Poor Cavity Wall beads?

abbey2000

Hello,

My partner's house was built 5 years ago, it is a 3 bed bungalow. The house is very cold and does not hold the heat in. We had a BER assessment done, we were told that the attic insulation was ok.

We had been interested in getting the cavity walls insulated, but he told us that was already done. He poked in around the ESB box and pulled out a few beads. He said that the house was already filled with low quality beads, and there was nothing we could do now.

We just want the house to be warmer. We probably will put extra insulation in the attic. But is there anything we can do about the cavity walls now? Is there any way to replace the beads that are there with better ones?

Or has anyone any other suggestions as to how we can make the place retain the heat better?

holdfast

What was the rating for the house?, did your assessor tell you about air tightness testing and or using thermal imaging to test your house. Hope your assessotr did not just take the mony and run, could be a case of the house is losing heat through unplanned ventilation, drafts , incorrectly installed or missing insulation

recedite

Do not replace the beads; the better ones are only marginally better.
Use external insulation if you really want a good job, and can afford it, otherwise leave it.

Smcgie

holdfast wrote: »

What was the rating for the house?, did your assessor tell you about air tightness testing and or using thermal imaging to test your house. Hope your assessotr did not just take the mony and run, could be a case of the house is losing heat through unplanned ventilation, drafts , incorrectly installed or missing insulation

Or maybe if you read the post its because the cavity is full of low quality insulation as stated and its now up to the homeowner to upgrade the house by either means of External Insulation or Dry-lining etc. Why would you spend money on TI or APT if you already know the issue with low quality EPS beads?

To many assessors telling homeowners to spend money on tests like APT that are uncalled for when the problem is clearly in front of their noses. Awful post IMO except for the bit i highlighed in Blue.

holdfast

OK smcgie what would you do? I did read the post but it may be a case that one type of bead is 0.033Wm-1K-1 versus 0.040Wm-1K-1. There is a difference but not enough to account for the op saying the house is cold IMO. Do we know if the assessor was competent ? Sounds like weak excuse to me ??????

I was at a house last week over eighty thousand euro spent on it and it was leaking like a sieve, no other of telling than doing the test. It can be a waste of money just dryling or external insulation if identify the weak areas in the construction and deal with it as well.

If the assessor says there is insulation present how do you know if done right or do you advise going and other works that would cost more than the cost of such test to clearly identify the problem. The more knowledge one has the better you are able to provide a solution which is more economical. Both drylining and external insulation are costly, maybe there is just insulation around the meter box and doors. Happen a lot of time during the boom when guys rip off people or the house has diamonds where the insulation was installed incorrectly. Maybe just pumping the areas that are missing might do. The cost of the tests would be in the region of 400 euro. But go ahead and tell the op to pay thousands, live through the disruption etc.

Yes I do the tests but I would never offer them to someone if the answer could be clearly visible. But if the assessor says the house meet the building regs in 2004 it should perform better. I am sorry I could not highlight any of your post as been worthwhile.

Smcgie

To an existing homeowner an APT is a scrap of paper that is of no use. Yes its going to identify areas in an existing dwelling that are going to need attention.. But this again relates back to external wall insulation or dry lining.

I cannot understand why an assessor would recommend further expence to a client through an APT unless they have an alternative motive.

What situations have you come across in an existing dwelling were you believe charging an extra €400 is plausible?

blindman

holdfast wrote: »

maybe there is just insulation around the meter box and doors. Happen a lot of time during the boom when guys rip off people

Without seeing a thermal scan, I consider this likely. Whole housing estates have been built without proper insulation, except where people might look.

Smcgie

blindman wrote: »

Without seeing a thermal scan, I consider this likely. Whole housing estates have been built without proper insulation, except where people might look.

Exactly a Thermal scan. Not an APT

holdfast

An APT test is just as useful as thermal imaging if not more and is a good tool for both new dwellings and existing dwellings. Just because it is only in regs to test new dwellings does not make the test worthwhile to test existing dwellings. The worst part of this is I guess you are an assessor and to dismiss such tools amazes me!!!. How many test have you carried out or seen of either ? Please answer. If someone comes in and just give you a piece of paper after the test they have failed you not the test.
Where have I seen it been of benefit in the house that they spent 80 grand on external and internal insulation and still failed the APT test by a long shot. So what I learnt from that test is both don’t remedy the problem totally. If a test (APT) was done first day it would have shown up some of the design and construction problem in the existing house and provided information to provide a solution. I think that is a good example where the extra 400 euro would have worth it. It would have been better than a BER, that just a piece of paper and does not tell how the build is performing rather than how it should perform. There is no other motive for asking the client except give them the best advice based on facts. Rather than just throwing out an answer that you hope will cure all the problems. There are other cases that I know I have saved the client money by doing these tests rather than just telling him spend spend.

Firstly you came on saying both are not worth it, know it’s just APT in your last post !!!. You have in the past posted here looking for a thermal imagining camera for yourself. Stay on message if you don’t think they are worth it. Secondly you said I should read the post that it was poor beads did that seem likely to you for the really cold house.

Smcgie

Ok I'm not attacking the poster but the post. The fact that I have asked about a thermal image camera is nothing to do with this post.

My issue is with assessors who have access to APT equipment carrying out tests for no reason on existing dwelling. Look at the situation before you post a comment like "I hope the assessor just didn't take the money and run". Its inconsiderate and I could easy just say "I hope he didn't take an extra €400 off you for an APT because he couldn't identify a better area to spend the money"

Each to their own but an APT is a last resort in upgrading an existing dwelling, and because you have this trade under your belt does not justify belittling Assessors.

holdfast

The thing about my service i would go into an exisitng build and say you need the APT, but for sure I would not go we need a ber and then say after its poor beads go and spend big. What I said was the assessor should have provide more options to the client.

Look the only guys ripping off people are the assessor who have no creditable background or knowlege dont you think so . These are the guys that come out and say its a poor bead, you should get a ber done, I think an APT is no good. Even though 30% of the loss from a build is accounted for through drafts etc. Take a standard build on the deap and see what difference improving the air tightness by 30% say. I would think its worth fighting for. To have all the facts allow one to make a sound engineering assesment of the problem/ solution or do you think you dont need all that info.

by the way the 400 euro is all in thermal, apt and assessment of the house.

Can you please answer

Have you seen either a apt or thermal imaging survey to be able to comment on how usefull they are ?
Why do you think its the last resort to do an apt ?

recedite

On the subject of AP testing existing dwellings that have 100mm diameter vents in every habitable room.
Presumably the vents are temporarily sealed up during the test, while any smaller leaks are discovered. What happens then afterwards,would you recommend sealing up the small holes while reopening the large vents?
BTW I'm not trying to get at anyone here, it's a genuine question. I can see that APT is absolutely critical for anyone wanting to install heat recovery ventilation.

holdfast

Yes the vents are sealed. All other unplanned ventilation should be sealed up. the reality is yes the vent should be left open, they are designed to meet the building regs, now if you are saying there is more design requirments to meet the regs you could seal these. ( that tend to happen where self builds occurred) Ventiltion is very important and the more insulation we add to houses the more critical the need to meet the recommended guidlines. any building that is too air tight is as much a problem as a leaky house.

muffler

holdfast wrote: »

any building that is too air tight is as much a problem as a leaky house.

Im confused

Poor Uncle Tom

Please keep the posts civil and remember as stated 'attack the post not the poster', thank you. It's interesting too BTW.

holdfast

sorry muffler i should have said a house that is too air tight without hrv or enough planned ventilation. The problem is more in terms of health rahter than energy lost.

Bhoypaul

muffler wrote: »

Im confused

A well sealed house requires ventilation to prevent moisture build up that can cause smells, dampness and even moulds.

Bhoypaul

The suggested solution to add external insulation as the cavity insulation isn’t working is not the way to go.
A 5 year old house with adequate attic insulation and additional wall insulation should not perform the way you have described. It should be fairly easy to heat if it has an adequate heating system installed.

I would be sceptical that there are actually beads in the cavity.

A house that is 5 years old and has cavity walls would have these walls constructed with expanded polystyrene (EPS) boards within the cavity tight to the inner layer. This would achieve a U-value of 0.55W/m2°C.

It’s highly unlikely that the original builder would not have closed the cavity with the addition of pumped beads. Adding the beads would bring you down to a U-value of 0.3W/m2°C.
Therefore either the previous owner added the insulation, or it’s possible that the beads the assessor found came from ragged edges of the EPS.

Can you check with the previous owner if the cavity was filled?
Look in the attic for beads. They can spill into the attic when being pumped.
Look for the evidence of regular drill holes around the perimeter, see the attached picture (although they might be painted over and be more difficult to pick up than on the picture) .

Adding external insulation will cost €10-20k. While the SEI says that the payback is approximately 25 years.

I presume your description of the house’s thermal performance is in comparison to other similar houses. There is either a problem with your heating system or else you have large areas of heat loss that shouldn’t be there: i.e. missing insulation or poorly sealed areas around windows etc.
Are all your radiators heating up across the full surface (not just at the top)? Unless you are in a super insulated house if you don’t add enough heat it will be cold.

If the heating system is good then carrying out a thermal image along with an air pressure test can pinpoint the problem of missing insulation and/or poor workmanship. I don’t do these tests but I believe you can get a combined
test from a number of people. It won’t solve your problem but might show where it is.

Smcgie

Going back to the OP:

He said that the house was already filled with low quality beads, and there was nothing we could do now.

We just want the house to be warmer. We probably will put extra insulation in the attic. But is there anything we can do about the cavity walls now?

The OP has a heat issue with a house that has its cavity filled with what an assessor has claimed as 'low quality' insulation. Under what terms would you justify carrying out an APT on such a dwelling?

Bhoypaul

Smcgie wrote: »

Going back to the OP:


The OP has a heat issue with a house that has its cavity filled with what an assessor has claimed as 'low quality' insulation. Under what terms would you justify carrying out an APT on such a dwelling?

My suggestion was to check a number of item first before doing a combined APT and IRI as the last item if required.

I questioned if there were beads in the first place.
How would you determine "Low quality beads..." from a visual inspection of some found in the ESB box?

I'm sure there are people who can do this.

However my main point is that a house with a fully insulated cavity will have walls with U-values of approx 0.3. That beats the 2008 regulations. It shouldn't be difficult to heat (as neither should a house with wall having a U-value of 0.55). So if the heating system is not the problem then there is a strong possibility that the walls are not what they are suppose to be

Smcgie

I agree with your questing of the assessor for him/her to state that the cavity is full (regardless of quality) then say there's nothing that can be done is wrong.

But what I don't agree with is the idea of carrying out an APT on such a dwelling were the money can be spent improving the fabrics of the building instead of more useless information.

I'm not knocking APT, I think its a great scheme. But I don't justify doing it in the event or a retro-fit. Its a bit like an assessor telling a homeowner to upgrade windows to triple glazing.. YES its an improvement but the money can be spent more efficiently elsewhere.

holdfast

Smcgie you have not answer my questions, and if you think its the same as telling its the same as getting triple galsing shows how little you know about building physics. please please stop. you were happy enough to go ahead and tell him spend thousands where doing an air tightness test and locating areas of problems, which are low cost to reduced the problem and make a faster payback. It might not be the first stop, but you are way out of line to think its a waste of money. I think this requires a poll on this.

Smcgie

What I ment was upgrading from double glazing to triple in my Example

Well put yourself in the homeowner/clients shoes.. Would you spend the €400 on an APT during retro-fitting?

Smcgie

holdfast wrote: »

Smcgie you have not answer my questions, and if you think its the same as telling its the same as getting triple galsing shows how little you know about building physics. please please stop. you were happy enough to go ahead and tell him spend thousands where doing an air tightness test and locating areas of problems, which are low cost to reduced the problem and make a faster payback. It might not be the first stop, but you are way out of line to think its a waste of money. I think this requires a poll on this.

Also (without getting personal) please proof read your post.

holdfast

yes i would have no problem as it could recuce there heating bill by a third. with say 500-600 euro test included. As the inital service did not determine the problem i think it be the only resonable option rather than taking a stab in the dark with add more insulation.Information is not knowledge as a little know scientist said once but the more you have of it the better able you can make a sound solution. Equally could you justifiy adding more insualtion for say five grand or get a plumber to go over the heating system when it may not be the problem.

Please find time to read the links I have provided.
http://www.earth.org.uk/testing-a-house-for-air-leaks.html
http://www.greenbuildingpress.co.uk/archive/airtight_building.php

Sorry for the grammer and spelling, I always struggle with it. You can answer the questions if you want. Just want to see where and how you justify such sweeping statements. Simple

holdfast

Here is post and poll on the importance of air tightness in new houses. Can’t see why its importance should be reduced in existing refits. You are after all trying to improve the house and get it to perform at its best. Be it with or without HRV. Its a required test even if houses are been upgraded too in the regs.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63282434#post63282434[/URL]

Smcgie

it could recuce there heating bill by a third. with say 500-600 euro test included.

Can you be a bit more explicit?


Basically this thread is turning into a BER Assessor V APT. In my beliefs i have stated that the money is well spent elsewhere, the BER Assessment highlights areas such as (for example) draught strips on windows, controllable vents, chimneys , window specification etc etc

These can then be taken into account to improve the efficiency of the home without large costs. eg:

1) Fit draught extruders to all windows & doors
2) Service your boiler
3) Draught Lobby etc etc etc

What i am trying to highlight is that there are so many other ways of saving money on heat efficiency than spending the money on an Air Pressure Test that will be of a lesser need.

Its money that does not need to be spent in a retro-fit. But of course as its your trade you are going to sell it to the homeowner.

muffler

OK lads. Lots of good points but its turning into a 2 man show and going off topic.

The OP posted what seemed like something that people could could give a simple reply to but this hasnt been the case. Stay on topic please and if you wish to discuss the merits of particular methods then please open a new thread.

Poor Uncle Tom

I think both of you have now made your points. Let's not exhaust ourselves going around in circles. New information for the OP from here on out please.

muffler

2 mods replies for the price of one.

Where would you get better service than that











Oh and I beat you PUT by 0.7824 secs.

Poor Uncle Tom

Yeah, but my reply was better.....naa, naa...:D

Smcgie

I seem to be keeping you two busy

But i think all in all there are two good arguments. I can see both sides of the argument.

Thanks guys. I'm no Mystic Meg but i bet that padlock buttons tempting you's :pac:

Poor Uncle Tom

It need'nt, if you'd leave things be, or bring something new to the table....;)

Smcgie

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It need'nt, if you'd leave things be, or bring something new to the table....;)

It must be like Templemore over in the C&P Mod forum! Muffler has ya's all well schooled :eek:

Tea and cakes in the boardroom....and meanwhile the OP's house is getting colder...

holdfast

Still not answer the question and the thread has gone to is it worthwhile getting a APT test when refurbishing a build. The answer is yes. It’s not the ber assessor vs APT. I have only mentioned the pros of the test. How do you know the test will be of lesser value you do not understand it or mostly likely never seen one. What points you have handed out there i as kind of advice I would hope most people would already know. What they bring you or I in to do is give more than that.

Take 400 for the test and 100 on filler tapes etc and give yourself 100 for your time and fill all the areas of air loss and that coast 600 euro. Take it a house loses 30% of its heat from drafts and the air tightness test finds and solves 1/2 of the problem. Say that is equal to a saving of 225 euro on a normal heating bill of 1500 per year. Pay back in less than three. Also unwanted ventilation also bring moisture in the house and on to insulation thus reducing its effectiveness by a third so more saving. These are point are already to stated in the links I have posted.

I think the only thing debate is doing is increasing my posts. As you do not want to admit that it is worth doing an APT, where all evidence in published papers and advice by professionals recommend the test. The worst of all you are doing from a base where you have not experience or knowledge to comment on it.

holdfast

Glad this has ended.

MicktheMan

abbey2000 wrote: »

Hello,

My partner's house was built 5 years ago, it is a 3 bed bungalow. The house is very cold and does not hold the heat in. We had a BER assessment done, we were told that the attic insulation was ok.

We had been interested in getting the cavity walls insulated, but he told us that was already done. He poked in around the ESB box and pulled out a few beads. He said that the house was already filled with low quality beads, and there was nothing we could do now.

We just want the house to be warmer. We probably will put extra insulation in the attic. But is there anything we can do about the cavity walls now? Is there any way to replace the beads that are there with better ones?

Or has anyone any other suggestions as to how we can make the place retain the heat better?

To the OP:
Your house is a bungalow and the cavity is filled with loose bead. Did your assessor check how full (of beads) the cavity is? I live in a bungalow and the previous owner had it pumped with loose bead. Due to wind etc, this bead flowed/excaped etc and as a result there was a 2 ft void all around the house in the cavity where there was not bead - exactly where you want the bead to be as heat rises after all. I took out the remaining bead and replaced it with a better bonded bead product.

How airtight/draughty is your house? Most heating systems work by heating the air and if this air can easily escape from the building then the house wont retain heat very well. Depending on the structure of the house and workmanship of the builder, air can infiltrate from a large number of areas. A "well insulated house" can still perform very poorly and be cold if there is excessive air infiltration throughout the house.

My advice is to know where the problems are before spending your money on stuff that "might" or "probably will" make the house better. If you google "Heal Loss Survey" or something like that then will find a lot more info on this.

holdfast

micktheman dont start it again. you should have not mentioned apt.

smcgie take over:).

muffler

Just a word of caution here. Moderator's instructions are not to be ignored on this thread or anywhere on the forum. Play nice and you will be fine but when someone deliberately posts in defiance of a mods instructions then their future participation in this forum is put in jeopardy.

I have issued one infraction and Id rather leave it at that.

Bhoypaul

It was stated that the debate was getting into a BER Assessment v APT agruement. That was incorrect.
The BER assessment can't take into account poor workmanship that is hidden from view. An IR image and APT can pick these up.

In my previous post I have recommended to the OP a course of investigative actions that he should undertake.
Any feedback or comments on this would be of interest.

muffler

The following is the nuts and bolts of the original topic. Stick to that please.

abbey2000 wrote: »

The house is very cold ...............We had a BER assessment done, we were told that the attic insulation was ok.
.........cavity already filled with low quality beads..........anything we can do about the cavity walls now? Is there any way to replace the beads

Candy11

Hi guys
need some advice on Cavity wall insulation. I was having my walls done today and when I asked for the workmen to check the lower part of the walls by drilling a hole, there was no bead which I thought there would be if the beads had completely filled the cavity. Also I have a dormer and the guys wouldn't go up to the top of the A because their ladder wouldn't reach - should I insist on this (I think I should).

In one Eve the beading came through into the eve but in another eve it didn't which lead me to believe the beading wasn't complete either.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

Candy

SilverBER

Candy11 wrote: »

Hi guys
need some advice on Cavity wall insulation. I was having my walls done today and when I asked for the workmen to check the lower part of the walls by drilling a hole, there was no bead which I thought there would be if the beads had completely filled the cavity. Also I have a dormer and the guys wouldn't go up to the top of the A because their ladder wouldn't reach - should I insist on this (I think I should).

In one Eve the beading came through into the eve but in another eve it didn't which lead me to believe the beading wasn't complete either.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

Candy

Are you having this work done through the SEI HES scheme?

Candy11

Yes we have applied for the grant. I spoke to a guy today that does the BER so he I asked him to assess the work afterwards with the usual technology.

SilverBER

Candy11 wrote: »

Yes we have applied for the grant. I spoke to a guy today that does the BER so he I asked him to assess the work afterwards with the usual technology.

If youve applied for the grant then SEI are the people to ring because if it isnt done correctly they wont issue the cheque

Bhoypaul

Candy11 wrote: »

.... Also I have a dormer and the guys wouldn't go up to the top of the A because their ladder wouldn't reach - should I insist on this (I think I should).

You can always judge good workmen by the quality of their tools and you don't get a more basic tool that a ladder.

Based on your post I would be extremely doubtful over the quality of the job they have carried out and their technical knowledge of what they were doing. To become an approved contractor on the HES schme all you have to do is demonstrate commercial viability not technical knowledge.

If you are not happy insist on a thermal image of the house. You will probably have to pay for this yourself but if it proves the work wasn't done correctly it will be worth it.
I don't carry them out, but you should find people who do any one of the BER directories like berassoc.ie or berdirectory.ie (assume this is within forum rules).

feckoffcrow

I know that in the posters case its a dormer but in the case of a regular house, is there any need or advantage in having cavity fill up to the apex of the gable wall?
Also, should this wall be capped off/sealed at the top? Mine isn't - and thats why i'm wondering.

Quiksilver

As muffler said, the basics of what was asked was the following.

The house is very cold ...............We had a BER assessment done, we were told that the attic insulation was ok.
.........cavity already filled with low quality beads..........anything we can do about the cavity walls now? Is there any way to replace the beads

To abbey2000, did the ber assessor inspect the cavity only at the meter box or did he drill an inspection hole?
You said your assessor pulled out some beads at the meter box. Did he show you this? What colour were they? If he said the cavity was filled with low quality beads that would lead me to think that there could be one of two materials used.
1. White polystyrene bead insulation.
Or
2. A pumped fiberglass insulation.
I have inspected several houses in limerick that have fiberglass installed and at the meter box it can look yellow balls of wool, similar to a large bauble of wool you can find on jumpers. Fiberglass insulation can compress over time and create voids in the insulation which will cause cold patches in the walls.

Saying that if either insulation was not installed properly their may be voids. During construction of the house if debris fell into the cavity(be it mortar, bottles, cans, rubbish ect.) this could disturb the flow of the bead being installed and create voids. Unfortunately this cannot be seen by installers. A thermal image would be a logical step as this should show up any voids. You should be able to get this done fairly cheap, you don't want a full assessment of the house and you may not need a full report written by the assessor. Just a quick look for voids in the insulation.

As for removing the insulation from the cavity, it can be done. would only recommend it for houses with fiberglass due to the deterioration of the material over time. The White polystyrene bead can be removed as well and replaced with the platinum bead. The question is, is the 10-20% increase in efficiency worth the €1000-3000 removal plus the €500-1000 installation of new insulation. In the case for the fiberglass i think it is but if you already have the White polystyrene bead i wouldn't be too sure, depends on how long you plan on living in the house.