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Israel Refuses Minister Martin access to visit Gaza.

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124

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    #92
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    And what is a visit to Gaza by Martin, or any other Irish politician going to achieve? .

    Firstly, it allows him to examine the situation first-hand for himself. That subsequently allows him to write a report an issue an official statement on the matter. Moreover, when discussing the said issue with other European colleagues, he can bring an eye witness account of the situation there - which is worth 100 opinion pieces.

    Each EU state should do it - and then when the topic is being tackled at EU level, they will have more information to make judgement with.

    Israel stated that they felt the Goldstone report was biased. Mícheál Martin was trying to have a look for himself to make an unbiased judgement.

    I'm not a fan of the current Government, or indeed Mícheál Martin himself - but he is a part of our current Government, and as the minister for foreign affairs - it his his duty to investigate foreign political issues.


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    #93
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    Eh, it's a bit late in the day to make a judgement, and one that wouldnt be worth the paper (or money it cost) it's written on.


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    #94
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    Eh, it's a bit late in the day to make a judgement, and one that wouldnt be worth the paper (or money it cost) it's written on.

    That is your opinion. I find any investigation that might bring light and the truth about what happened in Gaza to the EU a worthy endeavour.


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    #95
    timothybryce
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭timothybryce


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Like I said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. They are under illegal occupation, have limited resources and have every right to fight against illegal occupation. Terrorism is only a flash-word used for those when it suits them. We were considered terrorists in 1916 when we fought British occupation. I don't personally agree with Hamas tactics, but then again - I'm not a Palestinian who's land has been occupied, house has been bulldozed down, or who's family have been murdered at the hands of the IDF. Maybe then, I might think differently and so might you.

    The Palestinian leaders need to realize they have lost every military battle with Israel and terrorist attacks on Israel end up hurting the Palestinian people ten fold.

    Do you think these terrorist attacks are helping or hurting the Palestinian people?

    Should they change their strategy?


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    #96
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    timothybryce wrote: »
    The Palestinian leaders need to realize they have lost every military battle with Israel and terrorist attacks on Israel end up hurting the Palestinian people ten fold.

    Ireland lost pretty much every military battle we ever had with Britain. Israel continues to occupy land, and build further illegal settlements. Israel refuses to listen to political calls for them to halt - and thus, Hamas are within their rights to defend their country and people from an oppressive and aggressive military force.
    timothybryce wrote: »
    Do you think these terrorist attacks are helping or hurting the Palestinian people?

    I don't think that their current attacks on Israel will do them any good. But I understand their desire to attack Israel when it refuses to listen to the international calls for it to halt it's settlements and illegal occupation.
    timothybryce wrote: »
    Should they change their strategy?

    I think they should implement a peace process, and try build up support from the EU to try and make some sort of deal. It would save lives. But Hamas are not the only problem here - Israel puts the Palestinians in such a condition that it creates an environment that will ultimately lead to armed resistance. To deny this basic reality, is to deny the reality of the situation.


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    #97
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    The tactic will never change, neither will that of the Israeli government, so here we are! What now?


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    #98
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    The tactic will never change, neither will that of the Israeli government, so here we are! What now?

    Why don't you tell us what your suggestions would be to remedy the situation?


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    #99
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    I said it earlier:
    It would suit European Politicians better to enforce sanctions on Isreal and start applying some pressure on America.


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    #100
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sorry I missed that. Yes, I agree with you. But isn't it in the EU's favour to actively investigate the issue, rather than pontificating from the comfort of their chairs before making decisions?


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    #101
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    Eh, what about the Goldstone report?


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    #102
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    Eh, what about the Goldstone report?

    The Israelis have refused to accept it and refused to co-operate with it. EU ministers getting a first-hand view of the situation adds alot more credibility to support it's findings, would it not?


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    #103
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    I could not agree less. Do you really think that Israel gives a hoot what EU Ministers will say? The Goldstone report has already been recognised Europe-wide. What is the point in doing it again? Oh yes I know, just to show that they all care, when in fact they dont.


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    #104
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    I could not agree less. Do you really think that Israel gives a hoot what EU Ministers will say? The Goldstone report has already been recognised Europe-wide. What is the point in doing it again? Oh yes I know, just to show that they all care, when in fact they dont.

    They will give a hoot if economic sanctions are issued.


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    #105
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    So, based on the Goldstone report, let Europe impose sanctions on Isreal. No, spend a bit more money and time first? Get a report back that waters down the Goldstone report? Consign it to history like before?


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    #106
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    So, based on the Goldstone report, let Europe impose sanctions on Isreal. No, spend a bit more money and time first? Get a report back that waters down the Goldstone report? Consign it to history like before?

    My point is that Israel stated that the report was biased - So why not allow EU minister to inspect for themselves to clear up any apparent bias?


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    #107
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    So we go out and spend lots of tax payers money on a new report that Israel will just fob off as biased and we'll go off huffing "dammit we need another report".


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    #108
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    My point is that Israel stated that the report was biased - So why not allow EU minister to inspect for themselves to clear up any apparent bias?


    I totally agree with Israel, this is a regional matter and Minister Martin should not become another pawn in the propaganda machine.

    That's not what I pay my taxes for.


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    #109
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bonaparte2 wrote: »
    I urge (......) and keep him

    Those people have suffered enough.
    Timothybryce wrote:
    The Palestinian leaders need to realize they have lost every military battle with Israel and terrorist attacks on Israel end up hurting the Palestinian people ten fold.

    Attacks slow the pace of settlement building. Look at the pace they're expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem where Abbas has bent over.


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    #110
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    Regional issue? Who has the second biggest Nuclear (armed) arsenal in the world? Who has been caught spying on Ruaais, USA and i Europe. Who says that they will strike (with nuclear and chemical weapons) any country that attacks them. Who is lead by the most synical, zenophobic and backward governments in the world? Who is let do what they have done since 1947 without question or rebuke? Who has organisations watching every news and communication line in the world? Do I need to say more?


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    #111
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I totally agree with Israel, this is a regional matter and Minister Martin should not become another pawn in the propaganda machine.

    No, it's an international issue and he is the minister for foreign affairs. A position that you still don't seem to understand.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    That's not what I pay my taxes for.

    So you keep telling us. It doesn't make it so.


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    #112
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    OKay then, the minister cannot visit Gaza because Isreal will not allow it so there will be no report. What now?


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    #113
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djsomers wrote: »
    OKay then, the minister cannot visit Gaza because Isreal will not allow it so there will be no report. What now?

    Move it forward at EU level I'd imagine. Put pressure on the American Government to lessen their blind support for Israel.


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    #114
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    Slowly, slowly. How about sending a signal right back to Isreal that we won't take it any more. Then get other countries in Europe to follow our lead. What happoened to Socialist Ireland (in spirit)???


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    #115
    dan719
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    djsomers wrote: »
    Regional issue? Who has the second biggest Nuclear (armed) arsenal in the world? Who has been caught spying on Ruaais, USA and i Europe. Who says that they will strike (with nuclear and chemical weapons) any country that attacks them. Who is lead by the most synical, zenophobic and backward governments in the world? Who is let do what they have done since 1947 without question or rebuke? Who has organisations watching every news and communication line in the world? Do I need to say more?

    No, you need to learn to spell.


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    #116
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    I am learning Polish, you try writing proper English after that!


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    #117
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    djsomers wrote: »
    Regional issue? Who has the second biggest Nuclear (armed) arsenal in the world?

    The US. Russia has the most. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone....


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    #118
    djsomers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭djsomers


    True. I did get a bit carried away.


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    #119
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Don't know what you mean by that vacant post, but maybe he might be better employed by educating Romania, that it's citizens cannot carry guns around this country.
    If they're already here, then that's a matter for the Minister for Justice through An Garda Siochana. It's got nothing to do with the department of Foreign Affairs. They deal with foreign things. Israel and the Palestinian Territories are foreign things.


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    #120
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Sorry I missed that. Yes, I agree with you. But isn't it in the EU's favour to actively investigate the issue, rather than pontificating from the comfort of their chairs before making decisions?
    Well not to be too blunt, but a lack of proper/thorough investigation never stopped the United States from launching Enduring Freedom. Why should the EU be hesitant about imposing sanctions on Israel when its clearly made up its mind?

    Actually pare that down to: Why not just impose EU sanctions on Israel?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Move it forward at EU level I'd imagine. Put pressure on the American Government to lessen their blind support for Israel.
    Its not Blind, Israel is a key ally, and while the United States has always had continuing support for Israel it has also at many junctures urged Israel not to act aggressively against its neighbours, such as when Iraq launched strikes against it in the 90s. President Obama as well has already pledged support for Israel but this hasnt stopped him from also urging the Israelis to lift the embargoes/blockades and Palestine/Hamas has said themselves they are finally warming up to the United States to begin peace talks due to the change in leadership - apparently they really hated Bush, and for the life of me I can't imagine why.....
    el judìo wrote: »
    Please extend this statement to cover your understanding of the entire palestinian-israel conflict.
    In serious: wikipedia is not a good primary source to use for this topic.
    Perhaps you would care to refute anything I have said with logical counter-argument and these sources of information you would rather have me digest, instead of simply trying to insult my intelligence.


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    #121
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    Well not to be too blunt, but a lack of proper/thorough investigation never stopped the United States from launching Enduring Freedom. Why should the EU be hesitant about imposing sanctions on Israel when its clearly made up its mind?

    I'm not sure if it has made up it's mind. The majority of EU states abstained from voting on the Goldstone report. So they were either afraid of upsetting the US, or would have preferred Israel to have engaged with the report - so that they could not claim bias. Since Israel refused to take part, then why does it not make sense for the EU to investigate further?

    It's quite obvious to the average Joe that what happened in Gaza was a grosse abuse of basic human rights - But at a political level, it helps to be able to say "Well, I've been to Gaza and I've seen first-hand the destruction, and shattered infrastructure".
    Overheal wrote: »
    Its not Blind, Israel is a key ally, and while the United States has always had continuing support for Israel it has also at many junctures urged Israel not to act aggressively against its neighbours, such as when Iraq launched strikes against it in the 90s. President Obama as well has already pledged support for Israel but this hasnt stopped him from also urging the Israelis to lift the embargoes/blockades and Palestine/Hamas has said themselves they are finally warming up to the United States to begin peace talks due to the change in leadership - apparently they really hated Bush, and for the life of me I can't imagine why.....

    Ah, but it is blind. The US takes Israel's word over anyone else. How can the US scold Israel for it's illegal occupation with one hand, but write a $3 billion check with the other hand for military support? Come on. Let's call a spade a spade here. The US will pretend to scold Israel, but they haven't showed one ounce of backbone when it comes to actually doing anything functional about it.


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