Parents allowing their children take up seats on buses/trains etc

nesf

amdublin wrote: »

Trains it is until age 5. Buses I believe it is possibly only until age 3, I could be wrong on that.

Nevertheless even if you didn't know, why would a parent let their child sit on a seat and leave an adult standinng instead of putting them on your lap (or if they were old enough telling them to stand)???

What kind of example is that for a child?

Don't you think children should be taught to respect elders (ie. offer them a seat)?

Hmm, what about a situation where the mother is heavily pregnant? I do see your point about other circumstances but surely you wouldn't expect a 7-8 month pregnant woman to put a 4 or 5 year old on her lap? Also, what about when a parent has a 2 year old and a 4 year old? She can't put both on her lap realistically.

Enii

Thaedydal wrote: »

An able bodied adult is a lot better ot be able to stand safely on a moving bus/train and use the handles provided to so then a child.

.

Just reading thru this thread. At no point does the OP say they expect the child to stand. They are questioning why a parent would not ask their child to sit on their lap so as to be able to offer a seat (and a comfortable journey home from a long day in work) to an adult.

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable - they are just indicating valid and practical ways for the majority of the travellers to get home in comfort.

I really notice how things have changed since I was a child (and it wasn't that long ago). I was always told to keep out of the way of adults, my mam would put me on her knee if someone wanted to sit down, I remember on school trips, we had to walk on the outside of the pavement (in a row, led by a teacher), so the adults could walk on the inside and we weren't inconveniencing them. Now, it seems to be the opposite way around. If I'm sitting on a train and a mother sits down next to me, I get glowered at if I don't offer my seat to the child. Children on school trips take up entire pavements, forcing everyone else onto the road. I'm not a miserable old grouch, I like children, but since when do they rule the world? I survived just fine as a child without being wrapped up in cotton wool and treated like a queen.

LizT

Next time, get there in time to get a seat!

And your point that they and not paying for a seat and therefore shouldn't have one does not stand up in my opinion.

There are lots of people who have social welfare passes, and therefore don't pay for a seat. Should they give up their seat just because you've paid for one?

amdublin

lizt wrote: »

Next time, get there in time to get a seat!

And your point that they and not paying for a seat and therefore shouldn't have one does not stand up in my opinion.

There are lots of people who have social welfare passes, and therefore don't pay for a seat. Should they give up their seat just because you've paid for one?

It is not about getting there on time. You could get on two/three stops into the journey and the seats could be gone.

As they have not paid for their seat it is actually a condition of carriage that they should not be taking a seat from a paying adult so my point stands even more:
https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reserv...nsOfTravel.pdf

14.1 Except as may be specified in the publications and notices of and applicable
to Iarnród Éireann, children under five years of age may travel free of charge
when accompanied by an adult passenger holding a valid ticket for the journey
provided such children do not occupy seats that are required for fare paying

passengers.

No a SW pass person should not be expected to give up their seat because (a) they do not have the option of sitting on their parents lap and (b) they are not being carried on the train for free with the condition of giving up their seat - unlike a child under 5 who is being carried under that explicit condition.

amdublin

[quote=[Deleted User];63368863]I like children, but since when do they rule the world? I survived just fine as a child without being wrapped up in cotton wool and treated like a queen.[/quote]

Hear hear.

Enii

DublinWriter wrote: »

...seriously, we're a very child-unfriendly country. This thread just re-enforces it.

Child unfriendly!!!! Because someone questions why a child can't sit on their mother's knee so as to give someone else a seat!!!!

C'mon do you honestly believe that is right for a 2 yr old child to be taking up a seat when they could easily be sat on the mothers lap so as to give comfort to another traveller? That is so wrong imo!

amdublin

DublinWriter wrote: »

...seriously, we're a very child-unfriendly country. This thread just re-enforces it.

Any other country in central Europe? Not a problem? Here? Big problem.

From what I have seen on the continent people generally adhere to the rules of the railways/bus company.

And from what I have seen in the continent, and contrary to what I am seeing on boards on this thread today, parents tend to not pander to their children and take the opportunity to demonstrate to them civic responsibility and how to be kind to elders/other people.

phasers

If someone stood up and offered me their seat I'd be offended tbh!

Firstly I should probably say I'm not a parent. I do agree that people should teach children to respect adults, but having a small child stand on a crowded bus or train makes absolutely no sense. They're much more likely to fall over than an able bodied adult and it's unsafe. And sitting on a parent's lap is only feasible for so long.

That being said, I think a child under 3 shouldn't be sitting in their own seat as a general rule (obviously this is subject to the individual child's size and stuff).

Enii

phasers wrote: »

I do agree that people should teach children to respect adults, but having a small child stand on a crowded bus or train makes absolutely no sense. They're much more likely to fall over than an able bodied adult and it's unsafe. And sitting on a parent's lap is only feasible for so long.

That being said, I think a child under 3 shouldn't be sitting in their own seat as a general rule (obviously this is subject to the individual child's size and stuff).

OP never said anything about expecting a child to stand in order for an adult to seat.

They just indicated that they felt that mom should take the child on to their lap in order to offer their seat to a fellow traveller (OP futher demonstrated how it is actually a condition of free travel for children).

chocgirl

I'm not a parent and I just saw this thread by chance but I'm really surprised by a lot of the posts. I would never expect a child of any age to either give up their seat or sit on their mother's lap for me. Of course if a pregnant woman or elderly person was looking for the seat this would be completely different.

I do think it is very wrong for mothers to block seats with buggies which I see a lot.

fergalr

Enii wrote: »

Just reading thru this thread. At no point does the OP say they expect the child to stand. They are questioning why a parent would not ask their child to sit on their lap so as to be able to offer a seat (and a comfortable journey home from a long day in work) to an adult.

Enii wrote: »

OP never said anything about expecting a child to stand in order for an adult to seat.

They just indicated that they felt that mom should take the child on to their lap in order to offer their seat to a fellow traveller (OP futher demonstrated how it is actually a condition of free travel for children).

What about in these three separate posts I've quoted below for you?
How did you miss all three of these reading through the thread?

I don't think a five year old (old enough to require a ticket, and too big for parents lap) should have to stand on a train so an adult can sit.

amdublin wrote: »

I know! But some parents seem to think their non ticket holding child has a right to a seat over a ticket holding adult.

Even aside from the fact that the child is actually not entitled to the seat I was always brought up to "give my seat up for an adult". What sort of example are these parents setting for their child?

amdublin wrote: »

Trains it is until age 5. Buses I believe it is possibly only until age 3, I could be wrong on that.

Nevertheless even if you didn't know, why would a parent let their child sit on a seat and leave an adult standinng instead of putting them on your lap (or if they were old enough telling them to stand)???

What kind of example is that for a child?

Don't you think children should be taught to respect elders (ie. offer them a seat)?

amdublin wrote: »

But why should the child have the seat???? I've paid for my ticket, they have not. They are not entitled to the seat.

Btw I've travelled on my own every day to work but when I do travel with the child he goes on my lap. Only fair!

And also I would feel guilty as a citizen if my child was in a seat while there were adults standing. I just don't think that it is a good society to live in where age is not respected. When my children are older and I have paid for tickets for them I will still expect them to stand and offer their seat to any adults standing.

Enii

chocgirl wrote: »

Of course if a pregnant woman or elderly person was looking for the seat this would be completely different.

I do think it is very wrong for mothers to block seats with buggies which I see a lot.

Having fainted on public transport due to heat and over crowding I will gladly take a seat when offered to me. I find it unreasonable when a mother leaves a child, that they could easily take on to their lap, on a seat and does not offer it to a fellow traveller (old, young, pregnant, whatever).

If also bugs me when people do this with sports bags - again it should be taken on the owners lap.

It all just common courtesy, I reckon - after all travelling on public transport is not the most pleasant thing to do so I think it is reasonable for all of is to attempt to make it better for all fellow travellers.

smelltheglove

amdublin wrote: »

. (Some example for her child in the future that!)

I think thats a great example for the child to be honest, dont give in easily to being bullied!

Enii

fergalr wrote: »

What about in these three separate posts I've quoted below for you?
How did you miss all three of these reading through the thread?

I don't think a five year old (old enough to require a ticket, and too big for parents lap) should have to stand on a train so an adult can sit.

I'm sorry but I can't see where the OP says they expect the child to stand. I think they are questioning why the mother can't take the child on to their lap.

amdublin

smelltheglove wrote: »

I think thats a great example for the child to be honest, dont give in easily to being bullied!

It is the parent who is doing the bullying. The child is not entitled to the seat whereas after paying for my monthly ticket I am.

The parent for some reason persists ignores the railway rules. What a bad example to set the child!

fergalr

Enii wrote: »

Having fainted on public transport due to heat and over crowding I will gladly take a seat when offered to me.

Its awful to hear you fainted, but lets be clear, the heat and overcrowding on public transport is not the fault of the children.

Further, if its bad for you as an adult, its probably worse for them as a child.

Enii wrote: »

I find it unreasonable when a mother leaves a child, that they could easily take on to their lap, on a seat and does not offer it to a fellow traveller (old, young, pregnant, whatever).

If its the case that the parent can easily take the child on their lap, then thats one thing.
Again, they may be tired after managing their child for the day, or they may have been carrying the child all day, or have to carry it later, or the child may be heavier than you think.
I would leave it up to the parent to decide this, and not be demanding anything.

Enii wrote: »

If also bugs me when people do this with sports bags - again it should be taken on the owners lap.

A sports bag? Yes, of course its annoying when people do this with sports bags.

But lets be clear that thats a totally different scenario - a child is not a piece of luggage - in case anyone thinks you are making a comparison there.

Enii wrote: »

It all just common courtesy, I reckon - after all travelling on public transport is not the most pleasant thing to do so I think it is reasonable for all of is to attempt to make it better for all fellow travellers.

Particularly the weakest and most vulnerable of our fellow travellers.

amdublin

Enii wrote: »

It all just common courtesy, I reckon - after all travelling on public transport is not the most pleasant thing to do so I think it is reasonable for all of is to attempt to make it better for all fellow travellers.

Something that some people have lost sight of methinks

amdublin

fergalr wrote: »

Particularly the weakest and most vulnerable of our fellow travellers.

Particularly the weakest and most vulnerable of our fellow travellers.....who have not paid for their seat and could be sat on the lap of their parent thus giving the seat to a person who has paid for it.

fergalr

Enii wrote: »

I'm sorry but I can't see where the OP says they expect the child to stand. I think they are questioning why the mother can't take the child on to their lap.

Where the OP says:

amdublin wrote: »

I will still expect them to stand and offer their seat to any adults standing

To me this indicates that the OP thinks they expect children to stand and offer their seat to any adults standing (even in the case where the children have a ticket)


I don't understand the logic behind that, especially if the kid is 5 years old.

As you yourself pointed out, public transport can be stuffy and crowded.
Thats a bad enough experience when you are a big tall adult, but much worse when you are trying to stand as a little 5 year old.

smelltheglove

To be honest if I was in the parents position i would consider yourself to be the bully. I wonder do you have children? Very few 1-2 year olds are happy to sit for a length of time on their parents lap and to be honest are these rules printed anywhere or displayed anywhere? In my opinion they aren't the best of rules, free transport for the young is there to help the parents, its part of the infrastructure of our country and honestly if I sat on a bus with my 3 year old and someone confronted me asking me to free up my childs seat for them to use I would tell them I would do say when instructed by the driver, I am sorry but no, I cannot see where you are coming from at all.

Do you obey every rule in soceity yourself? Can you honestly say you have never broken a rule in any institution?

amdublin

fergalr wrote: »

Where the OP says:


To me this indicates that the OP thinks they expect children to stand and offer their seat to any adults standing (even in the case where the children have a ticket)


I don't understand the logic behind that, especially if the kid is 5 years old.

As you yourself pointed out, public transport can be stuffy and crowded.
Thats a bad enough experience when you are a big tall adult, but much worse when you are trying to stand as a little 5 year old.

My second quote that you have quoted refers to my own child.

The scenario that I encountered twice this week was a child that should have been placed on the parents lap.

offdechain

no comment

mikemac

Enii wrote: »

If also bugs me when people do this with sports bags - again it should be taken on the owners lap.

If you see this and need a seat the person with the sports bag will move it!
I'm not saying you are too timid to ask, but if a person needs a seat and won't tell the person with the bag to shift it, they only have themselves to blame.

I realy doubt anyone would ever refuse to move a sportsbag for an elderly person or a pregnant lady.
All you have to do is ask. If they refuse ask if have a ticket for their sportsbag. It'll work always

smelltheglove wrote: »

and to be honest are these rules printed anywhere or displayed anywhere? In my opinion they aren't the best of rules, free transport for the young is there to help the parents, its part of the infrastructure of our country and honestly if I sat on a bus with my 3 year old and someone confronted me asking me to free up my childs seat for them to use I would tell them I would do say when instructed by the driver,

I'd never seen that rule before and I've learned something from this thread.
I can see the OP's frustration, a monthly ticket can cost well over 100 euro a month and then you lose your seat to someone without a ticket. But realy, minors should be able to get a seat over a healthy adult. I wonder if the OP challenges pensioners who also didn't pay for their tickets......

fergalr

amdublin wrote: »

Particularly the weakest and most vulnerable of our fellow travellers.....who have not paid for their seat and could be sat on the lap of their parent thus giving the seat to a person who has paid for it.

* We've already covered that having to pay for your seat is a red hering, as you don't expect other groups of people that don't pay for their seat, to stand.

* We've also established that buying a ticket (perhaps unfortunately) doesn't entitle you to a seat on the train - just to carriage. So you haven't paid for a seat either, if you want to be picky.

* Finally, the weakest and most vulnerable I am referring to are the young kids (possibly their parents) not the adults on their way home from work.


I agree that if the parent is fully able, with little to no effect on them, to put the child on their lap, then the parent should do so. However, given that parents are likely to be tired because they are travelling with children, or may find the child particularly heavy, or may have other conditions you don't know about (eg, pregnancy), its not reasonable to insist the parent take the child on their lap, just because the child doesn't have a ticket. Its one thing to request they do so - but another entirely to demand it.

Someone that would use the specifics of the letter of the 'rail carriage agreement' to force a child onto a parents lap, against the parents will, or equally, would force an already sitting child to stand on public transport, just because the person was older than the child, may talk about common courtesy, but they don't actually know what it means.

amdublin

smelltheglove wrote: »

are these rules printed anywhere or displayed anywhere?

if I sat on a bus with my 3 year old and someone confronted me asking me to free up my childs seat for them to use I would tell them I would do say when instructed by the driver, I am sorry but no, I cannot see where you are coming from at all.

Do you obey every rule in soceity yourself? Can you honestly say you have never broken a rule in any institution?

Is there anything about free fares for children printed anywhere??? Conveniently you seem to be able to locate and enjoy the free fare part but ignore the condition that it does not entitle your child to take a seat from a fee paying adult.

That is fine that is your perogative not to move unless the driver instructed. If that happened I would just go to the driver and ask him/her to inform you about the rule.

No, I don't go out of my way to knowingly break rules which are there for a reason and are quite fair in my opinion. You have not paid for your child so please put him on your lap as per the condition of carriage.

chocgirl

Enii wrote: »

Having fainted on public transport due to heat and over crowding I will gladly take a seat when offered to me. I find it unreasonable when a mother leaves a child, that they could easily take on to their lap, on a seat and does not offer it to a fellow traveller (old, young, pregnant, whatever).

If also bugs me when people do this with sports bags - again it should be taken on the owners lap.

It all just common courtesy, I reckon - after all travelling on public transport is not the most pleasant thing to do so I think it is reasonable for all of is to attempt to make it better for all fellow travellers.

You could also say that common courtesy is allowing a mother a seat to herself without having to sit her child on her lap. I'd imagine having a 3+ year old on your lap for several hours isn't the most pleasant. At the end of the day it's public transport and there may have been a multitude of reasons why the woman didn't have the child on her lap. Maybe she was unwell or worried that she would faint. Moving a child is very different to moving a sports bag!

Ludo

Ah sure if all parents put their children sitting on their laps on public transport, you would just have people on here whinging about them being awkward as they would probably take up slightly more than the space of the seat and may accidentally touch or invade the personal space of others.

amdublin

chocgirl wrote: »

You could also say that common courtesy is allowing a mother a seat to herself without having to sit her child on her lap. I'd imagine having a 3+ year old on your lap for several hours isn't the most pleasant.

The mother should buy a ticket for the child if she wishes him/her to sit on a seat rather than her lap.

mikemac

amdublin wrote: »

The mother should buy a ticket for the child if she wishes him/her to sit on a seat rather than her lap.

What's your opinions on the elderly or disabled who have travel passes?
Do they get seats? They don't pay either you know