Parents allowing their children take up seats on buses/trains etc

amdublin

Twice this week I've got on the train and there have been no seats left. And twice there have been mothers with children out of their buggies sitting on a seat beside them.

The second time I asked the mother to move her child so I could sit down. She did it but not without making a big fuss first.

What's up with this?

Nevyn

You are meant to remove the child from the bugger and fold it away and have a child on the seat or on your lap on public transport.

You ticket for traveling on a train does not guarantee you a seat check the terms and conditions.

amdublin

Thaedydal wrote: »

You ticket for traveling on a train does not guarantee you a seat check the terms and conditions.

I know! But some parents seem to think their non ticket holding child has a right to a seat over a ticket holding adult.

Even aside from the fact that the child is actually not entitled to the seat I was always brought up to "give my seat up for an adult". What sort of example are these parents setting for their child?

Nevyn

If a child is of an age where they still need a buggy then you expect them to stand for an adult to take a seat.

And in some cases children of that age will not still on a parent's lap for a long journey and forcing them to do so make life unpleasant for everyone in the carriage.

Gurgle

amdublin wrote: »

children out of their buggies ... I was always brought up to "give my seat up for an adult"

At an age when you were still being wheeled around in a buggy, you were taught to give up your seat for an adult?

What about seniors?
They've got free access to public transport, should they give up their seats to people who paid for the ticket?

amdublin

Oh sorry I misunderstood you! I see you have the child should be on a lap or on a seat. (I thought you only said lap)

According to the byelaws etc the child (if has no ticket) should be on the lap of a ticket holding adult thereby not taking up the seat if there is a ticket holding adult who requires same.

But some parents seem to think that if even if their child has no ticket they deserve a seat more than an adult who has paid for their ticket.

amdublin

Thaedydal wrote: »

If a child is of an age where they still need a buggy then you expect them to stand for an adult to take a seat.
.

Nope I expect them to sit on their parent's lap.

As per train's "condition of carriage" 14.1
https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

14.1 Except as may be specified in the publications and notices of and applicable
to Iarnród Éireann, children under five years of age may travel free of charge
when accompanied by an adult passenger holding a valid ticket for the journey
provided such children do not occupy seats that are required for fare paying

passengers.

If you want your child under five to have a seat you should buy them a ticket.

amdublin

Gurgle wrote: »

At an age when you were still being wheeled around in a buggy, you were taught to give up your seat for an adult?

What about seniors?
They've got free access to public transport, should they give up their seats to people who paid for the ticket?

Sorry I tried multi quote but could not.

To you first point: yes my mother sat me on her lap instead of taking up a seat that an adult could sit on.

To your second point: No. Because I would not expect a senior to sit on someone's lap and I certainly would not let a senior stand - what example is that for children?

Gurgle

amdublin wrote: »

To you first point: yes my mother sat me on her lap instead of taking up a seat that an adult could sit on.

To your second point: No. Because I would not expect a senior to sit on someone's lap and I certainly would not let a senior stand - what example is that for children?

Yeah, fair point.
And thinking about it, you're right.
I would certainly hold the child if there were people standing.

Nevyn

Not all parents with small children take the train and not all that do, do this.

amdublin

But some do

Two in one week! Just my luck.

metrovelvet

Maybe they dont know?

Are kids free till what age?

amdublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

Maybe they dont know?

Are kids free till what age?

Trains it is until age 5. Buses I believe it is possibly only until age 3, I could be wrong on that.

Nevertheless even if you didn't know, why would a parent let their child sit on a seat and leave an adult standinng instead of putting them on your lap (or if they were old enough telling them to stand)???

What kind of example is that for a child?

Don't you think children should be taught to respect elders (ie. offer them a seat)?

fergalr

I am not a parent; found this thread from the frontpage.

Unless I was elderly, weak, sick, or otherwise in some need of a seat beyond whats normal for me, I wouldn't ask a child of under 5 to give up their seat for me.

I mean, they are under five years old! As a young child they deserve to be protected and made comfortable before I do. If that means I have to stand, so be it. The problem is with the transport operator not having enough seats - it is not the fault of the young child.


Some 4 year old kids are quite big and heavy. I don't think that forcing a parent to put a big kid on their lap is reasonable - what if the parent is tired, or has had a hard day? Minding kids is tiring work.

I would be much more likely to give up my seat for a young child than I would be to demand that they give up their seat for me.

If you want your child under five to have a seat you should buy them a ticket.

This is ridiculous.
For example, when you asked the parents to move their child, did you know whether the child had a ticket or not?
Besides, whether a young child should be made pay for a ticket is a different issue than whether they should be forced to give up their seat. What if under 5 tickets were 10cent each? Would you then accept their right to a seat? Its mixing in two separate issues.

Basically, I think it makes sense to support people that are rearing the next generation. Minding kids is hard, and if they find it easier to have the child sit on the seat next to them, then thats fine.
And it makes sense to protect the young above those who are fully grown - in the same way it makes sense to protect the old.

What Irish Rail have written in their 'conditions of carriage' is irrelevant to what the right thing to do is - unless you have some special need, its very mean spirited to demand a child under 5 give up their seat, because they didn't buy a ticket, and you did.


Btw, you will get visited by three ghosts this Christmas.

amdublin

fergalr wrote: »

next generation

Yes the next generation.

Don't you think that it is good for society that the "next generation" are taught to respect their elders and how to be good citizens by offering an adult a seat on the train.

Why should I, after a long day at work and having bought my monthly train ticket have to stand beside a mother and her 1.5 year old child taking up two seats after having paid for only one.

Oh btw I asked had she bought him a ticket. She said no. That is the only reason she moved him, she said she wouldn't have otherwise. (Some example for her child in the future that!)

metrovelvet

amdublin wrote: »

Trains it is until age 5. Buses I believe it is possibly only until age 3, I could be wrong on that.

Nevertheless even if you didn't know, why would a parent let their child sit on a seat and leave an adult standinng instead of putting them on your lap (or if they were old enough telling them to stand)???

What kind of example is that for a child?

Don't you think children should be taught to respect elders (ie. offer them a seat)?

No I would not have a child stand, thats for sure. If there were no seats available and I hadnt paid for a seat for my son I would have him on my lap.

The reason for this, is that he is 2 and a half and on transport he would fall down alot on a bus or train.

But if i wanted a guaranteed seat for him I would pay for a ticket for him, like I do on airplanes, where he gets his own seat.

amdublin

fergalr wrote: »

What Irish Rail have written in their 'conditions of carriage' is irrelevant to what the right thing to do is - unless you have some special need, its very mean spirited to demand a child under 5 give up their seat, because they didn't buy a ticket, and you did.

They have the option of sitting on their parent's lap. I don't have that option.

metrovelvet

When I am in situations like that and I dont want him on my lap or cant have him on it for whatever reason like im carrying too much crap, I will give my son my seat.

sold

amdublin wrote: »

Twice this week I've got on the train and there have been no seats left. And twice there have been mothers with children out of their buggies sitting on a seat beside them.

The second time I asked the mother to move her child so I could sit down. She did it but not without making a big fuss first.

What's up with this?

WHAT A NERVE!! you try traveling with kids. Totally pathetic post. I would never ask a parent to move a child. What a selfish post.

metrovelvet

sold wrote: »

WHAT A NERVE!! you try traveling with kids. Totally pathetic post. I would never ask a parent to move a child. What a selfish post.

Neither would I but people who dont have kids dont know how hard it is to travel with kids.

amdublin

sold wrote: »

WHAT A NERVE!! you try traveling with kids. Totally pathetic post. I would never ask a parent to move a child. What a selfish post.

But why should the child have the seat???? I've paid for my ticket, they have not. They are not entitled to the seat.

Btw I've travelled on my own every day to work but when I do travel with the child he goes on my lap. Only fair!

And also I would feel guilty as a citizen if my child was in a seat while there were adults standing. I just don't think that it is a good society to live in where age is not respected. When my children are older and I have paid for tickets for them I will still expect them to stand and offer their seat to any adults standing.

angeldaisy

well, I have a four year old boy and we have often travelled by train. I would usually explain to him that if the train was busy he would have to sit on my knee and if that happens I sit him on my knee. I think that this is showing respect and teaching my son a good example.
However, I have often been given 'the stare' when he has been sitting opposite me looking out of the window if the train wasn't too busy. I think some people can think that children shouldn't be sat in a seat even if the train isn't busy. I'm sorry but in the case where there are other seats available I wouldn't ask my son to move or sit on my knee.

jaybird

What if I have 2 children with me, or in my case 3? Should I squeeze them all onto my knee, or should I make the 2 year old and 5 year old stand up? If it is feasible to do so I would try to give a seat to an adult standing, but its not always possible.

And very few able bodied adults on bus/trains ever gave up their seat to me when i was enormously pregnant, preferring instead to tut at me as I took up too much standing in their way.....

amdublin

angeldaisy wrote: »

well, I have a four year old boy and we have often travelled by train. I would usually explain to him that if the train was busy he would have to sit on my knee and if that happens I sit him on my knee. I think that this is showing respect and teaching my son a good example.
However, I have often been given 'the stare' when he has been sitting opposite me looking out of the window if the train wasn't too busy. I think some people can think that children shouldn't be sat in a seat even if the train isn't busy. I'm sorry but in the case where there are other seats available I wouldn't ask my son to move or sit on my knee.

Well this seems perfect imo. As you said your are teaching him a good example. I do this too. It is the perfect opportunity.

I don't know why people are giving The Stare in this situation. The scenarios in the last week that I was talking about have been where there are literally no seats left and the non ticket holding child was taking up a seat.

I just cannot understand why people think I am selfish for wanting a seat which I have paid for when the parent has the option of putting the child on their lap.

Why would a parent not just do this???? (And take the opportunity to teach their child something about their civic duty??)

amdublin

jaybird wrote: »

What if I have 2 children with me, or in my case 3? Should I squeeze them all onto my knee, or should I make the 2 year old and 5 year old stand up? If it is feasible to do so I would try to give a seat to an adult standing, but its not always possible.

And very few able bodied adults on bus/trains ever gave up their seat to me when i was enormously pregnant, preferring instead to tut at me as I took up too much standing in their way.....

Well I think a parent should do what is reasonable. In your example it doesn't sound reasonable for you all to squeeze together lol. Like I said, my scenario this week was only one child.

As for people not giving pregnant women a seat. That is beyond comprehension imo. Come on people. Civic responsibility and all that. Or how about just good old fashioned good manners!!!

Good manners never go out of season!

fergalr

amdublin wrote: »

Yes the next generation.

Don't you think that it is good for society that the "next generation" are taught to respect their elders and how to be good citizens by offering an adult a seat on the train.

No, I don't think this. This is more of an abstract philosophical point, but I actually don't believe people should particularly 'respect their elders'.
I think people should respect everyone equally, regardless of age, unless the person has done something to lose that respect. I don't think people are entitled to some sort of extra respect, or station, just because they are older (unless they are very old).

I have several issues with things that are often part of the 'respect your elders' attitude.

For a start, it seems to imply that older people are somehow more important than younger ones.

While we should definitely look after the elderly, I don't think that someone thats, say, 30, is worth more in some way than someone thats 15. Or that the 30 year old is entitled to the seat the 15 year old is on. The same with a 7 year old vs a 30 year old. Why should the 30 year old - fit and strong and fully developed, in the prime of their health, have to give up their seat to the 7 year old, who is young and growing and not as as strong?


I also don't like the idea that because people are older they should be 'respected' and questioned less. I think that attitude has caused a lot of trouble in this country.
I don't want to get into totally off topic territory here, but its worth considering that if this society had listened to and respected children a little bit more, and their elders a little bit less, a lot of the awful things that are currently coming out with regard to child abuse might not have happened quite as often.


I think telling someone that because they are a child, and of less rank or seniority in society, means they have to give up the seat is really just the lesson of 'might makes right'. I would rather teach them that the those in more need be looked after by those in less need, and that the young and very old should be particularly looked after.
We should be nice and kind to those who are younger than us, particularly when they are very young, and that by being kind to them then, hopefully later when they are older, they will want to be nicer to everyone else.

amdublin wrote: »

Why should I, after a long day at work and having bought my monthly train ticket have to stand beside a mother and her 1.5 year old child taking up two seats after having paid for only one.

In an ideal world, no one should have to stand.
This is not the fault of the people involved, but the transport company in question. (Which, as a voter and an adult, you are in more of a position to sort out than the child is, but thats another story).

I don't see that whether the child/parent paid for the seat is really relevant, unless you think that only people who pay for things should get them, regardless of the need. In which case you have to argue against childrens allowance, child-rate train tickets, social welfare, old age pensions, medical cards, and everything else thats subsided by the government, for the benefit of the weaker groups in society.

What is the issue, I think, is given that theres two people, and 1 seat, who gets the seat?

You argue that because you are older, you should get it.
I would argue that whoever needs it more should get it, and in the case of equal need, then whoever was there first.
*If* you are healthy and strong, then I think the 4 year old probably needs it more than you. I'd make allowances for them anyway, on the basis that they are just a young child.

If it doesn't affect the parent at all to take the child onto their lap, and if it makes a big difference to you to sit on the seat (you are really tired), then its reasonable to ask the parent to put the child on their lap.

But if the parent is tired, or the child is heavy, or more comfortable on the seat, its probably better for you to stand, I'd say.

If it was me, while I might *ask* - maybe - I certainly would not demand or insist. I've got to trust other peoples judgement to some extent, and not be an ass about it, and if the parent knows they are particularly tired, then I'll trust their judgement.

amdublin wrote: »

Oh btw I asked had she bought him a ticket. She said no. That is the only reason she moved him, she said she wouldn't have otherwise. (Some example for her child in the future that!)

Well - I think you are being more consistent here than I originally thought - fair enough. Its not what I'd think, though, but I guess we've just got different perspectives. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are saying, and taking too much out of a small situation.

amdublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

Neither would I but people who dont have kids dont know how hard it is to travel with kids.

How hard is it to put them on your lap and use the opportunity to teach them some manners about offering adults seats

Nevyn

I dont see how you are teaching a child of 4 civic duty by doing that.
There is no way I would have sat mine at age 4 on my lap on public transport, at 4 they were both in school, I would but them child tickets and they would have a seat because they needed one.

An able bodied adult is a lot better ot be able to stand safely on a moving bus/train and use the handles provided to so then a child.

If it came to it that there was an adult who needed a seat due to being pregnant, not so abled bodies ( due to what ever factor age or health reasons, not all disablities are visible ones ) then I would give up my seat if it was safe to do so and stand in close proximity to my children.

I do not need someone telling me that if i do not put my children on my lap I am neglecting to teach them manners, esp in the case of a toddler, as they will not retain such a lesson at that age.

amdublin

Thaedydal wrote: »

I do not need someone telling me that if i do not put my children on my lap I am neglecting to teach them manners, esp in the case of a toddler, as they will not retain such a lesson at that age.

Who said you were neglecting to teach them manners?

I said it was an opportunity.

metrovelvet

No offense, but if it came to it Id rather show respect to my own child by letting him have a seat that I paid for then having him sacrifice his seat so an abled body person jus because s/he is older than him.

do you give up your seat to your elders?

how old are you btw? And how old does someone have to be before you give up your seat?

DublinWriter

amdublin wrote: »

They have the option of sitting on their parent's lap. I don't have that option.

Well, meself, after a couple of beers...

...seriously, we're a very child-unfriendly country. This thread just re-enforces it.

Any other country in central Europe? Not a problem? Here? Big problem.