Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

I’m leaving this thread now as I don’t see much point and the fundamentals need spelling out.

No major political party is committed to the state as it is and consequently Defence will continue to suffer as there will be no underlying vision.

That vision will not be possible until two things happen. First, the Protocol issue is settled either with a UK re-entry to single market, a land border, an away from border border or Ireland accepting a sea border between it and the EU. How long is a piece of string?

Second, until a border poll is held and won or lost there will be no vision possible for the 26 county state. The chances of such being held let alone won, (the Protocol is actually strengthening the union as NI has dual access) in the foreseeable are nil given that Scotland is agitating for another referendum and no Tory PM will preside over the break up of the UK.

Which brings me back to the lack of commitment to the state. During 2021-25 the govt has committed to ringfenced spending of €500 million on the shared island initiative. All of which is supposedly about integrating an all island economy and society while two distinct jurisdictions exist. Quite simply Irish politics continues to kick the can down the road and refuses to face BREXIT realities.

The vision at the moment seems to be to denigrate those who fought and won independence while turning a blind eye to the terrorism that founded NI and to seek to ingratiate with unionism. The Chair of the Defence committee is on the record as saying RIC were “murdered” in the war of independence. So given that what is the vision? It’s clear that the current govt seeks a closer integration with the UK while maintaining EU membership. From all this I believe the vision is to be a Defence dependent of the UK, to apply the GFA to the entire country if reunited as a “shared state” (FFG has floated the idea of unionists permanently in cabinet) and Protocolise the island and retain full EU membership and the status of an independent state at the UN. In short, cakeism.

The DF will remain as an international peace keeping earner of political brownie points, emergency labour, parade theatre for political spin, and supported just enough to avoid political liabilities.

I hope I’m wrong and I await Cathal Berry’s analysis of what comes forward but right now if it walks like a duck etc etc.

Edit: The one possibility of a border poll is that if the Tories realise they will win it and use it to undermine Scottish independence.

Dohvolle

Blah blah blah whatever, bye.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119317039#Comment_119317039

The Occupation up North is a divergence but now is developing potential to crash all agreements , cross border meetings, and shared objectives for common amenities and assets. The Brexit project has given back to Unionism a reason for their leaders, to redline issues and harden their myriad not an inch views.

We must try to follow an EU related Defence plan and interact more closely with those that do not have anti-EU agendas. We could start by giving all our ships additional AD strengths and consider trialling an ASW system.

ancientmariner

Assuming with increased budgets, and an intention to stiffen up our Defences on land .sea, and in the air, it is necessary to sketch in some proposals for consideration. Our 6 OPV's need to add to their main gun outfit by adding on 2 single 30mm auto gun systems as 20mm replacements. We can improve AD by adding on central aft a SIMRAD/Mistral missile system ( 4 loaded missiles per mount ) Mistral spares to be carried below decks. Investigate carriage and use of a drone weapon system. Improve radars as necessary. Consider Phalanx systems 2 for MRV and completely assess for other systems allied to containerisation. Ask the question can the MRV keep a small Task group at sea fully supplied for a 4/6 week deployment. Maybe MRV plus 2 OPV's.

realitykeeper

Firstly, Ireland should be a neutral country in word and deed. Secondly, we should be a friendly country to all.

Next, I suggest Micheal Martin and the rest of the cabal appologize to our Russian friends for their beligerent attitide, and ask our Russian friends to patrol our skies to keep the RAF from infringing on out territory. Alternatively, we should stop making an issue of Russia going about it`s business and decline any pretense the UK want to use to infringe on our airspace.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578670#Comment_120578670

The Russians aren’t friends of anyone, not even themselves.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578670#Comment_120578670

Well thats my mind made up about anything else you may have to say. Good night.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578670#Comment_120578670

How much is the Kremlin paying you Komrade? Also is it Rubles or Wodka?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120601620#Comment_120601620

Sadly, some do it for free...

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578670#Comment_120578670

Neutral means neutral so we can't be friendly to everyone, plus how can we be neutral if Russia are patroling our airspace.

Go back to predicting the doom of the world and a future of trading turnips. Reality 🤔🤔🤔😁

realitykeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636383#Comment_120636383

Well I disagree. A neutral country should be friendly to all countries. That does not mean taking sides. It has already been established Russian cargo planes passed near our airspace recently on it on route to west Africa, but did not encroach on it. Ireland`s participation in sanctioning Russia makes Ireland a non neutral country and therefore a legitimate target. If anything does happen, I will blame the Irish government and not our Russian friends.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637479#Comment_120637479

We know you will..we know.

Zico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637479#Comment_120637479

We're a kind of Irish neutral. Read up on our history a bit to understand that.

'Legitimate target' is a phrase we're familiar with though.

The threat from Russia is real and in the absence of our own means we're relying on the RAF and Royal Navy just to patrol out waters and airspace. That Apple money could be used to build infrastructure which would reduce our reliance on their protection.

We can't even say we're militarily neutral with a straight face right now.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661794#Comment_120661794

We don’t need “the Apple money”, there’s plenty of money going to be available over the next few years, what we need is a public and political will to address our issues.

tinytobe

What I don't understand, is that of all Euopean nations the Irish must surely understand how it feels like being occupied and dominated by another nation in history. There was probably no other nation in Europe which has been under the rule of another country for such a long time.

So why constantly underinvest in the armed forces? 6 Navy ships out of 8 not in service and the constant denial of fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Whether neutrality or not, Ireland needs to do more.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167505#Comment_121167505

Perhaps because post 1922 we became conditioned to the UK providing the majority of our protection from external attack, while the National army focused on controlling the internal attackers. The Treaty Ports kept the UK in our defence game until just before WW2, after which we still benefited from their proximity.

It'd been in the UK's best interests to protect its flanks.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168650#Comment_121168650

Also of course the fact that the Treaty gave naval matters to the RN explicitly (and looking at the minutes if the RAF had turned up and asked we would have had RAF bases here as well), which gave Finance a wonderful excuse to say no to any funding of defence (like when they killed off the first "navy"). After that factor in the state of the Irish economy versus any meaningful/capable capability and demands on Finance for every other bit of spending for the nation and it's not hard to see how the situation developed.

Not sure how you would have materially changed it?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168650#Comment_121168650

It may be that these post 1922 roots are in the Irish civil war? Didn't the British support the newly formed Irish defence forces with guns, other equpiment and even airplanes, and even threatened to invade Ireland, if the Irish government wasn't doing anything against the Anti Treaty forces?

Whatever the reason, it's not up to today's challenges anymore.

California Dreamer

🚨 Breaking: the High Court orders a full hearing into Ireland’s arrangements allowing UK RAF aircraft enter Irish airspace for purposes of defending against security threats - hearings had been sought by senator @GCraughwell on constitutional grounds. @VirginMediaNews

millb

"because the Irish navy has no sonar capabilities" can't put a ship out 12 miles either.

Russian submarine 'chased' from Cork Harbour by British navy (irishexaminer.com)

zone 1

never had sonar in first place DOD only focus was FP

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121488514#Comment_121488514

The corvettes and Eithne would have had at stages in their lifespan, don’t think any of the rest did?

Dohvolle

Eithne was retro-fitted with a side scan for the AIr India black box search operation, but she was fitted with a hull mounted sonar also, which was removed when it became obsolete, and never replaced.

The rest have only had basic depth finders.

Even the Corvette's ASW gear was all removed long before they left service.

zone 1

really sad state to be honest but thats the DOD for you

Markcheese

How big a deal would it be to equip the p60s with either a towed aray or sonar buoys ?

The sonar buoys can feed back to a plane or helicopter , so the equipment doesnt have to be huge , (although no major size constraint on a ship )

There'd need to be a will to buy ,maintain and use the equipment though ,

Although in honesty - they were entitled to be there - international waters , as were the british navy -

The british couldnt really do much if the sub decided not to move ,

Who alerted the Royal navy that the sub was there in the first place ?

Its a bit of a game really -

Dohvolle

The sonar is the easy part, the problem is are our ships designed to emit minimal hull and prop noise themselves to make them worth fitting?

Easy enough to mount a bolt on towed sonar aft on the P60s, but you need it to be plumbed into the ships command centre to be of tactical use, and with the demise of P31, none of our fleet have a citadel.

The question is though, did this happen at all?

greenpilot

Again, we see another article in the UK Defence Journal describing how the RAF had to send a P8 out off the Cork Coast for a rescue because our brand, spanking new, C-295, was " unavailable ".

At the end of the article, it is stated that we clearly do not take our security seriously, if we cannot even man and dispatch the very aircraft to which this mission fits and for which it was purchased.

It is complete nonesence to state that we do not have the money to spend on our military. It is now a case of "We Must!". Even the most cash-strapped countries in Europe can manage to protect their airspace and waters. We absolutely cannot rely on the UK any longer. They themselves are in serious trouble, militarily, and their press are starting to circle the wagons when it comes to helping us.

We live on what is, and will be in the next conflict, the most strategic island in Europe, and we couldn't even tackle a swarm of drones, never mind a Russian sub messing with the under-sea cables, or a wayward aircraft. Christ, we don't even have a primary radar.

I visited the Aviation Museum in Shannon recently, to see the remnants of our once-capable aircraft, ( they're all there, from the Vampire, the Fouga to the Warrior and C-172). While there, I met some retired ground crew who worked with the Vampire and the pilot of the vampire that was the subject of the only air-to-air photograph of the type.

These men were so saddened at the neglect and ignorance of successive governments towards our armed forces. I don't know if its a generational thing. Maybe it's because those in our late 50's lived through turbulent times in Ireland and the armed forces were always front and centre in the news. Christ, I even remember the soldiers in Banks across the country, or the armoured cars escorting the IIE trucks. I even brought Scout Troops to Baldonnel on regular occasions. I don't know what it is, but we need to wake the hell up quickly.