Cats in other people's gardens

The Sweeper

Important point: cat = tiny, furry peanut brain.

sambuka41

Im always shocked by the treatment cats get,i cant tell anyone i have a cat without them responding with pure disgust. Its very upsetting to be honest,i love my cat and fear for how he is treated by people, he came back in once in pain,the vet thought he had been kicked,prob by a man as he became very scared of them very suddenly. I would love to be able to keep him where i know he is ok,and where he cant be a "nuisance" to others but realistically i cant.:(

He was a stray that adopted me, he will not be confined, it goes completely against his nature. Ive rescued him, been responsible and had him neutered so as to stop more stray cats, and im being called irresponsible cause he goes toilet outside.

Im sure my vet bills are higher than a dog owners, due to the abuse he has suffered while outside(both by ppl and other cats). So who has been paying my vet bills,even if i caught the man that kicked him, what could i do? Nothing!!! If he kicked a dog something could be done but because my baby is a cat i just have to accept it as part of this cultures hate for cats.

I cant deny him his nature and lock him in, nor can i build an area outside (i wish i could but i rent).

cianer

I've heard of pedigree cat breeders who have put up cat runs, it'd be easy to do and you could take it with you to your next house.

Unfortunately the only way to guarantee your cat's safety is to keep it inside - cars, dog and cruel people or just a given in this world, as much as we'd all like it to be otherwise.

seamus

sambuka41 wrote: »

I would love to be able to keep him where i know he is ok,and where he cant be a "nuisance" to others but realistically i cant.:(

Have you tried? Not getting at you, but I know of a number of people who have cats which reside entirely indoors and only leave with their owner, in a box (e.g. to go the vet's).

Some cats are suited to this, some are not, you would have to test an adopted cat's temperament before you can do this.

Your profile says you live in Rathmines - unfortunately, heavily urbanised areas are probably not the best place to have an "outdoor" cat as they are likely to come into contact with humans and other dangers on a frequent basis, notwithstanding that you will also get drunk people likely to do stupid things to your cats and the overall higher concentration of weirdos in cities.

sambuka41

seamus wrote: »

Have you tried? Not getting at you, but I know of a number of people who have cats which reside entirely indoors and only leave with their owner, in a box (e.g. to go the vet's).

Some cats are suited to this, some are not, you would have to test an adopted cat's temperament before you can do this.

Your profile says you live in Rathmines - unfortunately, heavily urbanised areas are probably not the best place to have an "outdoor" cat as they are likely to come into contact with humans and other dangers on a frequent basis, notwithstanding that you will also get drunk people likely to do stupid things to your cats and the overall higher concentration of weirdos in cities.

Yeah unfortunately i tried, i keep him in for 3 days around halloween every year and it is torture!!! I love him to bits but he has some amount of energy and as much as i would love to change his temperament slightly i cant!! He's a little bully through and through (my vet bills might be less if i could calm him down!!! Vet says its just his personality) Im doing up the spare room with more cat scratchers and climbing posts to try keep him entertained indoors a bit more!!

I imagine there are a lot of cat owners in my position, but it doesnt mean im not a responsible pet owner, i do everything in my power to reduce the risk to my pet and others. BUT i am realistic about the animal i have and they are not as domesticated as dogs (my guy isnt anyway,having been a stray) I dont think that he should be unhappy just because i didnt get to him in time to train him to live indoors.

Also and sadly there are millions of stray cats in ireland, in my last house where i rented a flat, there were 19 strays living in the back garden!! How do you know that the cat thats roaming isnt a stray?

The Sweeper

sambuka41 wrote: »

Yeah unfortunately i tried, i keep him in for 3 days around halloween every year and it is torture!!! I love him to bits but he has some amount of energy and as much as i would love to change his temperament slightly i cant!! He's a little bully through and through (my vet bills might be less if i could calm him down!!! Vet says its just his personality) Im doing up the spare room with more cat scratchers and climbing posts to try keep him entertained indoors a bit more!!

Sambuka, to give you an idea of what you can expect, if you make the move to turn an outside cat into an inside cat, it takes at least two weeks for the cat to stop its escape attempts. For at least the first two weeks you can expect vocalisation, scratching at the door, and escape attempts where the cat tries to rush the door when you go in or out.

After a fortnight, it should ease off some. It will depend on how much is going on outside - if your cat has to watch a long-standing rival taking over his territory from inside the window for instance, it will take a LOT longer for him to settle and he may even have episodes of aggression towards other pets or towards you. The solution is not to allow him out again, it's to either prevent him having access to the window, or to the room where the window is.

It can take six weeks for the cat to totally readjust to being indoors if it's a persistent cat.

Consistency is absolutely key. If you allow the cat to escape even once during the first few weeks of changing to indoors, you set yourself right back to day one because the yowling and escape attempts will recommence with renewed vigour, and you can start counting down the weeks all over again.

Meanwhile it is VITAL to make indoors as fun as possible. If, like most families, you congregate on your couch in the evenings, you absolutely must have a scratching post right beside it. Cats scratch the couch because it's the equivalent of scent marking the fallen log where the pride congregates in the middle of their territory - they will absolutely not walk off to the room where you put their scratching post, they'll just use the couch, unless they have their own scratching post beside the couch.

Also try toys like a laser pointer, and toys like Da Bird, which is a bunch of feathers on the end of a long string, attached to a flexible fibreglass wand - yes, these are toys where you have to play with the cat. Tiny fabric mice around the size of your thumb are also very popular cat toys for when they're playing on their own.

With indoor feeding, try not to free feed the cat. Meal times are more interesting if they're set at routine times of day - say once in the morning, once in the evening. A mammoth bowl of kibble out all day takes all the fun out of food. You can even start hiding some kibble around the house to stimulate the cat's interest - making sure you count the hidden treats in the day's food ration.

If your cat is a bully as you say, he's at high risk of the diseases that can be contracted through fighting - Feline AIDS and FeLV in particular would be a big worry. Indoors with restricted outdoor access would be the best thing for him.

Lastly - and this is extremely important.

IF TRYING TO CONVERT YOUR CAT TO BEING INDOORS, DO NOT PROJECT YOUR EMOTIONS ONTO THE CAT.

A lot of owners fall for a cat's vocalisation because they suddenly become fluent in cat and translate the tone of the miaowing and yowling and announce the cat is 'miserable', or 'desperate to get out', or 'angry with me' (or 'starving' - I know a lot of big fat cats with pathetic miaows that they employ to great use around feeding time.)

Don't do it. Don't attribute human emotion to your cat's miaowing. Scientific research has proven that cats have enough sense to realise they can get what they want using particular noises and tones in their miaows - and if you start caving when you think the cat sounds unhappy, they'll use that to great effect to get things that aren't necessarily good for them - e.g. some of your dinner, a drink of what you're drinking, constant outdoor access. Don't get me started on people who see a cat looking out a window and announce he's pining sadly for the outside and hates being indoors. No, it's a cat, looking out a window. He's interested in the movement out there. His tiny brain cannot string together the thought process behind making connections that lead to pining plus hating. You think he's being terribly complicated, when his fact his brain is going "Ooo! Shiney!"

If you persist in trying to keep your cat in, your vet bills will drop considerably, your cat's risk of disease and injury diminish considerably, there will be a period of readjustment and you will again have a very happy cat and you will have no stress. If you have an outdoor area that you can cat proof, you will then have the best of both worlds - fresh air, limited roaming, greatly reduced risk of injury and disease, and zero stress for you.

Nobody's saying you're irresponsible for letting your cat out, because there is a huge mindshift across western europe that needs to take place regarding the care of cats - similar to that which took place in the early 1980s regarding the care of dogs. Dogs used to be allowed roam free, or put outside to walk themselves. These days it's generally accepted that only the most irresponsible dog owners allow their animals that scope for wandering. A similar thing may happen with cats, but it hasn't happened yet.

lrushe

sambuka41 wrote: »

Im always shocked by the treatment cats get,i cant tell anyone i have a cat without them responding with pure disgust. Its very upsetting to be honest,i love my cat and fear for how he is treated by people, he came back in once in pain,the vet thought he had been kicked,prob by a man as he became very scared of them very suddenly. I would love to be able to keep him where i know he is ok,and where he cant be a "nuisance" to others but realistically i cant.:(

He was a stray that adopted me, he will not be confined, it goes completely against his nature. Ive rescued him, been responsible and had him neutered so as to stop more stray cats, and im being called irresponsible cause he goes toilet outside.

Im sure my vet bills are higher than a dog owners, due to the abuse he has suffered while outside(both by ppl and other cats). So who has been paying my vet bills,even if i caught the man that kicked him, what could i do? Nothing!!! If he kicked a dog something could be done but because my baby is a cat i just have to accept it as part of this cultures hate for cats.

I cant deny him his nature and lock him in, nor can i build an area outside (i wish i could but i rent).

I have to agree whole heartedly with this, I have always been a 'dog person' myself and only acquired my cat by accident really. I always feared getting attached to a cat because people treat them so cruel almost like vermin rather than someones much loved pet or an elderly persons sole companion. There are pros and cons to cats and dogs that are hard to change, dogs bark cats make little or no noise, dogs are happy to be confined and walked outside cats for the most part are alot more independant and less human dependant. I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could make a cat stay inside but IMO I can't imagine it would be truly happy especially one that has experienced the freedom of being outside.

iguana

I don't know why people are so blasé about the damage caused by cats. Roaming cats are one of the biggest killers of native birds. Cats destroy hencoops. I know a few people who keep hens who thought they were being destroyed by urban foxes but when they investigated further discovered the problem was cats. The cats totally and utterly destroyed the hen house, killing every single hen in residence each time they were able to get in and weren't stopped. Whereas foxes tend to grab one hen and go.

I have been attacked by cats, my dogs while on a lead have been attacked by cats. I had been trying to work on getting my dogs to tolerate cats and not give chase, but since they were attacked by two separate cats that's gone completely out the window. I know children who have been attacked and hurt by cats. I know an awful lot of people who have had their car's paintwork badly damaged by cats. They do an unbelievable damage and just because dogs have the potential to do more doesn't mitigate cats and cat owners of the damage cats do.

I support any initiative to keep cats indoors unless under control by law and I believe in the next 10-20 years this will happen. I know in the US wild bird societies are working toward getting the law changed to protect certain birds from extinction in some areas. I think once that starts happening in some states and countries it will be expanded into other countries too. 25 years ago it was still standard to allow your dog out to wander and that changed, it will change for cats too.

I know a number of people who keep indoor only cats and the cats are extremely content. Very responsive to their owner, closer to dog-like in their relationship. I don't really like cats, but I like these cats. An indoor cat's lifespan is likely to be 4 to 5 times longer than an outdoor cat. 20-26 years as opposed to 5-6. I don't understand how that simple fact alone isn't enough to make people reconsider allowing their cats to wander.

I don't want my dogs to hurt or bother anyone or anything. I don't want then to crap in other people's gardens or on the footpath. I don't want them to kill anything, I don't want to break the law and be fined or have my dogs taken. But the number one reason I will not allow my dogs to wander and it trumps all the other reasons by a factor of one million, is that I do not want them to get hurt or killed. They are my family, I love them, I will do whatever I can to protect them and I don't let them wander alone as it isn't safe for them. And it clearly isn't safe for cats either.

Graces7

This is bewildering; I never heard of most of this.

Where do you live? I have never ever heard of cats attacking humans.

Once we had a feral mother cat that was a little aggressive to two puppies we had.

NB Foxes do not take one hen; they go on a killing spree and this sounds more like foxes than cats. Mink also break into hen coops and kill all they find.

Our two cats come and go as they please; but we re rural. We are having a little problem with a territitorial feral just now.

And they keep mice and rats away.

iguana wrote: »

I don't know why people are so blasé about the damage caused by cats. Roaming cats are one of the biggest killers of native birds. Cats destroy hencoops. I know a few people who keep hens who thought they were being destroyed by urban foxes but when they investigated further discovered the problem was cats. The cats totally and utterly destroyed the hen house, killing every single hen in residence each time they were able to get in and weren't stopped. Whereas foxes tend to grab one hen and go.

I have been attacked by cats, my dogs while on a lead have been attacked by cats. I had been trying to work on getting my dogs to tolerate cats and not give chase, but since they were attacked by two separate cats that's gone completely out the window. I know children who have been attacked and hurt by cats. I know an awful lot of people who have had their car's paintwork badly damaged by cats. They do an unbelievable damage and just because dogs have the potential to do more doesn't mitigate cats and cat owners of the damage cats do.

I support any initiative to keep cats indoors unless under control by law and I believe in the next 10-20 years this will happen. I know in the US wild bird societies are working toward getting the law changed to protect certain birds from extinction in some areas. I think once that starts happening in some states and countries it will be expanded into other countries too. 25 years ago it was still standard to allow your dog out to wander and that changed, it will change for cats too.

I know a number of people who keep indoor only cats and the cats are extremely content. Very responsive to their owner, closer to dog-like in their relationship. I don't really like cats, but I like these cats. An indoor cat's lifespan is likely to be 4 to 5 times longer than an outdoor cat. 20-26 years as opposed to 5-6. I don't understand how that simple fact alone isn't enough to make people reconsider allowing their cats to wander.

I don't want my dogs to hurt or bother anyone or anything. I don't want then to crap in other people's gardens or on the footpath. I don't want them to kill anything, I don't want to break the law and be fined or have my dogs taken. But the number one reason I will not allow my dogs to wander and it trumps all the other reasons by a factor of one million, is that I do not want them to get hurt or killed. They are my family, I love them, I will do whatever I can to protect them and I don't let them wander alone as it isn't safe for them. And it clearly isn't safe for cats either.

Graces7

Cats are very territorial. So this one may simply have adopted your garden as part of its patch.

Each time we move, we get ferals around who have laid claim to our garden already; usually our own cats see them off. Just now there are still loud visits from one large feral. We have seen him and he is a huge brute of a cat:) He seeks not food, but this land is his.

Our dogs chase him off, but still he returns.

cianer wrote: »

I know! I would have thought the same myself, unfortunatly this is the second time I've seen this very cat get attacked in the garden, and my husband says he sees it in the garden most mornings before the dogs are let out. Maybe it's a particularily dumb cat?

You're right Sweeper - the post wasn't intended to deteriorate into whether it's ok for cats to poo in my garden (me owning my own animals who poo in my garden should be irrevelant, it's my choice), but I was genuinely upset seeing another animal attacked in my own garden when I work so hard to control my pack outside my house so this exact thing doesnt happen. I love all animals, cats may not be my favourite but I would never want to see them hurt or stand by and watch them getting hurt.

Paul91

Graces7 wrote: »

And they keep mice and rats away.

they don't need to roam to keep the mice and rats away though? My uncle's always kept dogs on their farms to keep the mice and rats away, also a gentleman i know who was employed to keep down "rodents" on a power station used dogs rather than cats

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cianer wrote: »

'it's in a cat's nature to wander and you can't keep it in'. That's the biggest cop out I've ever heard, it's in a dog's instinct to wander for miles a day

It is in a cats nature, the only way to stop it is to lock them up 24/7 which is pretty cruel, also cats arnt animals you can "take for a walk", so they do need to be let out by themselves. You would think the cat would be afraid to come into the garden once it has been chased out by the dogs a few times.

iguana

Graces7 wrote: »

This is bewildering; I never heard of most of this.

Where do you live? I have never ever heard of cats attacking humans.

I know two people who needed tetanus after being attacked and scratched by cats. They were told by the doctor/nurse that it's very, very common. I'm including a couple of links to a couple of news stories about it. What happened to me twice as a child and as a teen was in Ireland and is similar to the American article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-424841/Warning-Dangerous-Cat--attacked-13-people-years.html
http://www.connpost.com/news/ci_3646541

It's happened to my dogs twice in SW London. I will be walking past a house/car/tree and a cat leaps out jumps on one of my dogs' back and scratches at it's face eyes. This happened shortly after I moved here, so I suspect the cats used to use my garden and saw it as theirs so they resented my dogs moving in. Understandable from the cat's pov but frightening and frustrating for me. It's also completely ruined any chance I had of getting my dogs used to cats, they are immediately on alert when they see a cat now.

It's also happened to my my parents' dog and (sort-of) cat in Limerick, though I believe in their case the attacking cats are feral rather than wandering pets. I have also heard of wandering cats attacking other people's pet cats in their homes.

Graces7 wrote: »

NB Foxes do not take one hen; they go on a killing spree and this sounds more like foxes than cats. Mink also break into hen coops and kill all they find.

The cats were seen and sometimes caught by the hen owners. I know three hen owners in Limerick and London who have caught cats destroying their hens on many, many occasions. I'm not sure if the cats in Limerick were roaming pets or ferals, I doubt the ones in London were feral, but it was in an area with quite a lot of roaming pet cats.

iguana

Paul91 wrote: »

they don't need to roam to keep the mice and rats away though? My uncle's always kept dogs on their farms to keep the mice and rats away, also a gentleman i know who was employed to keep down "rodents" on a power station used dogs rather than cats

Yup, terriers are generally much more effective at rodent control than cats. Cats often even bring mice/rats into the house. I lived in a house with two cats before and it was over-run with mice in winter - I was cat/housesitting for 3 months and the house was partly renovated so the mice had very easy access. The bloody cats were oblivious to them, I think that's when I went off cats. My spaniels, however, are perfectly adept at catching and killing mice, if I ever lived somewhere where I have a big problem with rats/mice I'd go for a terrier rather than a cat.

PCros

A spaniel better than a cat at catching mice?? Love to see that. You obviously were minding some very lazy cats.

How can a dog get behind couches, under beds or on top of presses when mice go there? Cats can access pretty much anywhere in a house.

PCros

Paul91 wrote: »

they don't need to roam to keep the mice and rats away though? My uncle's always kept dogs on their farms to keep the mice and rats away, also a gentleman i know who was employed to keep down "rodents" on a power station used dogs rather than cats

Simply because letting a cat roam around a power station is complete madness! Just imagine the places it could access compared to a dog.

Paul91

PCros wrote: »

Simply because letting a cat roam around a power station is complete madness! Just imagine the places it could access compared to a dog.

so you agree that dogs are best at the job - cool

PCros

Paul91 wrote: »

so you agree that dogs are best at the job - cool

Yes if you want to minimise the chance of a nuclear meltdown.....not for your house.

Paul91

PCros wrote: »

A spaniel better than a cat at catching mice?? Love to see that. You obviously were minding some very lazy cats.

How can a dog get behind couches, under beds or on top of presses when mice go there? Cats can access pretty much anywhere in a house.

you ever seen a cat go down a rat/mouse/rabbit hole? i've seen terriers go down them, as for getting behind a couch, under beds that would be a piece of cake, even i can do that mice tend to hide behind skirting boards in lofts and basically places that are very secure - you got a cat that can get in behind the skirting boards or in the loft - love to see that

Paul91

PCros wrote: »

Yes if you want to minimise the chance of a nuclear meltdown.....not for your house.

not much chance of that in a coal fired power station though

PCros

Paul91 wrote: »

you got a cat that can get in behind the skirting boards or in the loft - love to see that

No where did I say that?

PCros

Paul91 wrote: »

not much chance of that in a coal fired power station though

You know what i mean though.

enda1

If as previous posters state, that cats are considered wild animals - and the obvious fact that they are not endangered...

Is it then legal to set traps or poison for them?
I wouldn't but am just raising the question.

Also would it mean that someone could just take your cat as their own?

Paul91

PCros wrote: »

No where did I say that?

you didn't - you did say -

How can a dog get behind couches, under beds or on top of presses when mice go there?

my point was mice don't hide under beds behind couches - and if they did most terriers would be able to get to them - they (mice) are more likely to hide behind skirting boards and in lofts where neither dogs or cats can get to them

iguana

PCros wrote: »

A spaniel better than a cat at catching mice?? Love to see that. You obviously were minding some very lazy cats.

They were shít cats. I would be watching tv and hear the mice and the cats would be sitting there utterly oblivious. I've never been a cat person but I knew the house would have mouse problems as one of the kitchen walls wasn't attached properly to the house and it was winter. I thought the cats would prevent it from getting too bad, I was all prepared for cats to win me over. But they just didn't seem aware of or bothered by the mice. It was weird. I would have been better at catching the mice with my bare hands than the cats were.

I didn't say my dogs are better than all cats at mice catching, but they are better at catching them than those cats were. My dogs have caught mice a few times. They are springer spaniels so they are hunting dogs not lap dogs. They are amazing scenthounds so they are aware of the tracks mice use, mice tend to keep treading the same paths, and they are smart enough and well sighted enough to watch the trail when they hear a mouse. Wait quietly and stay still while waiting for the mouse. They also hunt as a pack so the faster dog positions to pounce in the direction of the other dog who is positioned to cut off the exit. When the mouse appears they stay still and let it get to the furthest point between escape routes. Then the faster dog pounces. I've only seen them do it a couple of times but I've seen them find trails and position themselves on numerous occasions and I've found the evidence of their successful catches on many a morning.

Though thankfully just the once in our current house. Our old house was in an area where there had been a prolonged refuse worker strike which meat mice were nearly permanently in residence for 2 years after.

Graces7

With ours; the cats are adept hunters, but the JRT is also superb.

PCros wrote: »

A spaniel better than a cat at catching mice?? Love to see that. You obviously were minding some very lazy cats.

How can a dog get behind couches, under beds or on top of presses when mice go there? Cats can access pretty much anywhere in a house.

iguana

enda1 wrote: »

If as previous posters state, that cats are considered wild animals - and the obvious fact that they are not endangered...

Is it then legal to set traps or poison for them?
I wouldn't but am just raising the question.

I think it is. Feral cats are considered vermin and there have been threads on the shooting forum where posters discuss shooting cats. I assume this must be completely legal or the threads would be removed?

Paul91

I don't think cats make good rodent hunters unless their mother taught them how.

PCros

enda1 wrote: »

If as previous posters state, that cats are considered wild animals - and the obvious fact that they are not endangered...

Is it then legal to set traps or poison for them?
I wouldn't but am just raising the question.

Also would it mean that someone could just take your cat as their own?

Yes it is illegal to poison cats but at the same time hard to prove if you did, the same with dogs getting poisoned around the place via rat poison.

Its in Section 1 of the Protection of Animals Act, 1911 if you want to read it.

cianer

Mckinley Freezing Beach wrote: »

It is in a cats nature, the only way to stop it is to lock them up 24/7 which is pretty cruel, also cats arnt animals you can "take for a walk", so they do need to be let out by themselves. You would think the cat would be afraid to come into the garden once it has been chased out by the dogs a few times.

It's in a dog's nature to roam too, always has been, always will be, which is why rescues are getting in more and more problem dogs who have been cooped up in a back garden - they're not taken out and not allowed (rightly) to wander so they end up with behavioural problems. Just because it's against the law to let a dog wander and not to let a cat wander doesnt mean it's any less in a dog's nature to wander. Are we all cruel who only take our dogs out walking with us?

Plenty of apartment cats never get out and are perfectly happy if they're given stimulation. Maybe some cat owners are too lazy to play with their cats and give it the attention it needs for it to be happy as an indoors cat? I would have thought keeping your pet safe would have been above all else, and the fact is a free-roaming cat IS NOT safe