No Christmas this year

yawn

cson wrote: »

A 2 child unemployed family for the month of Dec;

8 x Welfare Payments (Both Parents) €1632
1 x Child Benefit €332

May I point out that if your claiming as a family on social welfare you do not get €204 for each parent

cson

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I'm not suggesting we should have some kind of debt repayment system within social welfare, that would be a totally unaceptable moral hazard

But you should expect to be able to pay your debt out of your welfare each week according to the rationale you applied above.

-

BlueLepreachaun wrote:

or better yet try living on 200euro a week yourselves for a while, then subtract about 1/4 of that as if it was for debt repayments and see how you get on.

You're kidding me right? You're actually kidding me?

cson

gcgirl wrote: »

its actuall 10 cent 366 euro a week
204.30 personal rate
135.60 qualified adult
26..00 a child

then child benefit 332

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

In any case, I was only €168 off.

cson

masteroftherealm wrote: »

And that attitude is why this country is going nowhere.
We are so far back in the stone age in attitude and technology we are going backwards at this stage. Lowering the minimum wage, trying to get manufacturing and farming jobs. We are a First World economy, we are not a country who should be focusing on the Primary and Secondary industries, we are a country who should be moving into a majority tertiary income base yet we are still stuck in the dark ages. Ireland will not recover until we realize that things cant just stay the same, progress is whats needed, highly payed skilled jobs are whats needed to recover this economy not someone working for five euro an hour, that is whats wrong with this country, we are focusing on the entirely wrong thing

Take away Luxembourg and show me an economy based almost entirely on the tertiary sector? It doesn't work, it needs to be married to a Primary and Secondary base sector.

BlueLepreachaun

But you should expect to be able to pay your debt out of your welfare each week according to the rationale you applied above.

The people I know on social welfare can't pay their debts, but they can make token payments to some of them which are enough to keep them off their backs, thats going to be harder to do if the rates keep getting cut.
No I'm not kidding, I don't think you realize the scale of debt people are in, and the same people who are now demanding welfare be cut are people be smart with debt and spending are the same people who were calling for regulations on banks and lending to be relaxed and telling us how we were gonna have a "soft landing" in the property market back in 07.

Take away Luxembourg and show me an economy based almost entirely on the tertiary sector? It doesn't work, it needs to be married to a Primary and Secondary base sector.

In fairness to the overall point being made though, the idea that we can compete solely on wages is pretty absurd, were a western european country, were not gonna compete with south east asia.
Manufacturing isn't exactly a wise niche for us to get into, its not 1995 anymore.

masteroftherealm

Canada

agriculture (2%), manufacturing (13%), construction (6%), services (76%), other (3%) (2006)

Example given as its the country I know most about. Many other examples abound in the 1st World.

cson

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

No I'm not kidding, I don't think you realize the scale of debt people are in, and the same people who are now demanding welfare be cut are people be smart with debt and spending are the same people who were calling for regulations on banks and lending to be relaxed and telling us how we were gonna have a "soft landing" in the property market back in 07.

Oh I realize fully the amount of debt people in this country are in. It's quite staggering to say the least. But, it takes two to tango as the saying goes - reckless lending was married to irresponsible borrowing and anyone in that situation can't justifiably plead ignorance or innocence.

ronbyrne2005

Milk is a staple basic food and you can get 2 litres of milk for 1.29 in many shops near me in Dublin. When i worked in a shop as a teenager in 1997 the cheapest milk you could get was 99p . So allowing for inflation etc milk is probably cheaper now than 12years ago yet social welfare has multiplied. Milk is a proxy for basic foods as i cant seem to find data on cso.ie

masteroftherealm

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Milk is a staple basic food and you can get 2 litres of milk for 1.29 in many shops near me in Dublin. When i worked in a shop as a teenager in 1997 the cheapest milk you could get was 99p . So allowing for inflation etc milk is probably cheaper now than 12years ago yet social welfare has multiplied. Milk is a proxy for basic foods as i cant seem to find data on cso.ie

Im sorry you cant base cost of living on milk which is a price controlled good.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Your kidding me right? Your actually kidding me? I don't know what kinda world you think we live in but it's not one where personal responcibiity is the primary factor n spending habits, the basic marketing techniques of credit card companies and morgage lenders was and is to appeal to the persons irrational sub-conscious, the government can't just let this rampent orgy of excessive lending and speculating go on for 10 years then say sorry your own your own when the inevitable consequences they were warned repeatidly about come to pass.

I'm not suggesting we should have some kind of debt repayment system within social welfare, that would be a totally unaceptable moral hazard, we need far more strict regulation of lending for the future to prevent this happening again, but to suggest that in cutting welfare now we shoudl take no account of the reasons for past debt accumulation is just putting blinkers on.

No single person on SW could be left with 800euro disposable income since the payment (before expenses are spent on) is only 600...

Yeh an extra €26 per child, they better not spend it all in one place:rolleyes:

Are you frigging kidding me? you go crazy with a credit card get yourself up to your arm pits in debt, and people who continue to work should pay it off for you? ARE YOU FOR REAL?

I'm starting to lose my faith in this discussion, you came across as pretty intelligent poster early doors, but I'm starting to think your saying this to get a rise out of people.

You go to your bank/CC you show them your social receipt, you show them what comes in and what goes out. from what your saing you don't have a penny to spare, so you can't get blood from a stone, so they're going to have to wait untill you're in a better position.

you can do deals with them and get the interest frozen etc.

you do not use your social welfare payments to pay off your debts.

if you can do that your just proving a point of why it should be cut.

the goverment did not make me or anyone else load up a credit card.

or take out loans for holidays, or to add a few feet to your house.

YOU take responibility for that. you deal with it, you don't put the burdon of that on your fellow tax payers.

chirst all mighty.

argosy2006

OP drives as mercedes e300 td. cost to tax 1500 a year, why is he not driving a nissan micra 172 tax a year,?
he drives the highest possible car to car 3.0L upwards.
he has sky tv multiroom,
satellite laptop new!
broadband
list goes on,
loads of stuff that could be cut to pay for food,if situation is that bad

ntlbell

argosy2006 wrote: »

OP drives as mercedes e300 td. cost to tax 1500 a year, why is he not driving a nissan micra 172 tax a year,?
he drives the highest possible car to car 3.0L upwards.
he has sky tv multiroom,
satellite laptop new!
broadband
list goes on,
loads of stuff that could be cut to pay for food,if situation is that bad

huh?

how do you know all this?

BlueLepreachaun

cson wrote: »

Oh I realize fully the amount of debt people in this country are in. It's quite staggering to say the least. But, it takes two to tango as the saying goes - reckless lending was married to irresponsible borrowing and anyone in that situation can't justifiably plead ignorance or innocence.

I'm not suggesting a debt amnesty, just saying the level of personal debt should be a factor in considering things like wage cuts or welfare cuts, espechally for people saying that the rates of welfare are enough to cover basics, which they are, but my point was debt sqeezes that budget even more so that some people, if their debt was high enough, may have trouble with the basics.

Are you frigging kidding me? you go crazy with a credit card get yourself up to your arm pits in debt, and people who continue to work should pay it off for you? ARE YOU FOR REAL?

I didn't say welfare should pay anyones debt off, in fact I celarly said the exact opposate, that welfare should not pay off debts, I'm saying the level of personal debt should be consedered when making grand statements such as "welfare is generious how can you not afford the basics"

You go to your bank/CC you show them your social receipt, you show them what comes in and what goes out. from what your saing you don't have a penny to spare, so you can't get blood from a stone, so they're going to have to wait untill you're in a better position.
you can do deals with them and get the interest frozen etc.

You can do that to an extent, some morgage contracts allow you to freeze payments for a few months etc, but that cannot be done with everything, it just can't.

I had no income and no welfare for a few months there, zero, zilch and I said this to my credit card company that I simply had nothing to pay them, they still sent me a letter outlining miniumum payments, it was a little lower, but it was still there.

you do not use your social welfare payments to pay off your debts.

If you ignore your debts they take you to court and you face jail or repossession (which was not hapeneing recently because of a moratorium which is now over I think) or seizure of assets, ignoring your debts is not a wise option, for anyone.

if you can do that your just proving a point of why it should be cut.

the goverment did not make me or anyone else load up a credit card.

Sigh.
Nobody said they did...but during the drunken orgy of the celtic tiger years when everyone said the party would never end, companies preapproved everyone and their mother for credit cards and their marketing techniques appealed, as I already said, to peoples irrational subconcious, they used very very clever, very sophicticated techniques to get people into debt, I don't think you realize the sheer effort that went into it, there was even less sophisticated efforts, I had MBNA applications literally SHOVED into my hand in the supermaket and I was barely 18, morgagages were given to people who clearly couldn't afford them, house prices exploded.

This wholly rational world where personal responsibility is the deciding factor in all spending decisions does not exist.
If it did the marketing and advertising industries would not exist.

or take out loans for holidays, or to add a few feet to your house.

You'll get no argument from me that middle class twats shoudn't have bought deckin or that extension to impress Joanne down the road but you've gotta reaize personal stupidity wasn't the only factor at work here, in fact it was the least powerful factor.

I did not say welfare should pay off debts. I'm saying if you have loads of debt welfare may not be enough to meet your basic payments which would explain situations like the OP, nor is it a soloution to ignore your debt, any halfway decent debt advisor would tell you that.

The OP may indeed have hoards of exessive spending, by making the debt point I'm simply outlining how it would be possible for someone on welfare to still have trouble meeting the basics.

satellite laptop new!

What exactly is a satellite laptop?

argosy2006

ntlbell wrote: »

huh?

how do you know all this?

i just do, its in his other posts,asking about lil prob with his merc,, another post about his new laptop,
another about his mulitroom so on so on,, thats alot of stuff he could get rid of, buy a 999cc car and pay 172 tax not 1500 plus,,how de hell did he buy that expensive laptop, wish i had one, wish i had multiroom too,
and a mercedes e300 diesel 1999:D

argosy2006

What exactly is a satellite laptop?[/quote]
http://laptops.toshiba.com/laptops/Satellite

BlueLepreachaun

argosy2006 wrote: »

What exactly is a satellite laptop?

http://laptops.toshiba.com/laptops/Satellite[/quote]

Ah rite its a brand...christ I was picturing some kinda of hi tech CIAesque device..

K-9

argosy2006 wrote: »

i just do, its in his other posts,asking about lil prob with his merc,, another post about his new laptop,
another about his mulitroom so on so on,, thats alot of stuff he could get rid of, buy a 999cc car and pay 172 tax not 1500 plus,,how de hell did he buy that expensive laptop, wish i had one, wish i had multiroom too,
and a mercedes e300 diesel 1999:D

Jaysus, €1,500 to tax a car.

BlueLepreachaun

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus, €1,500 to tax a car.

....and to think he's paying all that money so it can go to welfare spongers like....oh.......rite...:D

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I'm not suggesting a debt amnesty, just saying the level of personal debt should be a factor in considering things like wage cuts or welfare cuts, espechally for people saying that the rates of welfare are enough to cover basics, which they are, but my point was debt sqeezes that budget even more so that some people, if their debt was high enough, may have trouble with the basics.

again, you work something out with the bank, or go to MABS and have them do it on your behalf.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I didn't say welfare should pay anyones debt off, in fact I celarly said the exact opposate, that welfare should not pay off debts, I'm saying the level of personal debt should be consedered when making grand statements such as "welfare is generious how can you not afford the basics"
You can do that to an extent, some morgage contracts allow you to freeze payments for a few months etc, but that cannot be done with everything, it just can't.

no it shouldn't be taken into consideration because the social is not for debt re-payments, around we go.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I had no income and no welfare for a few months there, zero, zilch and I said this to my credit card company that I simply had nothing to pay them, they still sent me a letter outlining miniumum payments, it was a little lower, but it was still there.

Did you contact MABS?

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

If you ignore your debts they take you to court and you face jail or repossession (which was not hapeneing recently because of a moratorium which is now over I think) or seizure of assets, ignoring your debts is not a wise option, for anyone.

You don't ignore them, banks are not stupid, you contact them ASAP and work out a plan.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Sigh.
Nobody said they did...but during the drunken orgy of the celtic tiger years when everyone said the party would never end, companies preapproved everyone and their mother for credit cards and their marketing techniques appealed, as I already said, to peoples irrational subconcious, they used very very clever, very sophicticated techniques to get people into debt, I don't think you realize the sheer effort that went into it, there was even less sophisticated efforts, I had MBNA applications literally SHOVED into my hand in the supermaket and I was barely 18, morgagages were given to people who clearly couldn't afford them, house prices exploded.

I had them shoved down my throat as did many, but if i get up to my nippled in it, i can't blame MBNA or anyone else, it's my fault and I have to deal with that and NOT with social welfare payments.

tallaghtnutter

Its all well and good for people saying people have to make do with what they`ve got money wise this Christmas,but i`d put it to you this way,there are to many people in ireland this year that have been let go from their jobs,good hard working people with families that have to now go to welfare for a hand out (that`s all you can call welfare),i`m one of these people,i know i won`t be able to give my kids all they want this christmas which breaks my heart.Don`t be ready to jump on people just cos they won`t tell all of you their full back ground storys,not everyone is the same,some people get more from welfare then others,there`s people out there who are losing their family car,the family home and come wednesday maybe losing a hole lot more.Remember that their could be some one here looking for real help in how to make it a real christmas for their kids,think first before you reply to someone to what your going to say to them,and lets try make it a peaceful christmas this year without someone feeling that there`s noway out for them.....There`s always a way out if people are willing to listen.

cson

tallaghtnutter wrote: »

Its all well and good for people saying people have to make do with what they`ve got money wise this Christmas,but i`d put it to you this way,there are to many people in ireland this year that have been let go from their jobs,good hard working people with families that have to now go to welfare for a hand out (that`s all you can call welfare),i`m one of these people,i know i won`t be able to give my kids all they want this christmas which breaks my heart.Don`t be ready to jump on people just cos they won`t tell all of you their full back ground storys,not everyone is the same,some people get more from welfare then others,there`s people out there who are losing their family car,the family home and come wednesday maybe losing a hole lot more.Remember that their could be some one here looking for real help in how to make it a real christmas for their kids,think first before you reply to someone to what your going to say to them,and lets try make it a peaceful christmas this year without someone feeling that there`s noway out for them.....There`s always a way out if people are willing to listen.

No PS3 then? My heart breaks for them too. God knows I'd love a PS3.

I don't mean to be harsh, but Christmas is not all about the presents and giving. Once you can sit down to dinner together as a family and spend the day off together then thats Christmas in my eyes.

blackbetty69

what? theres no christmas this year?! says who?!

K-9

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

....and to think he's paying all that money so it can go to welfare spongers like....oh.......rite...:D

If he traded in the car, the saving would go a long way.

masteroftherealm

cson wrote: »

No PS3 then? My heart breaks for them too. God knows I'd love a PS3.

I don't mean to be harsh, but Christmas is not all about the presents and giving. Once you can sit down to dinner together as a family and spend the day off together then thats Christmas in my eyes.

In this case Ill agree with you mate. Presents are not the meaning of Christmas. You can have a fantastic Christmas with no money. And as for the kids they will forget about not getting the PS3 in a few week when the PS4 comes out or the new Wii2 or something like that.
And we all know kids end up playing with the boxes more than the presents.

masteroftherealm

K-9 wrote: »

If he traded in the car, the saving would go a long way.

Try living in Rural Ireland without a car.

BlueLepreachaun

again, you work something out with the bank, or go to MABS and have them do it on your behalf.

Man, I'm sorry, you can't bull**** me, I've been in that situation, they don't care, they're there to get the money, they're not running a charity.

no it shouldn't be taken into consideration because the social is not for debt re-payments, around we go.

It doens't actually say what its for...you can use it for whatever you like (which is why a guy I know of pisses it down the toilet before Monday), otherwise they'd just give you seperate vouchers for food and rent etc...
But not taking into consideration the levels of personal debt, when your a govt, would be total incompetence, you would be condeming people to being thrown out of their homes, or to prison.

Did you contact MABS?

Yes, they can't negotiate down to zero, and zero was what I had, you still have to make payments.

You don't ignore them, banks are not stupid, you contact them ASAP and work out a plan.

Plans alwyas involve some payments, and when you add all those debts together, even with the reduced plans, combined with welfare which is a fractin of your former income, you still have a tight budget.

I had them shoved down my throat as did many, but if i get up to my nippled in it, i can't blame MBNA or anyone else, it's my fault and I have to deal with that and NOT with social welfare payments.

Classic peasent mentality, pathetic.

I don't mean to be harsh, but Christmas is not all about the presents and giving. Once you can sit down to dinner together as a family and spend the day off together then thats Christmas in my eyes.

I think most people would call sitting down to dinner together as a family 6pm on a weekday....christmas is all about the presents and the giving...thats the ENTIRE point of the secular part of christmas, and with less than 50% of Irelands catholics attending mass weekly don't tell me its all about the religion for them.

If he traded in the car, the saving would go a long way.

WIthout a doubt.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Man, I'm sorry, you can't bull**** me, I've been in that situation, they don't care, they're there to get the money, they're not running a charity.

Exactly, and bringing you to court, costing them a fortune and NOT gettng the money, they won't be making ANY, where if you can sit down with them and come up with a REALISTIC plan of how you're going to pay them back, they will work with you, if not, go to MABS and if all else fails ahdn your plan to the judge, I'm sure he'll be impressed.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

It doens't actually say what its for...you can use it for whatever you like, otherwise they'd just give you seperate vouchers for food and rent etc...
But not taking into consideration the levels of personal debt, when your a govt, would be total incompetence, you would be condeming people to being thrown out of their homes, or to prison.

Well hopefully they will move to a more voucher/food/clothing scheme and put an end to it.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Yes, they can't negotiate down to zero, and zero was what I had, you still have to make payments.

No, you can get it frozen out.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Plans alwyas involve some payments, and when you add all those debts together, even with the reduced plans, combined with welfare which is a fractin of your former income, you still have a tight budget.

No, you can get them frozen.

BlueLepreachaun

Well hopefully they will move to a more voucher/food/clothing scheme and put an end to it.

Yes lets model ourselves on America...nice and barbaric...their sick twisted society is exactly the direction we should be going...
Mass shootings and troops on the streets of cities to maintain order...what a wonderful role model.


Well I specifically asked them to freeze mine, for just 6 weeks as I was confident I could get a job in that time, they said no, flat out, and sent me a letter telling me I had minium payments and I'd signed a contract.

You don't live in the real world sir.

K-9

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Try living in Rural Ireland without a car.

Read my post again, focus on the "traded in" part.

masteroftherealm

K-9 wrote: »

Read my post again, focus on the "traded in" part.

Fair 'nuf misread your post, my bad,