women in his office. Those are only a few I can think of atm.0 -
That isn't the kind of attention you want for a cause if your trying to play the victim. How many ministers have they kidnapped in the past?
Whats the track record? Any reason to think they would want to kidnap him because I can't see any benefit to it TBH when he is going there most likely to bring attention and sympathy to their cause if they are being mistreated.
It would just make it obvious they aren't being mistreated if they have to kidnap Ministers that go to see conditions to attract attention.
Muslim extremists will kidnap any westerner they can while hamas at the moment are quite contempt to just kill Jews ( Note not just Israelis but Jews as in thier Charter try reading it sometime )
Kidnapping or killing an Irish minister will heighten thier profile and of course there will be the guillible idiots in Ireland who will think Israel done it. also Irish councillers etc have a history of visiting some of the most evil people ever to set foot in the middle east when they go to gaza on "fact finding" missions.
on another side note do you think its fair for the irish taxpayer whos already suffering to be charged for a useless mission to gaza in all honosty if he did go there and fell foul to pallywood what could a moronic finna fail minister whos squandered millions of euro do??
soap box in the dail anyone??0 -
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Secondly - Israel can refuse access because Israel have Gaza under blockade, and most of the international transport is based out of Israel. The Israeli Navy block the coast with warships. In summary, the blockade itself is a crime against humanity.
I note your use of the word 'most'. In that, you are acknowledging the fact that there is more than just one country blockading Gaza. If the entire population of West Berlin (Four times the population of Gaza), could be supported to Western standards of living by one road and two railroads for three decades, it seems to me that there is no reason why Israel can be held solely responsible for the conditions in Gaza right now.
If the Minister is so intent on getting into Gaza, he should also try going via Cairo. If he doesn't try, what does that tell us?
NTM0 -
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Uhm, What about Canada, the European Union of which you're a part of, which also regard Hamas as a Terrorist Organisation?
Like I said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. They are under illegal occupation, have limited resources and have every right to fight against illegal occupation. Terrorism is only a flash-word used for those when it suits them. We were considered terrorists in 1916 when we fought British occupation. I don't personally agree with Hamas tactics, but then again - I'm not a Palestinian who's land has been occupied, house has been bulldozed down, or who's family have been murdered at the hands of the IDF. Maybe then, I might think differently and so might you.Might as well stop telling someone to use the Internet or Open books or read a Broadsheet. I could as cheaply tell you to stop edutaining yourself with vivapalestinia and youtube but that would be quite farcical. I dont wish to deny that conditions are poor in the strip.
I educate myself based on written account, and by speaking to Palestinians directly. I don't pretend to know everything, and I certainly don't quickly glance over wikipedia and pretend to be in the know about everything.Are you disagreeing with the source of information? Can you refute the source of information?
I wasn't disagreeing with your reason, I was pointing out that if that was the case - then why did they block aid cargo? I see you have yet to answer.Whom also drove out Fatah through violence after the elections.
Elections that Hamas won. You seem to be forgetting this. You asked why Fatah could not just be reinstated, forgetting that this would be undemocratic and would cause more problems than it would solve.And if Im reading correctly, the borders have been opened and closed intermittently at different times for varying reasons to let varying goods and items pass through. One choice passage I found stated Israel wanted to keep its border open to Israelis stranded in the Gaza strip, but had to abandon the plan due to a Hamas statement that they would gun down any such Refugees that tried to cross the border.
Where did Hamas state that they would gun down refugees? I'm sure you have a source for this, if you could link me please. Thanks.0 -
You know the more I think about it, what guarantee would there be that Hamas wouldnt have attempted to take the Minister hostage? As I have pointed out, the EU has already labeled them Terrorists.
Israel's position is surely dubious but regarding the man's safety, they may have had a point.
Expelling the ambassador might feel right but realistically keeping as much communication as possible seems much more ideal.
That's complete and utter nonsense. Hamas and the Palestinian people have a great amount of respect for the Irish people. They would never harm one of our ministers, especially one who's trying to establish an understanding of the humanitarian crisis. Lots of ministers have travelled before and were welcomed by Hamas. Show me one instance where an Irish minister was ever harmed by Hamas.0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »I note your use of the word 'most'. In that, you are acknowledging the fact that there is more than just one country blockading Gaza. If the entire population of West Berlin (Four times the population of Gaza), could be supported to Western standards of living by one road and two railroads for three decades, it seems to me that there is no reason why Israel can be held solely responsible for the conditions in Gaza right now.
If the Minister is so intent on getting into Gaza, he should also try going via Cairo. If he doesn't try, what does that tell us?
NTM
I am not sure if he attempted it. I am not Mícheál Martin. michealmartintd@eircom.net - Ask him yourself and find out if you're interested in knowning.
It doesn't change the fact that Israel rejected his request for entry, does it?0 -
Kidnapping or killing an Irish minister will heighten thier profile and of course there will be the guillible idiots in Ireland who will think Israel done it.
No, it wouldn't heighten their profile because there goal isn't to kill evil westerners. There goal is to rid illegal Israeli occupation. Provide evidence for where Hamas has harmed an Irish minister.0 -
provide evidence where an Irish minister went to Gaza who gave a s**t0
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Given that this is the same week in which North Korea revalued its currency and banned cash transactions for a week, seemingly in an attempt to crush the free market, and that we havent heard a peep on the Politics board about it, Im forced to agree with Overheal's dissertation.
People seem to love bashing Israel at every turn, and yet this kind of thing in North Korea is left un-critiqued. When you consider the political dispositions of those who effectively make a career out of bashing Israel, its not hard to see why the thought of criticizing any curtailment of the free market wouldn't appeal to them.0 -
I didn't hear about the refusal to grant Michael Martin permission to go to Gaza until I read it here. This is an Irish-based board so I guess it's not unusual that 'our' minister would be a topic of conversation on here. Is it someone having a pop at Israel, probably so, but how many other countries/places has our minister been refused travel to?Eliot Rosewater wrote: »Given that this is the same week in which North Korea revalued its currency and banned cash transactions for a week, seemingly in an attempt to crush the free market, and that we havent heard a peep on the Politics board about it, Im forced to agree with Overheal's dissertation.
People seem to love bashing Israel at every turn, and yet this kind of thing in North Korea is left un-critiqued. When you consider the political dispositions of those who effectively make a career out of bashing Israel, its not hard to see why the thought of criticizing any curtailment of the free market wouldn't appeal to them.
I didn't hear anything about N Korea until you mentioned it, in reality very little news is reported on N Korea, very little news comes out of N Korea. It is a Stalinist-dictatorship so I'm in no way surprised that they're trying to crush the free market, I surprised they even had one tbh.0 -
Eliot Rosewater wrote: »Given that this is the same week in which North Korea revalued its currency and banned cash transactions for a week, seemingly in an attempt to crush the free market, and that we havent heard a peep on the Politics board about it, Im forced to agree with Overheal's dissertation.
If you think North Korea is free of critique, you're wrong. I've criticised North Korea on many occasion, most recently with their nuclear tests.Eliot Rosewater wrote: »People seem to love bashing Israel at every turn
No they don't. It's this type of rhetoric that defenders of Israel use. "Ohhh, look at them off criticising Israel again..". You should probably read more Israel threads to see how far this rhetoric gets you.
If Israel is consistently being criticised, it is because Israel is consistently doing something to be worthy of criticism. And you trying to attack the character of people who actually care enough to offer criticism won't change that.0 -
Maybe im just sick of hearing IsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsrael.
Then lobby your government to stop giving them unilateral support.and maybe its time you stopped obsessing about Israel .
I wasn't aware that I was.It goes back to the whole Negroponte doctrine.
A farce. The US at one stage used its veto to protect Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia, I'm sure it had a nice formula for justifying that at the time too.when was the last time Ireland sent a diplomatic mission anywhere else controversial out of curiosity. .
Sudan, if I recall correctly.
As part of the UN the state has been involved in a number of areas across the world.Whom also drove out Fatah through violence after the elections..
...which may have had something to do with 500 plus Fatah fighters returning from Egypt, after being trained and equipped in a (US funded) camp there...Not that it was exactly a secret....
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html#ixzz0YoijUmO8Abbas was also miffed at the public discussion in the U.S. of Bush Administration plans to secure $86 million from U.S. Congress to arm forces loyal to Abbas for a looming battle with Hamas.Shin Bet wrote:provide evidence where an Irish minister went to Gaza who gave a s**t
If you've nothing to say............0 -
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No they don't. It's this type of rhetoric that defenders of Israel use.
Why, and under what basis, did you just pigeon hole me? I didn't even comment on the actual event itself, rather the tendency for Israel-related issues to be over discussed, and yet you immediately throw me into the "Israel defender" hole. The attitude appears to be if your not with us your against us.
For what its worth I try not to take a side in the conflict, though Israel has been the misbehaving half ever since the Gaza war it seems. A war I attribute to both sides equally, by the way. But this kind of rationalism, where both sides do wrong, is rarely accepted and in fact gets you thrown into the "Israel defender" category, from looking on these threads. Once again, if your not with us your against us.
And if you think this thread was started as an Irish topical issue your being intentionally wrong, in my opinon. These threads are set up to get the anti-Israel engine roaring as per usual. They never disappoint.0
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