Socail Welfare Budget Cut Protest

ghost_ie

cson wrote: »

Maybe you didn't but the Government have decided to socialise debt through NAMA thus you don't have a say in it and as such you suffer along with everyone else. And tbh Social Welfare levels in this country are a disincentive to find work imo. There ~20% inflated in my own opinion and with the cost of living down by around 6% I personally reckon welfare should be capped at €150.

I'll go along with a 20% cut in social welfare and public service pay when Cowen and his ministers (and the top civil servants) reduce their salaries to €50,000 per annum. The cuts to their salaries reported in today's papers still leave our Taoiseach on over €200,000 a year and his ministers on €190,000. Top civil servants will still earn over €200,000. Why should nurses, firemen, the gardai and the unemployed take cuts when even after cuts the people at the top are still earning multiples of the average industrial wage?

PeakOutput

ghost_ie wrote: »

I'll go along with a 20% cut in social welfare and public service pay when Cowen and his ministers (and the top civil servants) reduce their salaries to €50,000 per annum. The cuts to their salaries reported in today's papers still leave our Taoiseach on over €200,000 a year and his ministers on €190,000. Top civil servants will still earn over €200,000. Why should nurses, firemen, the gardai and the unemployed take cuts when even after cuts the people at the top are still earning multiples of the average industrial wage?

there are very good reasons for paying high wages to the 'people at the top' if you cant see that then there is really no point in debating with you any further at all

whatnext

My points on the issue, and its a bit of a commundrum, as I may find myself on the dole soon, for the 1st time.

1/ As long as there are people in fulltime employment at any level, min wage or otherwise saying that they would be better off on the dole, then, in my opinion its too high. These boards are full of posts where people claim they would be so.

2/ If i were to go onto the dole having lost my job, I have absolutly no idea how I will survive after my savings are gone, and the mortgage will make light work of them.

3/ from what I can see there a a few people on here saying it should be means tested or the likes, and while this may seem morally correct, I would take issue with the amount of PRSI ie Pay Related Social Insurance I have paid over the past 8 years. I have paid into an insurance scheme to allow me to collect dole if I lose my job, and this is the case for every PAYE worker with over 2 yrs consecutive contributions whether the earn E1m, E100k or E10k pa. Now the alternative is to say high earners can opt out of PRSI, after all most have private health insurance anyway, and a private pension, considerably higher than the OAP (in theory) but the problem with that is that they contribute by far in a way more in PRSI than they are likely to claim.

just my 2 cents worth, from someone staring at the prospects of losing my job soon

tudlytops

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You are not very forthcoming with the info, so apologies if my opinion is overly-assumptive.

I think many of us could equally sit at home and have a modest & full life, but we would not feel comfortable having other people pay for us.
If you can support yourself, independently, then knock yourself out.

But if you are claiming social welfare, because you are choosing not to work, do you honestly believe you have any moral ground to argue when it is being reduced, because those of us who are taxed to pay for your lifestyle no longer can afford to do so?

I find that insulting.

Absolutely agree with you.

Welfare should be looked at as a steeping stone, to help when things go wrong, not to stay on it for ones whole life.

But it's not their fault its the system that allows it so, and now people that worked all their life's but for reasons behold their control cannot do so are going to pay the price.

those that really can't work will continue being poor and will get worse, they don't deserve it.

As i said on another thread, make the unemployed attend a Job Centre from 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, if they don't show up they don't get paid, they would soon get jobs and those claiming and working, lets be honest there are loads of them, they could not do this if they had to attend a job centre.

and I mean every one, including the so called single parents, no excuses.

cson

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

The lack of creativity in our Government is astounding. We could be spending money building hospitals, schools and roads and actually use Irish workers instead of bringing in foreign company's to do the job, less people would be sitting at home on the dole and they would have more money to spend which would undoubtedly good for the economy and the country.

Quite frankly I think that cutting social welfare payments is disgusting, the money that people are expected to live on is downright disgraceful as is. I think you can tell a lot about a state on how they treat their dependents [disabled, elderly, children, those who can't find a job etc.], the way Brian Cowen and the rest of the government is treating our dependents is despicable and the lack of outrage is frightening.

On the underlined points; if Irish builders offered competitive rates they would get the contracts for public works and buildings. The reason they don't is that such contracts are tendered throughout Europe as a result of our membership and agreement to an open market thus you have a Spanish company building most of our motorways. Of course this is tempered by the fact that other EU countries may have a different minimum wage structure that is more 'competitive' for want of a better word than our one. What this means is that it's easy to make the call in theory for all the unemployed to go on the equivilant of the Famine Public Works and build all State roads/schools/hospitals etc but in reality its impractical and impossible. Perhaps as method of making people earn their social welfare it'd be somewhat palatable.

As regards your second point of it being downright disgraceful to live on. We have one of the largest, if not the largest weekly social welfare benefits in Europe. As has been pointed out for a rough comparison in the UK its circa €70, thats a disparity of €130 from our nearest neighbour and costs of living and related benefits attainable in the UK nothwithstanding, a social welfare difference of almost 200% is staggering to say the least.

ghost_ie wrote: »

I'll go along with a 20% cut in social welfare and public service pay when Cowen and his ministers (and the top civil servants) reduce their salaries to €50,000 per annum. The cuts to their salaries reported in today's papers still leave our Taoiseach on over €200,000 a year and his ministers on €190,000. Top civil servants will still earn over €200,000. Why should nurses, firemen, the gardai and the unemployed take cuts when even after cuts the people at the top are still earning multiples of the average industrial wage?

Brian Cowen's wage will be cut by €57,000 this year. It brings it into line with that of other State leaders in Europe and I would say that is fair. We must have an incentive to hold these jobs so that the best and brightest of our nation aspire and end up holding them. Cutting the wage of such a hugely important post to €50,000 will act as a disincentive to those with the ability to hold the post and largely lead to emigration of some very talented Irish people who would otherwise stay. Remember your Taoiseach and Ministers et al are public servants too and their wages are not exempt from cuts. They mooted 6% cut for the public sector willc ome off their wages too.

I'd be in favour of having the wages of top Civil Servants and Government Ministers etc broadly in line with average European levels minus roughly 10% to account for the economic downturn. The average head of State earns €220,000 therefore by my rhetoric the Taoiseach should take home €200,000. For the type of job it is, that's very fair in my opinion.

gaeilgegrinds

I was always under the impression that social welfare was there to tide someone over between jobs, not that it was a lifestyle choice. Am I incorrect in this?

cson

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I was always under the impression that social welfare was there to tide someone over between jobs, not that it was a lifestyle choice. Am I incorrect in this?

Very much so. Far from being a lifestyle choice - it's a career choice for a lot of people. I'm not going to generalise any particular location but I'm sure the analogy of a single unemployed mother living at home with two unemployed parents in a State sponsored council house is not too uncommon unfortunately. You have the crux of the problem with our public finances and welfare system right there - look at the amount of benefits that situation would throw up; Social Welfare x 3 each week, a State subsidised house, medical cards, fuel allowances, child benefit, single mothers allowance... I'm sure I've left out some there too which is frightening to say the least. You could quite realistically have a mind boggling situation where the parents of the single mother are claiming child benefit for her too! You're probably talking the guts of a €800 in benefits coming coming into that house each week for 3 adults and a child. And then people wonder why they have to take a pay cut.

tudlytops

Absolutely, but don't forget how many of these are actually working and claiming.

Clamp down on benefits and how they are paid, to whom and for how long.

Why should one be unemployed, decide that they want children they can't afford to bring up, gel a whole load of benefits for them, then decide they don't want to go back to work (that's if they ever worked in the first place).

Why is it that "single" perents aren't made to go to work?, after all when I had my children after maternity leave I went back to work.

That was my big mistake

Lemondrop kid

cson wrote: »

Very much so. Far from being a lifestyle choice - it's a career choice for a lot of people. I'm not going to generalise any particular location but I'm sure the analogy of a single unemployed mother living at home with two unemployed parents in a State sponsored council house is not too uncommon unfortunately. You have the crux of the problem with our public finances and welfare system right there - look at the amount of benefits that situation would throw up; Social Welfare x 3 each week, a State subsidised house, medical cards, fuel allowances, child benefit, single mothers allowance... I'm sure I've left out some there too which is frightening to say the least. You could quite realistically have a mind boggling situation where the parents of the single mother are claiming child benefit for her too! You're probably talking the guts of a €800 in benefits coming coming into that house each week for 3 adults and a child. And then people wonder why they have to take a pay cut.

tudlytops wrote: »

Absolutely, but don't forget how many of these are actually working and claiming.

Clamp down on benefits and how they are paid, to whom and for how long.

Why should one be unemployed, decide that they want children they can't afford to bring up, gel a whole load of benefits for them, then decide they don't want to go back to work (that's if they ever worked in the first place).

Why is it that "single" perents aren't made to go to work?, after all when I had my children after maternity leave I went back to work.

That was my big mistake

Ah well. Guess i'll try satire.
Ahem, wouldn't it be better if the kids of these single mums (aka single parents?) were simply put into Orphanages like the olden days? I mean ,this has proven to be very successful - or indeed into the care of the religious? Again, a sure winner.

Satire ends
Said it before, will say it again - stats have shown again and again when jobs are there everyone will work - who can work. We had Nil unemployment (as it is calculated, accn for transition etc) over the last number of years. Now the situation has changed due to greed of a few and suddenly its those pesky scroungers fault.
How did the PD's ever become extinct?

gcgirl

well said kid:) if we had jobs in this god forsaking country fair enough but as far as i'm concerned everything gone to **** here job wise !

oh well

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I was always under the impression that social welfare was there to tide someone over between jobs, not that it was a lifestyle choice. Am I incorrect in this?

its a lifestyle choice for some people definitely - I'd say we all know of people who choose not to work in recent years cos the dole or other payments were too high. There was no reason in recent years for anyone to be on welfare other than the sick. When ever but in the recent in the past did we see jobs of every single description being advertised in shop windows, free papers, etc, open days for employment in large factories. my BIL/SIL have never worked a day in his life in Ireland (even for cash in hand) but yet he manages to have a decent lifestyle, gets 1 or 2 holidays a year abroad. Often felt we were being fools for working hard, having decent enough life for a holiday most years, paying for medical insurance and pensions and trying to save a little money for the rainy day. BIL now giving out yards about his benefits being cut, his entitlement as he calls it.

Maebh

cson wrote: »

As regards your second point of it being downright disgraceful to live on. We have one of the largest, if not the largest weekly social welfare benefits in Europe. As has been pointed out for a rough comparison in the UK its circa €70, thats a disparity of €130 from our nearest neighbour and costs of living and related benefits attainable in the UK nothwithstanding, a social welfare difference of almost 200% is staggering to say the least.

Just to say, where are you getting the largest in Europe from? Please show me some figures.

And I have to add, cost of living and benefits attainable make a helluva difference, really, and should not be discounted.

ntlbell

Maebh wrote: »

Just to say, where are you getting the largest in Europe from? Please show me some figures.

:rolleyes:

name one country where the basic jsa is higher than ireland.

whatnext

Lemondrop kid wrote: »

Ah well. Guess i'll try satire.
Ahem, wouldn't it be better if the kids of these single mums (aka single parents?) were simply put into Orphanages like the olden days? I mean ,this has proven to be very successful - or indeed into the care of the religious? Again, a sure winner.

Satire ends
Said it before, will say it again - stats have shown again and again when jobs are there everyone will work - who can work. We had Nil unemployment (as it is calculated, accn for transition etc) over the last number of years. Now the situation has changed due to greed of a few and suddenly its those pesky scroungers fault.
How did the PD's ever become extinct?

Full employment is deemed to be an unemployment rate of between 2 and 7% depending on what economist you listen to. My old Economics Lecturer used a figure of 4.3% and I cant remember which Economist he was quoting, but is was broadly calculated as being 2% cant work, 2% will not work and 0.3% will be in transition ie between jobs.

For you to suggest we had 0% unemployment is ridiculous, and to be so closeted as to say that there are no people that choose to be unemployed is even more laughable

gcgirl

good auld ireland ! **** on genuine people ! hitler was right gas the lot of them anybody that earns below 50 k a year as for kids only keep the brightest ! Start on the oap's first the the unmarried mothers then go on from there

cson

Maebh wrote: »

Just to say, where are you getting the largest in Europe from? Please show me some figures.

And I have to add, cost of living and benefits attainable make a helluva difference, really, and should not be discounted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits

Loathe to use wikipedia as a source but it gives quite a good synopsis of the Welfare benefits in similar countries and the citations used are accurate.

As I have said, compare to our nearest neighbour the UK. The unemployment benefit there is just shy of £65 per week. That's equal to €72 at the current exhange rate. Notwithstanding VAT and minimum wage discrepancies along with other factors, is Ireland really 183% more expensive to live in? There's no real need to answer that. I think that little snapshot comparision of welfare benefits will tell you all you need to know in deciding if our welfare is generous or not.

gcgirl wrote: »

good auld ireland ! **** on genuine people ! hitler was right gas the lot of them anybody that earns below 50 k a year as for kids only keep the brightest ! Start on the oap's first the the unmarried mothers then go on from there

Come on, add something constructive to the argument. You can do better than childish posts like that.

gcgirl

think about rent gas electricity food phone line all more expensive than anywhere else really! you could fill your freezer in england for 15 pound, same with france, they have a far better health service than Ireland , education has gone to crap in this country also, to anyone under the age of 30 with no ties get out of the country cos this is a sinking ship!

tudlytops

Lemondrop kid wrote: »

Ah well. Guess i'll try satire.
Ahem, wouldn't it be better if the kids of these single mums (aka single parents?) were simply put into Orphanages like the olden days? I mean ,this has proven to be very successful - or indeed into the care of the religious? Again, a sure winner.

Drama, drama, drama.

Lemondrop kid wrote: »

Satire ends
Said it before, will say it again - stats have shown again and again when jobs are there everyone will work - who can work. We had Nil unemployment (as it is calculated, accn for transition etc) over the last number of years. Now the situation has changed due to greed of a few and suddenly its those pesky scroungers fault.
How did the PD's ever become extinct?

There was never 0% unemployment, and the nr were low, because single perents arent counted, disabled or sick aren't counted, people in FAS courses aren't counted, but guess what they were all unemployed, some by choice some because they couldn't work or no one will employed them.

I was a single parent until my daughter turn 7 so i know what's like and I still don't feel anything for them.

I worked since the age of 18, paid my own way through night school and raised my kids, i was only 19 when my daughter was born, never though of going into welfare, asking for cots, prams,etc.

They can stop crying and do something about it.

And there is still work out there, not nice cossy well paid jobs, but work

Darragh29

Lunar_Wire wrote: »

Hi,
Just wondering if there are any plans for a protests on budget day.
Surely this Government should be out now!
I'm willing to take a cut in my welfare when this crowd are out. I can't understand why they're still there. If running the state costs €400 million per week, then an election will only be a fraction of a weeks debt. They should loose their jobs through incompetence
Being on soc wel. I did not contribute to the current mess. I did not purchase houses. I did not borrow massive sums of money. Can anyone still claim that this was irresponsible?

I fully agree with you, you should be out protesting, not just on one particular day, but EVERY SINGLE DAY, but not because this government are cutting your dole, BUT BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T A PLAN TO GET YOU BACK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life...

tudlytops

cson wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits

Loathe to use wikipedia as a source but it gives quite a good synopsis of the Welfare benefits in similar countries and the citations used are accurate.

As I have said, compare to our nearest neighbour the UK. The unemployment benefit there is just shy of £65 per week. That's equal to €72 at the current exhange rate. Notwithstanding VAT and minimum wage discrepancies along with other factors, is Ireland really 183% more expensive to live in? There's no real need to answer that. I think that little snapshot comparision of welfare benefits will tell you all you need to know in deciding if our welfare is generous or not.



Come on, add something constructive to the argument. You can do better than childish posts like that.

But in the UK rent allowance, called housing benefit is higher in same case one pays no rent at hall, and they have other benefits that are added to the unemployment benefit, they don't leave on €72 euro and that is it.

The benefits in Ireland are among the best in Europe, we here have no idea how lucky we are.

Do you know the min wages in Portugal is €500 a month's and rent's in Lisbon can be as high as in Dublin, try living with that, and they have no council housing.

tudlytops

Darragh29 wrote: »

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life...

Problem is that so many want the fish, but they don't want to catch it

gcgirl

Darragh29 wrote: »

I fully agree with you, you should be out protesting, not just on one particular day, but EVERY SINGLE DAY, but not because this government are cutting your dole, BUT BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T A PLAN TO GET YOU BACK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life...

Your a man after my own heart!!
If we had jobs we would be in a far better place!

cson

tudlytops wrote: »

But in the UK rent allowance, called housing benefit is higher in same case one pays no rent at hall, and they have other benefits that are added to the unemployment benefit, they don't leave on €72 euro and that is it.

We have rent allowance too. By and large the benefits in the UK are similar to Ireland thus leaving us back in the scenario where in Newry you have to live on €72/week and 30 mins down the road this becomes €204.

gcgirl

tudlytops wrote: »

But in the UK rent allowance, called housing benefit is higher in same case one pays no rent at hall, and they have other benefits that are added to the unemployment benefit, they don't leave on €72 euro and that is it.

The benefits in Ireland are among the best in Europe, we here have no idea how lucky we are.

Do you know the min wages in Portugal is €500 a month's and rent's in Lisbon can be as high as in Dublin, try living with that, and they have no council housing.

Families live together in Spain/Portigal!!
Also we have a high cost of living in this glorious Shiithole!
But we have had the whole council house thing for yrs and you do have to pay rent to live in them maybe you think that a weeks staying in an holiday apartment is what people actually pay is prob less! a 2 bed apartment is 300/350 in Lyon France! thats what my bro was paying!

gcgirl

also you have a better chance of reaching the age of 25 if you happen to be a cf sufferer in Belfast! do you pay 60 euro to see a gp up there nope, every thing is paid regardless! chearper vat ect ect!! lower cost of living!

cson

gcgirl wrote: »

also you have a better chance of reaching the age of 25 if you happen to be a cf sufferer in Belfast! do you pay 60 euro to see a gp up there nope, every thing is paid regardless! chearper vat ect ect!! lower cost of living!

We have a thing called the medical card here in the Republic. I'm not sure if you know about it, but it pays for any doctors fees or hospital fees or medicine you might need.

Darragh29

tudlytops wrote: »

Problem is that so many want the fish, but they don't want to catch it

I don't agree, I couldn't count on two hands, people I know of who are up to and able to create employment for themselves, they need assistance, leadership and also access to funding.

But these people may as well be standing in a puddle of their own p*ss for as long as this government is in office. There are a small core of people who are "welfare class" people, who will be on welfare all of their lives, but the majority of people I know who are unemployed at the moment, are dying to get back to work. They are happy to try their hand at their own enterprise but are a bit fazed by it. All for the want of some leadership... Jesus Christ, a solicitor running the country, can you imagine anything more dangerous???

cson

Darragh29 wrote: »

Jesus Christ, a solicitor running the country, can you imagine anything more dangerous???

What, as opposed to a teacher or a county councillor?

tudlytops

gcgirl wrote: »

Families live together in Spain/Portigal!!
Also we have a high cost of living in this glorious Shiithole!
But we have had the whole council house thing for yrs and you do have to pay rent to live in them maybe you think that a weeks staying in an holiday apartment is what people actually pay is prob less! a 2 bed apartment is 300/350 in Lyon France! thats what my bro was paying!

No they don't, unfortunately that is not the case any more, I know it looks nice on TV but it's not like that in real life.

I am Portuguese (i suppose now I'm a forener so I won't have most of an opnion), I've been here for 12 years and was in the UK for 10 before that, nottalking about holiday rent.


My sister earnes €900 euro per month and that is a good wage, but pays €500 rent for a bedsit.

As for rents in the council, you call that rent, they are ridiculously low.

gcgirl

cson wrote: »

We have a thing called the medical card here in the Republic. I'm not sure if you know about it, but it pays for any doctors fees or hospital fees or medicine you might need.

yes but if your over the threshold by 50cent you wont get the medical card look at the wider picture, same person goes to see a gp for nothing in the north, you only pay for the prescription! its a lot wider in the broad picture than saying ah look they can survive on x amount of money different country's completely!
You could bring in Taiwan if you want but you cant compare!