No Christmas this year

koHd

jcrobod wrote: »

We didn't make bad choices, masteroftherealm. It's just that the recession and high taxes levies etc. have hit at an expensive family time. Three students take well over half our take home income to support them €1,200 monthly rent (1 yr. lease) c.€250 for ESB, gas, telephone./broadband, panda rubbish bins etc, €4,500 college reg. fees,and €500 each for food, transport, clothing, books etc.etc. While the headline €100,000 p.a. is indeed an excellent income, we are not left with enough of it to meet our family committments without a serious struggle. Add in our home mortgage, €100 monthly drugs refund bill, and, as Imimmfn says, we at home with 3 children would be nearly as well off on social welfare. However, we see light at the end opf the tunnell - they all won't be students forever, and as some finish, others will leave home to start, and eventually the expenses at home and away will diminish, and there will be other Christmasses! It's just that not all "high earners" should be deemed "the wealthy" without any account taken of family obligations.

What lucky kids you have! You're covering an awful lot of expenses for them out of your own pocket. As bad as things are, there's still part time jobs out there. Have they tried to get one? College students usually live the cheap life, but it sounds like your kids are wll looked after. Not knocking you btw. Fair play. But if it is affecting you at home maybe they could take a hit and lighten their burden on you. I know working families with less than those college kids.

jcrobod

It mightn't be the norm, but it is what's happening. We have three third level students, all dependent, and all studying full time. There are no part time jobs out there for students, and anyway, they don't have a lot of spare time. One is in first year, two are doing their degrees this academic year, one in May/June, one in August. If they are to finish their education, I have no option but to finance them, which I am happy to do, whatever the effort we have to make. It's just a bit pressurised at the moment that there is no account taken in the system of family obligations - we are just termed "the wealthy", and are a target for every levy and cut going. I work like a slave, and we are not being left with enough of our income to meet our committments.I don't want hand-outs,I just to be allowed keep enough of the benefit of my work to maintain my family and see them independent.

koHd

jcrobod wrote: »

It mightn't be the norm, but it is what's happening. We have three third level students, all dependent, and all studying full time. There are no part time jobs out there for students, and anyway, they don't have a lot of spare time. One is in first year, two are doing their degrees this academic year, one in May/June, one in August. If they are to finish their education, I have no option but to finance them, which I am happy to do, whatever the effort we have to make. It's just a bit pressurised at the moment that there is no account taken in the system of family obligations - we are just termed "the wealthy", and are a target for every levy and cut going. I work like a slave, and we are not being left with enough of our income to meet our committments.I don't want hand-outs,I just to be allowed keep enough of the benefit of my work to maintain my family and see them independent.

I do agree with you that it's unfair if one person has a large income that no grant or social aid will even look at you. Clearly in your case your kids should qualify for some grants. But they probably don't because of the one large income? Really annoying considering some of the people that qualify for every aid and grant going really don't deserve or make as good a use of it as your family would. Have you talked to any grant or aid organisations about the situation?

jcrobod

We qualify for nothing! Because we are "the wealthy"! It never occurred to me to even go looking, to be honest. I am sure we would be laughed out of it. The old headline figure of a large income assumes there is money to burn! And taken in relation to the thousands dependent on social welfare, we know we are privileged - at least my kids are getting their education, and may go on to become useful taxpayers! But right now, I wish there was some recognition of the fact. What is really annoying is that if my 22 year old was not a student, she could sit in Dublin and draw €204 per week (twice as much as I pay her)(looking for a job that's not there). Since I choose to work like a slave to keep her in education, we get nothing, not even tax relief on her maintenance. She would cost the government c €10,000 per year - giving me tax relief would only cost them c.€2,500 on the €5000 p.a. I pay her.

CiaranC

jcrobod wrote: »

We qualify for nothing! Because we are "the wealthy"!

You ARE the wealthy. You have three children in full time tertiary education with everything paid for them! If you choose to do that, then stop moaning about it.

jcrobod

CiaranC - that's just the point. I would be wealthy, if I didn't have 6 much loved children. And like every other parent, I am prepared to be stretched to the limit for them. It's just that there is a limit, and we have just about reached it, and we are about to be hammered for more. I'm not moaning because I have to pay for them - I'm delighted to do so. I just want to be allowed to continue to do so. What's the point of me continuing to work like a slave, and make my contribution to the state, if I can't look after my own children with what's left. I should work less, drop my income, and qualify for grants, medical card, lower levies etc.

koHd

CiaranC wrote: »

You ARE the wealthy. You have three children in full time tertiary education with everything paid for them! If you choose to do that, then stop moaning about it.

I think that's unfair. Especially considering the fact they are paying high taxes and contributing to society all across the board with educated children coming through. There should be support available for this persons kids in college. If there was a family of 8 people all unemployed' with two adults on welfare as well as the three older kids on welfare with no college costs/taxes/work expenses/full rent mortgage, they would be potentially wealthier than this family that are actually making an effort to be educated and work.

CiaranC

jcrobod wrote: »

CiaranC - that's just the point. I would be wealthy, if I didn't have 6 much loved children. And like every other parent, I am prepared to be stretched to the limit for them. It's just that there is a limit, and we have just about reached it

If you think "the limit" is not being able to pay for every single thing your huge family wants, then you are living in cuckoo land.

koHd

CiaranC wrote: »

If you think "the limit" is not being able to pay for every single thing your huge family wants, then you are living in cuckoo land.

Ciaran, I think the point is our current system encourages large families and unemployment. If a large unemployed family can qialify for grants and welfare, why shouldn't a large family with a decent self made income? The country has this kind of thing backwards and will continue to see large amounts of uneducated and unemployed families milking the system. We are creating the problem ourselves. We actually punish educated high earners and reward uneducated non earners. That's completely backward and will see any society go to ****. Like ours has.

CiaranC

koHd wrote: »

Ciaran, I think the point is our current system encourages large families and unemployment. If a large unemployed family can qialify for grants and welfare, why shouldn't a large family with a decent self made income? The country has this kind of thing backwards and will continue to see large amounts of uneducated and unemployed families milking the system. We are creating the problem ourselves. We actually punish educated high earners and reward uneducated non earners. That's completely backward and will see any society go to ****. Like ours has.

I dont think taking grants from low income families and giving them instead to high income families is the answer...

I agree the system could use some tightening up.

koHd

CiaranC wrote: »

I dont think taking grants from low income families and giving them instead to high income families is the answer...

I agree the system could use some tightening up.

I don't propose taking from low income houses. I just think even high earners should get the chance for their kids to receive grants. Some of the means tests are flawed. Clearly this family should get some breaks and grants for the college kids. Although saying that, I think the poster said they hadn't even applied because they assume they'd get nothing? So maybe they could get something and it's not as harsh as I'm thinking.

Bandit12

I call bs on the OP's whole story. Poverty today in Ireland consists of when the parents can't afford to buy the kids a PS3/Xbox/Wii for xmas. Boo hoo. Fact is social welfare is way way to high in this country as well as public service pay.

MaceFace

Bandit12 wrote: »

I call bs on the OP's whole story. Poverty today in Ireland consists of when the parents can't afford to buy the kids a PS3/Xbox/Wii for xmas. Boo hoo. Fact is social welfare is way way to high in this country as well as public service pay.

I agree - unless of course there is many facts that is not being shared......

ninty9er

€100k gross is approx €68k after PAYE, PRSI and Income levy, on one income in a two parent household.

Children's allowance for 4 children (we'll assume number 3 qualifies for the extra year due to higher ed) is €738 per month, which adds up to approx €9k so you have a net income of around €77k...excuse me while I go get the world's smallest violin to play for you.

THERE ARE jobs out there for students, your 3 just need to pick up 10 hours a week to keep themselves fed and watered...and that's a light workload, take it from someone who's done it.

No pity here.

lmimmfn

CiaranC wrote: »

You ARE the wealthy. You have three children in full time tertiary education with everything paid for them! If you choose to do that, then stop moaning about it.

hey, thats completely unfair, my family was working class and with grants and me working in the summers i finished college. So my family getting the grant for free compared to someone who pays makes them rich? cmon, completely unfair assessment.

c montgomery

Laptop1 wrote: »

We have to cancel Christmas this year. It is too expensive for us. We cannot afford gifts as some of us are on Social Welfare and that covers very little. SVP did come to our aid about three weeks ago but we are now alone again. We eat over the weekends and then we make sure the kids are fed from Sunday onwards and we go without food until Wednesday. Anyone else in this situation???? http://static.boards.ie/vbulletin/images/icons/icon9.gif

Troll????

gcgirl

c montgomery wrote: »

roll anyone ????

To be honest more than likely!
But also your not suppose to say the T word if you want to quickly edit it!

lmimmfn

gcgirl wrote: »

To be honest more than likely!
But also your not suppose to say the T word if you want to quickly edit it!

you've just quoted him so theres no point :P

gcgirl

lmimmfn wrote: »

you've just quoted him so theres no point :P

Fixed it

CiaranC

lmimmfn wrote: »

hey, thats completely unfair, my family was working class and with grants and me working in the summers i finished college. So my family getting the grant for free compared to someone who pays makes them rich? cmon, completely unfair assessment.

Thats not what i said at all. Their 100k income makes them rich.

lmimmfn

CiaranC wrote: »

Thats not what i said at all. Their 100k income makes them rich.

100k income is not rich, as i said previously its ~63k after tax+levies, in comparison to the poster someone on welfare, unmarried with 3 kids can get 40k on welfare a year( rent allowance + all the other allowances ) + free medical + free grants for the kids college education, how can you say 100k for a couple is rich????

For 1 person earning its rich but not together as a couple, completely different story.

jcrobod

You are right, Imimmfn. With the committments we have on after tax (single) income we manage, but we are certainly not rich. And even the Children's Allowances for us will get a hit - we will only have 2 entitled after Christmas, as the other child is already 18 at school. I don't know how she is meant to cost less after Christmas, just because of her age - I actually think it should be paid until a child leaves school, even if they have turned 18 - they do not get less expensive coming up to Leaving Cert. And the summer jobs are all gone by the time Leaving Cert ends! But roll on Christmas anyway, and next September when things may be easier. Everyone is healthy, and they'll all get a "token of respect" for Christmas and be glad of it. The crib and the tree will go up at the week-end, and the Budget won't kick in until January, so the battle goes on. I am glad to see that you, at least, have some grasp of the realities of living with a large family! It's getting to the stage that people are nearly ashamed to have a job, so that they are a little better off than being on Social Welfare.

HashSlinging

I found myself in the same situation as OP once, I was self employed at the time and my contract finished up, it was the dot com crash, took me three months to get a job, three of us (me, wife and child) found it a complete struggle, and yes I did live on koka noddles, but did anyone starve !?? no.

We went to the social welfare and because I was self employed they wouldnt give us anything even though we were not married, its a messed up system.

CiaranC

lmimmfn wrote: »

100k income is not rich, as i said previously its ~63k after tax+levies, in comparison to the poster someone on welfare, unmarried with 3 kids can get 40k on welfare a year( rent allowance + all the other allowances ) + free medical + free grants for the kids college education, how can you say 100k for a couple is rich????

For 1 person earning its rich but not together as a couple, completely different story.

The median household income in this country is 35,410 according to wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

Having 6 kids, sending half them to college all expenses paid and then whining about "struggling" is an insult to people really struggling in this country.

cson

Without trying to sound trite; you should really only have children if you can afford them. And with the progression of modern society, you don't stop paying for them after 18yrs as would have been the case. Rightly or wrongly 3rd level education is considered a right by the majority in this country thus children can cost you up until 22/23 in some cases.

Of course it's very prudent to get them to pay for a share of their 3rd level education by means of a part time job. In my opinion and experience, its a good experience for the child to be able to contribute to their education and expenses. Teaches discipline imo.

lmimmfn

CiaranC wrote: »

The median household income in this country is 35,410 according to wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

Having 6 kids, sending half them to college all expenses paid and then whining about "struggling" is an insult to people really struggling in this country.

er so the median is made up of 2 parents earning less than minimum wage or 1 earning ~30k paying next to no tax and the other partner getting the remainder in dole, i really dont think so, those figures are 4 years old, not only that its wikipedia, pretty much anyone can edit it.

Hows about whinging about those guys on the dole getting a fortune one the dole, like i said 40k a year with 3 kids + free healthcare, worth at least 15k, and a couple working their ass off for a measly 8k extra and theyre rich, cmon seriously

Anto123

What I don't understand is why a family with 6 children and an income of 100k wouldn't have set aside a bit of money for their children’s college. It's not a surprise expense; you knew this day was coming.

Even if you set aside €100 a month per child from the time they started secondary school you would have €7200 per child (excluding interest) by the time they started college. Assuming they did a standard 3 year degree that's €200 per child per month towards expenses. If you can afford to pay for them all to live away from home now then surely you could have saved at least that much when they were in school.

masteroftherealm

Oh seriously your on 100k you ARE NOT struggling as much as you would like to think you are. You chose to have kids, you chose to support those kids through college as opposed to letting them do part time work like all of the other students.
Those are decisions that you made, none forced you into those decisions, the situation is of your own making.

Vyse

In reading all these posts I know there obvioulsy a lot of people who are going to have a rough Christmas this year. Having grown up in Dublin during the 80s and having my father unemployed for 5 year means that I saw a few of these as a child. There were 5 of us in our family and the welfare each week was ~£80. We most certainly didn't have all the TV channels, any video player, a car etc. Mam made sure that we always got something for Christmas though and I can assure you we always had a Christmas dinner:)

While I do feel people's pain there seems to be a reluctance to calim any sort of responsibility for it. Sure everybody got caught up in the hype of the Celtic Tiger, spent and borrowed beyond their means, that doesn't mean that anybody else is responsible for it. It's called personal debt for a reason.

I hear the same thing from people in the private sector. "I need to be on €60,000 a year". No you need to be on €60,000 a year because you have borrowed beyond your means, didn't plan properly and now you find yourselves in financial difficulty. When I go to negotiate my salary for my job I bring my CV with me detailing my qualifications and experience, not my bank/ credit card statements showing my monthly debt.

Having had the experience of growing up on social welfare has made me very aware of my own financial situation. I have never borrowed beyond my needs and save each month just in case bad times come around again (touch wood). Living on €204/ week would seem very reasonable and managable to me. Debts aside I think this is extremely generous. Debts included, well that's a personal issue and nothing to do with the State.

AsianDub

Is it just me in thinking that you get penalised in this county for being successful?