Parents allowing their children take up seats on buses/trains etc

Enii

I think I am surprized by all these replies because when I travelled on the bus as a child my mam always made me stand so that I could offer my seat to an adult. It was just the done thing then. Maybe it is a child of the '70's thing..........

But back to the original point - I just don't think it is unreasonable for someone to expect a mother to take their child on to their lap so that more commuters could travel in comfort. It makes sense.......

Nevyn

ToniTuddle wrote: »

This thread is an eye opener. I never knew parents were suppose to take children out of their buggys...some safety regulation?

Yes.

Enii wrote: »

I think I am surprized by all these replies because when I travelled on the bus as a child my mam always made me stand so that I could offer my seat to an adult. It was just the done thing then. Maybe it is a child of the '70's thing..........

Again it depends on circumstance, if needed and I was already standing I would expect my 11 year old to give up his seat to someone who was in greater need, but I would be not happy if there were not other able bodied adults who didn't offer up their seat.

Enii wrote: »

But back to the original point - I just don't think it is unreasonable for someone to expect a mother to take their child on to their lap so that more commuters could travel in comfort. It makes sense.......

So both the mother and the child should be discomforted for the sake of someone else's comfort rather then need ?

ToniTuddle

fergalr wrote: »

What if the parent was dreadfully poor, and both child and parent were sick. The child was small, and the train was crowded.

Your two main arguments, (that you had paid for your ticket while the child hadn't, and that the rules say you get the seat) would still apply.
Would you therefore use this fact to demand the child be moved from the seat?

I'd hope you'd say "No, I'd use my common sense, and not demand the child be moved. I wouldnt force a sick child into the aisle, or onto a sick parents lap."

That's an entirely different scenario to the OP and how on earth do you know how rich/poor someone is?

Enii

Thaedydal wrote: »

So both the mother and the child should be discomforted for the sake of someone else's comfort rather then need ?

Discomfort? That's a tad dramatic! The child is being taken on to their mother's lap - not being strapped to the roof of the bus.

metrovelvet

Enii wrote: »

I think I am surprized by all these replies because when I travelled on the bus as a child my mam always made me stand so that I could offer my seat to an adult. It was just the done thing then. Maybe it is a child of the '70's thing..........

But back to the original point - I just don't think it is unreasonable for someone to expect a mother to take their child on to their lap so that more commuters could travel in comfort. It makes sense.......

Yeah well my father also sent me across the street to buy his cigarettes when I was five in the 1970s.

When people are travelling with kids you have no idea what they may have been through.

The last time I took the train with my son, it was to take him to Crumlin to see the surgeon. We were up at 530 am that day to catch the early train to Dublin and then back again on the evening train to be home at 9:30 pm.

I wonder how you would have felt if you had asked me that and I said no we just came from the surgeons, I suppose you still would have asked me if I paid for my sons seat. So that would be 90 to travel to dublin because they dont have pediatric specialist where I am.

mumto3

I would always put my little one on my lap if the train/bus was overcrowded,but i have 3 chuldren so 2 wouls have to sit on seats,mind you i pay for them,so they have every right to a seat!They always offer their seat to the elderly but i would not dream of telling them to stand for an able boddied person.Also i would like to add that more often then not iv gotten on a city bus(the wheelchair access ones)and have pushed the buggy into the section for wheelchairs and buggies,and my children have had to stand next to me for the journey as the only seats available were down the back where i could not keep an eye on them,in cases like this i wish people would have common decency to offer up their seat and go sit further back,but im going of topic now!!

Nevyn

Enii wrote: »

Discomfort? That's a tad dramatic! The child is being taken on to their mother's lap - not being strapped to the roof of the bus.

Have you ever sat for 30mins to an hour on a bus/train with a heavy restless squirming toddler on your lap?

MaxCharlie

I'm not a regular train traveler - but when i have traveled i didn't pay for my child - but i did pay full price for my ticket. It never occured to me that if an adult wanted to sit in a seat where my child is sitting that it would have to be given up to them (according to the rules as AMDublin posted) - i personally think this rule is rubbish (excluding the obvious pregnant, elderly, disabled etc) I think you should get rid of the bee in your bonet. If I don't pay for a ticket for my child - maybe i should ask for a discounted price on my fair because i have to share it (possible for the 4th-5th time that day) Maybe you should suggest to Irish Rail that under 5's should sing for their seat...

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Have you ever sat for 30mins to an hour on a bus/train with a heavy restless squirming toddler on your lap?

Try a 7 hour transatlantic.

ToniTuddle

metrovelvet wrote: »

When people are travelling with kids you have no idea what they may have been through.

The last time I took the train with my son, it was to take him to Crumlin to see the surgeon. We were up at 530 am that day to catch the early train to Dublin and then back again on the evening train to be home at 9:30 pm.

I wonder how you would have felt if you had asked me that and I said no we just came from the surgeons, I suppose you still would have asked me if I paid for my sons seat.

That is a terrible situation for you and I hope things have improved with your child.
But nobody has any idea what ANYONE on the bus/train has been going through that day/week. It's not a fair argument.

metrovelvet

ToniTuddle wrote: »

That is a terrible situation for you and I hope things have improved with your child.
But nobody has any idea what ANYONE on the bus/train has been going through that day/week. It's not a fair argument.

No it is a fair argument. I have never in my life asked for anyone to give up their seat, precisely for that reason. I have accepted it when offerred, when heavily pregnant, but never asked because NO you do not know.

smelltheglove

ToniTuddle wrote: »

That is a terrible situation for you and I hope things have improved with your child.
But nobody has any idea what ANYONE on the bus/train has been going through that day/week. It's not a fair argument.

nor do many of us here think it is a fair expectations for a child to be sat on the lap of a parent under unknowing circumstances.....

ToniTuddle

metrovelvet wrote: »

No it is a fair argument. I have never in my life asked for anyone to give up their seat, precisely for that reason. I have accepted it when offerred, when heavily pregnant, but never asked because NO you do not know.

Well sometimes people have to ask in some situations.
If it is someones right to ask but they didn't because...you never know what the person has gone through today I won't bother..... well that's not right is it!
If I had a twisted ankle or just hurt it before I got on the bus or train then I would ask someone if they would possibly mind me sitting down. I would have no problem asking that.

Thaedydal

Thaedydal wrote: »

Again it depends on circumstance, if needed and I was already standing I would expect my 11 year old to give up his seat to someone who was in greater need, but I would be not happy if there were not other able bodied adults who didn't offer up their seat.

Why? Why should an adult be expected to give up a seat ahead of an 11 year old? I often gave up my seat to people with crutches, old people and mothers with small babies on the bus home from school, and I was born in '85. An 11 year old is as capable of standing up as any adult, if not moreso.

So both the mother and the child should be discomforted for the sake of someone else's comfort rather then need ?

Why do the mother and child need the seat more than the adult? The rules of every railway company I've ever used in the world state that children may travel free provided they sit on the parent's lap. If they want their own seat, they should pay. If they have paid, then no, an adult does not have the right to move them, but I don't see why a paying adult should stand while a child sits for free.

ToniTuddle

smelltheglove wrote: »

nor do many of us here think it is a fair expectations for a child to be sat on the lap of a parent under unknowing circumstances.....

Fair enough but under certain circumstances a child could easily be sat on the lap of a parent. That's what I am saying.

cc-offe

I would never ask anyone to give up their seat either on train, luas or whatever, when I was heavily pregnant noone offered me a seat and I didn't expect them to...however if I didn't have my child with me I would always offer my seat up to a disabled/elderly/pregnant/mother myself.

As I said, the buses I travel on have seatbelts and where that option is available (and when my child is with me) I am going to use the seat belt.

ToniTuddle

ToniTuddle wrote: »

That is a terrible situation for you and I hope things have improved with your child.
But nobody has any idea what ANYONE on the bus/train has been going through that day/week. It's not a fair argument.

Exactly. The OP could have come from the hospital himself, perhaps he was asking your child to move because he was in pain or had a bad back? You don't know what's going on in anyone's life. I'm a fit looking 24 year old woman and have spent the last few weeks in agony with a back injury. I very much needed a seat on the train and rarely got one. If I asked you to move your child and you told me that, I'd stay standing, but I wouldn't feel bad about asking.

Nevyn

[quote=[Deleted User];63371244]Why? Why should an adult be expected to give up a seat ahead of an 11 year old? I often gave up my seat to people with crutches, old people and mothers with small babies on the bus home from school, and I was born in '85. An 11 year old is as capable of standing up as any adult, if not moreso.
[/quote]

Why should an able bodied well adult give up thier seat ahead of an 11 year old?

Because they will be more able to endure the journey, the bumps and turns and be better able to use the handles which are normal set at where adults can access and use them better then a child.

A sudden lurch forward and being bounced off other adults and the interiors of the bus or train will do less damage to a full grown able bodied well adult then a child.

[quote=[Deleted User];63371244]
Why do the mother and child need the seat more than the adult? The rules of every railway company I've ever used in the world state that children may travel free provided they sit on the parent's lap. If they want their own seat, they should pay. If they have paid, then no, an adult does not have the right to move them, but I don't see why a paying adult should stand while a child sits for free.[/QUOTE]

I would by a ticket for my children once they were old enough to sit beside me when the buggy was folded up so exactly this would not happen and I did when needed show the ticket to people.

cc-offe

Tonituddle, I think under those certain circumstances you mention most people would and do sit the child on their laps.
Parents that don't move the child should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Also, If someone had a sick child or was unwell themselves and couldn't put the child on their lap and happened to buy a child ticket for their little one, they still would not be guaranteed a seat for that child anyway so most people would not buy the ticket.

Thaedydal

Thaedydal wrote: »

Why should an able bodied well adult give up thier seat ahead of an 11 year old?

Because they will be more able to endure the journey, the bumps and turns and be better able to use the handles which are normal set at where adults can access and use them better then a child.

A sudden lurch forward and being bounced off other adults and the interiors of the bus or train will do less damage to a full grown able bodied well adult then a child.

Please, we're talking about an 11 year old, not a 4 year old. Most of the 11 and 12 year olds on my bus ended up standing for most journeys. The bus driver would ask us to give up our seats for adults, and I don't think anyone suffered any terrible effects. Why do so many people today treat their kids like they're made of glass? Little kids, sure, they should ideally be sitting down, but secondary age ones? They're probably more able to stand than a lot of adults.

fergalr

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Originally Posted by fergalr View Post
What if the parent was dreadfully poor, and both child and parent were sick. The child was small, and the train was crowded.

Your two main arguments, (that you had paid for your ticket while the child hadn't, and that the rules say you get the seat) would still apply.
Would you therefore use this fact to demand the child be moved from the seat?

I'd hope you'd say "No, I'd use my common sense, and not demand the child be moved. I wouldnt force a sick child into the aisle, or onto a sick parents lap."

That's an entirely different scenario to the OP and how on earth do you know how rich/poor someone is?

1) Its an analogy. It attempts to use a different situation to show that following the rules isn't always the best thing to do. I'm trying to say that we sometimes use common sense instead of just following the rules - like if the other person is sick. I then go on to say that we should use common sense instead of just following the rules, if the other person is a little kid.

2) I'm also trying to make the point that you *don't* know whether the person you are forcing to move (because 'thats the rules' and because 'Ive paid for my ticket') actually is sick, or really tired, or otherwise unable to have their kid on their lap, or pay for a second ticket.

I'm trying to argue here that while it might be ok to ask someone like that to put their kid on their lap, its not a good idea to use the rules to force them to. Common decency involves a certain amount of trust that they would let you sit there if they could. Sometimes that means you'll end up standing, rather than having it out with someone who is being mean and hogging the seat. But thats better than forcing a little kid, or tired parent to give up the seat when they need it more than you.

ToniTuddle

cc-offe wrote: »

Tonituddle, I think under those certain circumstances you mention most people would and do sit the child on their laps.
Parents that don't move the child should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Also, If someone had a sick child or was unwell themselves and couldn't put the child on their lap and happened to buy a child ticket for their little one, they still would not be guaranteed a seat for that child anyway so most people would not buy the ticket.

All I know is, I would lift the child onto my lap if there was someone standing. Even if that person who was standing was able-bodied.

If anyone saw a sick child/parent then hopefully they would give up their seat. It's simply a nice thing to do.

jessbud

In one way I can see the op point of view. I used to travel from Kildare to Dublin every day on the train and there is nothing worse than having to stand for the whole journey, especially after a long day at work.

On the other hand I think its her attitude which is annoying. We all know you paid for your monthly ticket and we all know the rules laid down by IE off by heart now. Even if that mother had bought a ticket for her child I'd say you would still give out as the child should have given up their seat for you as you are the elder.

ToniTuddle

fergalr wrote: »

1) Its an analogy. It attempts to use a different situation to show that following the rules isn't always the best thing to do.

Ok I understand what you were trying to do.

2) I'm also trying to make the point that you *don't* know whether the person you are forcing to move (because 'thats the rules' and because 'Ive paid for my ticket') actually is sick, or really tired, or otherwise unable to have their kid on their lap, or pay for a second ticket.

I understand that but what I am saying is, the parent sitting down doesn't know whether the person standing is actually sick, really tired, unable to stand.

I'm trying to argue here that while it might be ok to ask someone like that to put their kid on their lap, its not a good idea to use the rules to force them to. Common decency involves a certain amount of trust that they would let you sit there if they could. Sometimes that means you'll end up standing, rather than having it out with someone who is being mean and hogging the seat. But thats better than forcing a little kid, or tired parent to give up the seat when they need it more than you.

Maybe not to force them to. But if you politly ask someone if they would mind having the child on their lap....I see no wrong in that. They shouldn't be made feel bad for asking.
Common decency does involve a certain amount of trust but most common decency has flown out the window. So at times people need reminding of it.

Oh and another point, I don't think it should be about respecting your elders but more about respecting the person.

smelltheglove

ToniTuddle wrote: »

All I know is, I would lift the child onto my lap if there was someone standing. Even if that person who was standing was able-bodied.

If anyone saw a sick child/parent then hopefully they would give up their seat. It's simply a nice thing to do.

A lot of people would, I would myself unless in a position where I was unable to, however I feel the reason this thread has gone so long and gotten up soo many peopkes backs is the attitude portrayed in the original post, the I bought my ticket and they are not entitled to a seat approach alongside the when I was brought up scenario just comes across a little holier than thou to me to be honest.

ToniTuddle

smelltheglove wrote: »

A lot of people would, I would myself unless in a position where I was unable to, however I feel the reason this thread has gone so long and gotten up soo many peopkes backs is the attitude portrayed in the original post, the I bought my ticket and they are not entitled to a seat approach alongside the when I was brought up scenario just comes across a little holier than thou to me to be honest.

Ah well I can see that, then with some folks not reading certain posts correctly or getting the wrong meaning from them..it all goes to poo!
I think the OP may have also been annoyed by the mother's reaction, that probably came through a little in her post.

fergalr

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Ok I understand what you were trying to do.

Cool, thanks.

ToniTuddle wrote: »

I understand that but what I am saying is, the parent sitting down doesn't know whether the person standing is actually sick, really tired, unable to stand.

Right - in that case, I don't have an issue with the parent being asked to put the kid on their lap. Thats not what I'm arguing at all. I think in practice theres generally plenty of other able bodied individuals around who could be asked first - but I broadly agree with you.

This isn't what the OP was getting at though - what you are saying here is just common sense, and has nothing to do with the strict rules being enforced, or who did and didn't pay for a ticket - you are just saying the person that needs it most gets it - which I completely agree with.

I've no issue with someone that needs a seat asking for it.
My only issue would be with someone who is completely able bodied asking for a seat, and then, when they are refused, using the rules to demand that they be given a seat anyway.
Which is exactly what the OP was talking about.

I think that in such cases, if someone refuses you a seat, given that you don't know what their personal circumstances are, its best to just leave it at that, and not get officious about it.
If I was in need of a seat, I'd also err on the side of asking other able bodied people, before those with kids.

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Maybe not to force them to. But if you politly ask someone if they would mind having the child on their lap....I see no wrong in that. They shouldn't be made feel bad for asking.
Common decency does involve a certain amount of trust but most common decency has flown out the window. So at times people need reminding of it.

Oh and another point, I don't think it should be about respecting your elders but more about respecting the person.

I agree with this sentiment too.

Nevyn

jessbud wrote: »

In one way I can see the op point of view. I used to travel from Kildare to Dublin every day on the train and there is nothing worse than having to stand for the whole journey, especially after a long day at work.

Have you complained to the train operators about the lack of seats and the need for more carriages?

ToniTuddle

fergalr wrote: »

My only issue would be with someone who is completely able bodied asking for a seat, and then, when they are refused, using the rules to demand that they be given a seat anyway.
Which is exactly what the OP was talking about.

I think that in such cases, if someone refuses you a seat, given that you don't know what their personal circumstances are, its best to just leave it at that, and not get officious about it.
If I was in need of a seat, I'd also err on the side of asking other able bodied people, before those with kids.

That's cleared it up, I completely understand you now!

Kimono-Girl

Just my 2 cents as i dont think it was mentioned, but did anyone think maybe this woman with the chlid in the op's post had a problem with a 'strange' man sitting beside her and her child? she didnt know him at all and suddenly he's demanding to sit on the seat next to her, some people have a thing about strangers...but yet need to use public transport and thus would sit next to their child rather than putting the child on their lap..i've seen people do iit with bags too...

i know myself in todays society i would be wary of random people sitting right next to me on a bus or train or whatever! nevermind letting them sit next to my child...i know it probally sounds paranoid but its just the way i feel.