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Israel Refuses Minister Martin access to visit Gaza.

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    #62
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    A war I attribute to both sides equally, by the way.

    That's the difference. Israel is the country who is illegally occupying Palestinian land. So how exactly do you attribute the war to both sides equally?

    If Russia occupied Alaska tomorrow, and the US retaliated. Would you attribute the war equally to Russia and US, or would you feel that the US would be within their rights to defend their land?


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    #63
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Why, and under what basis, did you just pigeon hole me? I didn't even comment on the actual event itself, rather the tendency for Israel-related issues to be over discussed, and yet you immediately throw me into the "Israel defender" hole. The attitude appears to be if your not with us your against us.

    No, your comment of "People love to bash Israel at every turn" was an attack on the character of those who are willing to criticise Israel. You completely avoided the reality that Israel are criticised only because they do things that warrant criticism. People don't criticise Israel to give them something to do for the day. If you think that, you are severely misguided.


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    #64
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    dlofnep wrote: »
    If Russia occupied Alaska tomorrow, and the US retaliated. Would you attribute the war equally to Russia and US, or would you feel that the US would be within their rights to defend their land?

    If the Alaskans had been lobbing rockets into Russia, then I'd be inclined to spread the blame equally. If the Alaskans had been lobbing rockets indiscriminately, and sometimes specifically targeting children, then I would definitely spread the blame equally.

    But its not as if me saying this is going to achieve anything. If I wanted to discuss the Israel-Gaza conflict properly and rationally I wouldn't do so through a public thread such as this because it will be invariably hijacked by the anti-Israel groupings, who will (apparently) accuse anyone who does not criticize Israel wholly of being a "defender of Israel."
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, your comment of "People love to bash Israel at every turn" was an attack on the character of those who are willing to criticise Israel.

    Although that is a vast generalization, assume for a moment it true. You concede that I wasn't attacking the cause of Gaza freedom, rather the extreme supportes. Yet it was still insinuated I was a "defender of Israel." Why is this, when I never commented on the conflict itself?


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    #65
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    If the Alaskans had been lobbing rockets into Russia, then I'd be inclined to spread the blame equally. If the Alaskans had been lobbing rockets indiscriminately, and sometimes specifically targeting children, then I would definitely spread the blame equally.

    But its not as if me saying this is going to achieve anything. If I wanted to discuss the Israel-Gaza conflict properly and rationally I wouldn't do so through a public thread such as this because it will be invariably hijacked by the anti-Israel groupings, who will (apparently) accuse anyone who does not criticize Israel wholly of being a "defender of Israel."

    There is no anti-Israel grouping. You are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of.

    Do you accept that Israel consistently receives criticism because Israel consistently implements policies that are worthy of criticism?


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    #66
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Shin Bet wrote: »
    Muslim extremists will kidnap any westerner they can while hamas at the moment are quite contempt to just kill Jews ( Note not just Israelis but Jews as in thier Charter try reading it sometime )
    Kidnapping or killing an Irish minister will heighten thier profile


    How would it heighten their profile? It would just make them look like they don't have a legitimate cause if they go around kidnapping people trying to see do they have it as bad as everyone thinks they do.
    and of course there will be the guillible idiots in Ireland who will think Israel done it.

    :rolleyes: You have no faith in anybody to accurately interpret an event except yourself it seems.
    also Irish councillers etc have a history of visiting some of the most evil people ever to set foot in the middle east when they go to gaza on "fact finding" missions.
    Examples?
    on another side note do you think its fair for the irish taxpayer whos already suffering to be charged for a useless mission to gaza in all honosty if he did go there and fell foul to pallywood what could a moronic finna fail minister whos squandered millions of euro do??

    soap box in the dail anyone??

    There is no evidence that it would happen so acting like it would be a certainty is a stupid train of conversation at best.

    Anyway just because we have a deficit does not mean we should not get involved in International politics just because it costs money. We are a country in the world and must act like one or we aren't a country in the world anymore.


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    #67
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    dlofnep wrote: »
    There is no anti-Israel grouping. You are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of.

    I used the term grouping quite liberally. I meant the general group of those who are anti-Israel and apologies for insinuating some kind of organization.

    To be honest I probably am doing the same thing you are doing, but I feel I'm more justified. It was insinuated I was an "Israel defender" on the basis I disagreed with the constant discussing of Israel issues; it was insinuated you were "anti-Israel" on the basis that you insinuated I was an "Israeli defender" even though I didnt comment on the issue.

    Either way theres a hell of a lot of insinuating going on, and I think it should stop. :pac:
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Do you accept that Israel consistently receives criticism because Israel consistently implements policies that are worthy of criticism?

    Absolutely. Do you concede that it receives more criticism than more countries relative to the amount of criticism it deserves? For example if the Israelis had tried the stunt North Korea did towards Palestinians there would be a massive thread on it now. It seems that Israel isn't criticized so much for what it does but rather thats its Israel doing it.

    This may be because there is such a big "Israel-lobby" and that that has spawned a large "anti-Israel-lobby." I think the EU might have the ability to end the conflict, but don't have the balls. If they placed embargo's on Israeli goods etc. Although the EU is always looking at the economic side of things, and that would be bad for the economy.


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    #68
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    To be honest I probably am doing the same thing you are doing, but I feel I'm more justified.

    Why are you more justified?
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    It was insinuated I was an "Israel defender" on the basis I disagreed with the constant discussing of Israel issues;

    No I didn't. I likened your rhetoric to that of an Israel defender - where you attacked the character of those posting, instead of attacking their actual argument. I see it time and time again on other forums - especially American ones, where if you criticise Israel - you are classified as a nazi or a jew hater. They never attack the basis of your actual argument, but attack your supposed motive.

    I'm not for one minute suggesting that you are labelling us any of them - but you are attacking the motive of the posts, rather than actively discussing the issue at hand. It's an attack on the character of the people posting.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Either way theres a hell of a lot of insinuating going on, and I think it should stop. :pac:

    I'll agree to that.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Absolutely. Do you concede that it receives more criticism than more countries relative to the amount of criticism it deserves?

    I'm not sure that it does, when you look at the current conditions the Palestinian people live under, and the ongoing routine breaches of International law by Israel.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    For example if the Israelis had tried the stunt North Korea did towards Palestinians there would be a massive thread on it now. It seems that Israel isn't criticized so much for what it does but rather thats its Israel doing it.

    You see, this is the problem. There isn't a conspiracy against Israel. The motives for us consistently discussing Israel's wrong-doings is because Israel consistently does them. Believe me, I don't wake up every morning and search google news for what Israel have done wrong. But it's everywhere in the media and is one of the most well documented abuses of human rights in the world presently - that's why it's discussed.

    But I wholeheartedly agree with you on other issues that don't receive enough attention. The ongoing human rights crisis of North Korea needs addressing. I don't dispute this.. But we don't have any power to change what happens in North Korea without a full scale war that would cost the lives of 100,000's of people, but we do have the power to change Israel by way of economic sanctions, and the US growing some balls and stop defending everything that they do.


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    #69
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Like I said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. They are under illegal occupation, have limited resources and have every right to fight against illegal occupation. Terrorism is only a flash-word used for those when it suits them. We were considered terrorists in 1916 when we fought British occupation. I don't personally agree with Hamas tactics, but then again - I'm not a Palestinian who's land has been occupied, house has been bulldozed down, or who's family have been murdered at the hands of the IDF. Maybe then, I might think differently and so might you.
    They were terrorists long before this Occupation. Suddenly being elected into power didnt alter the fact. They did not suddenly become Heroes.

    And I don't want to drag Irish History into this a great deal but while I try not to follow it as much as I can, how often is Sinn Fein likened to a thinly veiled group of terrorists? Or as the branch prefers to be called, Republican Sinn Fein? and the Continuity IRA?

    One Mans Terrorist is Another man's Freedom Fighter. Indeed.
    I educate myself based on written account, and by speaking to Palestinians directly. I don't pretend to know everything, and I certainly don't quickly glance over wikipedia and pretend to be in the know about everything.
    Nor do I. So if you have points/counterpoints I encourage you to make them.
    I wasn't disagreeing with your reason, I was pointing out that if that was the case - then why did they block aid cargo? I see you have yet to answer.
    If you look to when the Egypt border was cut open by Palastinians and the some million civilians that gushed out across the border, you can begin to appreciate why operating aid lines is inherently dangerous. Here's a social experiment, go down to O'Connel street and announce to passer by's that you will give €10 to anyone that approaches you and see what happens.

    Now add Guns.

    Suddenly introducing hundreds and thousands of Palestinians and Israelis in close proximity to eachother in tight border crossings is a hazard whatever way you choose to look at it. And lifting the blockades altogether just opens Hamas back up to the potential of entering Israel to commence more suicide bombings.
    Elections that Hamas won. You seem to be forgetting this. You asked why Fatah could not just be reinstated, forgetting that this would be undemocratic and would cause more problems than it would solve.
    Grand. But when's the next election?
    Where did Hamas state that they would gun down refugees? I'm sure you have a source for this, if you could link me please. Thanks.
    I do,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_the_Gaza-Egypt_border#cite_note-Katz-12

    Beginning in June 2007, Israel limited its exports to Gaza to nine basic materials. Out of 9,000 commodities (including foodstuffs) that were entering Gaza before the 2006 elections, only 20 commodities were to be allowed in.[4] In July 2007, Israeli officials planned to open the border crossing at Rafah to allow stranded Palestinians to return to Gaza but were deterred by Hamas's threats to open fire on the refugees.[13]

    And actually I withdraw the statement given the source is the Jerusalem Post and more importantly, the article offers No Direct Quotes from Hamas or Israeli officials that might back it up.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    And [] trying to attack the character of people who actually care enough to offer criticism won't change that.
    Eh, coming from the guy who accuses me of having an Agenda, thats purely hypocritical of you.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    That's the difference. Israel is the country who is illegally occupying Palestinian land. So how exactly do you attribute the war to both sides equally?
    Correct me if Im wrong but Israel is not actually occupying Gaza.


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    #70
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Absolutely. Do you concede that it receives more criticism than more countries relative to the amount of criticism it deserves? For example if the Israelis had tried the stunt North Korea did towards Palestinians there would be a massive thread on it now. It seems that Israel isn't criticized so much for what it does but rather thats its Israel doing it.

    This may be because there is such a big "Israel-lobby" and that that has spawned a large "anti-Israel-lobby." I think the EU might have the ability to end the conflict, but don't have the balls. If they placed embargo's on Israeli goods etc. Although the EU is always looking at the economic side of things, and that would be bad for the economy.

    Absolutely agree that is the focus of media attention in this area but something has to be. You can fix the worlds problems and focus the world on one problem at a time.

    If you give equal attention to Israel and North Korea what will happen? No demand for the situation to change.

    Its the exact same with the expenses scandal. You make an example of one person in the hope to solve the problem and wake the others up. Doesn't always work but you usually at least end up solving one problem.

    Israel is the focus because America is too friendly with it.


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    #71
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    If you look to when the Egypt border was cut open by Palastinians and the some million civilians that gushed out across the border, you can begin to appreciate why operating aid lines is inherently dangerous. Here's a social experiment, go down to O'Connel street and announce to passer by's that you will give €10 to anyone that approaches you and see what happens.

    Now add Guns.

    I'm sorry, but I find your comparison to be awfully redundant. Firstly - the aid convoys were entering Gaza. It is well within the scheme of things to allow them entry, much like they allow UN members entry and so forth. Stopping aid from entering one of the most impoverished areas in the world, is downright wrong.
    Overheal wrote: »
    Grand. But when's the next election?

    What does it matter? We are comparing the last election, which was won by Hamas. You seem to be unable to comprehend that Hamas democratically won the right to Govern.
    Overheal wrote: »
    I do,

    And actually I withdraw the statement given the source is the Jerusalem Post and more importantly, the article offers No Direct Quotes from Hamas or Israeli officials that might back it up.

    I appreciate you withdrawing the statement. I was going to call you on the source, but I'm glad you've been impartial enough to realise that it wasn't exactly the fairest.
    Overheal wrote: »
    Eh, coming from the guy who accuses me of having an Agenda, thats purely hypocritical of you.

    Grand, I apologise for accusing you of having an agenda. For the sake of positive debate we can go forward from here and debate the issues, instead of attacking each other's character. I'm more than happy to accept my role in that/
    Overheal wrote: »
    Correct me if Im wrong but Israel is not actually occupying Gaza.

    They occupy it in the sense that they control what enters, and what leaves Gaza; controlling it through military action.

    Israel occupies areas within Palestine. Palestine goes beyond Gaza.


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    #72
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Yeah if things only did go in one way, but you still have to let convoys and trucks go back and forth. I wont pretend to know much about that. Just that I can imagine how something like that might go tits up if someone started shooting. And its not as though Israel hasnt been letting anything through, which at least proves that it can be done.


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    #73
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    Yeah if things only did go in one way, but you still have to let convoys and trucks go back and forth. I wont pretend to know much about that. Just that I can imagine how something like that might go tits up if someone started shooting. And its not as though Israel hasnt been letting anything through, which at least proves that it can be done.

    Which is my point - Why did they block legitimate aid convoys into Gaza, when all of it's occupants had little to no healthcare options, and were living in severe conditions.


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    #74
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You could always ask the Prime Minister's Office

    :)


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    #75
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

    Absolutely. Do you concede that it receives more criticism than more countries relative to the amount of criticism it deserves? For example if the Israelis had tried the stunt North Korea did towards Palestinians there would be a massive thread on it now. It seems that Israel isn't criticized so much for what it does but rather thats its Israel doing it..

    Theres very few people in the West under the impression that the North Korean state is a pleasant one. There are no superpowers pushing the idea of North Korea as being similar to a western European state that should be allowed the same respect as the rest. North korea is restricted, isolated and under sanctions.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    This may be because there is such a big "Israel-lobby" and that that has spawned a large "anti-Israel-lobby." I think the EU might have the ability to end the conflict, but don't have the balls. If they placed embargo's on Israeli goods etc. Although the EU is always looking at the economic side of things, and that would be bad for the economy.

    It would require UN sanction. There's SFA chance of that.
    Overheal wrote:
    They were terrorists long before this Occupation. Suddenly being elected into power didnt alter the fact. They did not suddenly become Heroes.

    Hamas was founded approximately 20 years after the occupation began.


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    #76
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I should clarify this Occupation to be this Blockade.


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    #77
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    They refused him access because they don't want him to see the horrors that the Palestinian people live with. It's nothing to do with his safety.



    Mícheál Martin is the minister for Foreign Affairs. The Palestinians live in unfathomable conditions. There are few things more pressing than the conditions that those poor people have to live under.

    I would respectfully suggest that some poor dude who lost his job and is at his wits end in Ireland would be more worthy of Minister Martin's talents.

    After all, he was paying his taxes to support political stability in Ireland.

    Let the elected representatives in Palestine support their own, or are they too busy trying to undermine Israel??


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    #78
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I would respectfully suggest that some poor dude who lost his job and is at his wits end in Ireland would be more worthy of Minister Martin's talents.

    I'm sorry, but you're not even making sense at this point. You had the boldness to question what our minister for Foreign Affairs was doing investigating a foreign concern.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Let the elected representatives in Palestine support their own, or are they too busy trying to undermine Israel??

    I'm not sure if you're aware of this - but Palestine requires external support, given that Israel is funded to the tune of 3 billion annually by the US for their military. It is a grave humanitarian crisis there, and their people are in need of dire support - food and healthcare but to name a few.

    Worse case scenario here - you lose your job. Worst case scenario there is you DIE because you don't have the most basic of requirements, or are used as human shields by Israeli soldiers.

    Get a grip, seriously. More pressing issues at home me arse.


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    #79
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »

    Let the elected representatives in Palestine support their own, or are they too busy trying to undermine Israel??

    Undermining an occupying power is something that is rather unfortunately nessecary when you're being colonised.


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    #80
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but you're not even making sense at this point. You had the boldness to question what our minister for Foreign Affairs was doing investigating a foreign concern.



    I'm not sure if you're aware of this - but Palestine requires external support, given that Israel is funded to the tune of 3 billion annually by the US for their military. It is a grave humanitarian crisis there, and their people are in need of dire support - food and healthcare but to name a few.

    Worse case scenario here - you lose your job. Worst case scenario there is you DIE because you don't have the most basic of requirements, or are used as human shields by Israeli soldiers.

    Get a grip, seriously. More pressing issues at home me arse.

    Last I heard the Irish Minister of Foreign Affairs should confine his attentions to IRISH matters of foreign affairs.

    Getting involved in petty disputes between dissidents and other sovereign States is not what I pay my taxes for.

    Do what you are paid to do Minister.


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    #81
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Last I heard the Irish Minister of Foreign Affairs should confine his attentions to IRISH matters of foreign affairs.
    .

    Arf, arf, arf.........Like what, disaster relief in Cork? An end to violence in Mulhuddart?


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    #82
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Don't know what you mean by that vacant post, but maybe he might be better employed by educating Romania, that it's citizens cannot carry guns around this country.


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    #83
    Gone West
    Registered Users Posts: 6,374 ✭✭✭Gone West


    Overheal wrote: »
    I wont pretend to know much about that.
    Please extend this statement to cover your understanding of the entire palestinian-israel conflict.
    In serious: wikipedia is not a good primary source to use for this topic.


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    #84
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Don't know what you mean by that vacant post, but maybe he might be better employed by educating Romania, that it's citizens cannot carry guns around this country.

    I'd suggest starting a thread, rather than attempting a hijack.


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    #85
    bonaparte2
    Registered Users Posts: 248 ✭✭bonaparte2


    I urge Israel to let michael martin visit gaza. Its granting him an exit visa to leave the place I'd object to. He may be the representative of this republic, he is also a monumentally inept minister whose greatest expertise is in blustering and avoiding answering questions in media interviews. Let him in and keep him


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    #86
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Getting involved in petty disputes between dissidents and other sovereign States is not what I pay my taxes for.

    Since when was the illegal occupation of land, the bulldozing of houses, the blocking of aid, and the murder of civilians a "petty dispute". If that's petty, I'd hate to grow up in your neighbourhood.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Do what you are paid to do Minister.

    He is doing what he is paid to do. He is examining foreign matters, as a minister for foreign affairs. You're demonstrating extreme ignorance about the role of a minister for foreign affairs.

    http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=369
    Political Division is responsible for international political issues and manages Ireland's participation in the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy.

    Moreover - I find it utterly disgusting that you are getting angry with the minister for wanting to examine a humanitarian crisis.


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    #87
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    I am glad he is not going. What a waste of tax payers money, if only a lot more countries would refuse.


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    #88
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    I am glad he is not going. What a waste of tax payers money, if only a lot more countries would refuse.

    How exactly is it a waste to examine an ongoing humanitarian crisis? It would see tax well spent. Unless of course, you couldn't care less about the suffering of anyone outside of Ireland.


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    #89
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    It is no waste if the right people are going, but Martin??? Hello what a waste of space.


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    #90
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    It is no waste if the right people are going, but Martin??? Hello what a waste of space.

    He is the minister of Foreign Affairs. He is the most apt person to go. Who do you want to go, the Minister for Education? Maybe the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs?

    Thought not. The minister of Foreign Affairs, and indeed the department of Foreign Affairs is the department that deals with international political issues.


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    #91
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    And what is a visit to Gaza by Martin, or any other Irish politician going to achieve? The same thing that Isreali Jews that are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause in thier own country cannot achieve. It would suit European Politicians better to enforce sanctions on Isreal and start applying some pressure on America.


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