GRA to ballot members

Dirk Gently

The Garda Representative Association could be joining PS workers on any future strikes. Looks like they're going to ballot members on strike action.

It could just be saber rattling to influence the budget but if they follow through and actually do go out on strike then any upcoming PS strikes just got a whole lot more worrying for the government.

Interesting times ahead.

LINK

seamus

The "frontline alliance" as they're called, need to distance themselves from the rest of the public service and establish themselves as an individual entity for any strike action to be effective.

Gardai, Nurses, Firemen and so forth have a lot more public support and sympathy than your pen-pusher or middle management bod so the government wouldn't get much stick for going easy on them in the budget (or afterwards).

ceret

Isn't it illegal for the Gardaí to strike... I'm sure the guards will prosecute themselves for that breech of the law. :P

irish_bob

seamus wrote: »

The "frontline alliance" as they're called, need to distance themselves from the rest of the public service and establish themselves as an individual entity for any strike action to be effective.

Gardai, Nurses, Firemen and so forth have a lot more public support and sympathy than your pen-pusher or middle management bod so the government wouldn't get much stick for going easy on them in the budget (or afterwards).

while nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country and have a uniqueley special place in irish peoples hearts , being a people who are naturally hostile to authority , the guards are not all that well liked and i dont believe most people will support thier move



ps . check out garda pay rates here

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

segaBOY

Military Police may be on the streets in a few weeks so, interesting times indeed.

Inquitus

Gardai go on strike and they'll have absolutely feck all public support, plus it illegal for them to do so.

hierro

irish_bob wrote: »

while nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country and have a uniqueley special place in irish peoples hearts , being a people who are naturally hostile to authority , the guards are not all that well liked and i dont believe most people will support thier move



ps . check out garda pay rates here

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

and check out http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520Averages are all smoke and mirrors.

I'm a member, I don't agree with strike action. I think we should stand on our own two feet in representing ourselves....

d00gle

The issue is not the strike action, I'm a Garda and will not strike because it would go against what I believe in and thats upholding the law.... for us what the issue is that we cannot deal directly with government on any sort of pay issues.... good or bad. Everybody else deals directly and therefore has direct input whatever the outcome. However for Gardai its literally someone from government comming out of a room and goin "thats whats your getting..... or not as the case may be". Is this anyway to treat a Police Force of a nation whatever your feeling towards them??? Let me be clear... no Police Force should strike.... but should be given a voice to deal directly with government just like all unions and employer groups alike.

ROS123

seamus wrote: »

The "frontline alliance" as they're called, need to distance themselves from the rest of the public service and establish themselves as an individual entity for any strike action to be effective.

Gardai, Nurses, Firemen and so forth have a lot more public support and sympathy than your pen-pusher or middle management bod so the government wouldn't get much stick for going easy on them in the budget (or afterwards).

Seamus, they could but who will feed them, clean up after them, or more importantly, pay them ?

Rob67

segaBOY wrote: »

Military Police may be on the streets in a few weeks so, interesting times indeed.

There is nowhere near enough of them to cover even the most mundane of Garda operations, so that would be a non-runner. Added to that, they would have no authority to act in such a capacity except by way of civil arrest.

super_furry

Can't see how any Gardai can advocate breaking the law.

seamus

irish_bob wrote: »

while nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country and have a uniqueley special place in irish peoples hearts , being a people who are naturally hostile to authority , the guards are not all that well liked and i dont believe most people will support thier move

I don't think that's quite so true any more. The Garda Siochana had a tough time at it's inception since it came directly from the police force that was in place during the free state era, so for a long time, being a member of the Gardai was seen as being an agent of the British government. Indeed, the IRA probably had more support than the Gardai during the "troubles" because the IRA were seen as Irish freedom fighters and the Gardai were still the remnants of traitors. The IRA's completely remorseless murder of Gerry McCabe illustrates this - Sinn Fein still don't think there was anything wrong with his murder.

Back then, people went into the Gardai not for the glory but because they wanted to crack heads and get a good, safe, pensionable salary to boot. A family would be ashamed of having a Garda son, while secretly using his connections to serve themselves. This is the other problem Gardai had - they were seen as power abusers and nothing but corrupt thugs. Donegal for example.

Particularly though over the last 15 years, this has changed. There was far more money to be made outside of the public service and becoming a Garda has become more of a vocation than a highly-sought meal ticket. Coupled with massive improvements in the organisation itself, it's efficiency, professionalism and image, people just don't have the same vitriol they used to. Most ordinary people know a Garda by name - be it family or friend - and aren't ashamed to say they know them.
There are certain segments of society who consider Gardai to be thugs and wasters, but they're primarily travellers, scumbags and chuckies.

That sounds like a recruitment ad for the Gardai , I know they're far from perfect and there's a lot to do, but I don't personally know anyone who actually hates the Gardai or who has contempt for them - everyone I know respects the ****e they have to deal with and is glad that they exist.

future_plans

Garda Strike! Army on the streets! Anarchy! The Unions will bring down the country....the end is nigh!

What a fcking mess!

irish_bob

hierro wrote: »

and check out http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520Averages are all smoke and mirrors.

I'm a member, I don't agree with strike action. I think we should stand on our own two feet in representing ourselves....

averages are smokes and mirrors , are your bertie aherne , only bertie could dismiss the universally accepted meaning of what defines averages , you might aswell say the laws of gravity are smokes and mirrors :rolleyes:

irish_bob

seamus wrote: »

I don't think that's quite so true any more. The Garda Siochana had a tough time at it's inception since it came directly from the police force that was in place during the free state era, so for a long time, being a member of the Gardai was seen as being an agent of the British government. Indeed, the IRA probably had more support than the Gardai during the "troubles" because the IRA were seen as Irish freedom fighters and the Gardai were still the remnants of traitors. The IRA's completely remorseless murder of Gerry McCabe illustrates this - Sinn Fein still don't think there was anything wrong with his murder.

Back then, people went into the Gardai not for the glory but because they wanted to crack heads and get a good, safe, pensionable salary to boot. A family would be ashamed of having a Garda son, while secretly using his connections to serve themselves. This is the other problem Gardai had - they were seen as power abusers and nothing but corrupt thugs. Donegal for example.


complete and utter hogwash , the majority of guards either during the boom or now wouldnt have a hope of earning more in the private sector , this past decade when it came to potential earnings for those who joined the guards , it was a case of choosing a career pulling motorists for no tax displayed or shovelling cement on a building site , the difference being the garda paid alot more , most labourers or even plumbers and electricians didnt earn 1200 euro per week and none of them had the same pension benefits
Particularly though over the last 15 years, this has changed. There was far more money to be made outside of the public service and becoming a Garda has become more of a vocation than a highly-sought meal ticket. Coupled with massive improvements in the organisation itself, it's efficiency, professionalism and image, people just don't have the same vitriol they used to. Most ordinary people know a Garda by name - be it family or friend - and aren't ashamed to say they know them.
There are certain segments of society who consider Gardai to be thugs and wasters, but they're primarily travellers, scumbags and chuckies.

That sounds like a recruitment ad for the Gardai , I know they're far from perfect and there's a lot to do, but I don't personally know anyone who actually hates the Gardai or who has contempt for them - everyone I know respects the ****e they have to deal with and is glad that they exist.

complete and utter hogwash , the majority of guards either during the boom or now wouldnt have a hope of earning more in the private sector , this past decade when it came to potential earnings for those who joined the guards , it was a case of choosing a career pulling motorists for no tax displayed or shovelling cement on a building site , the difference being the garda paid alot more , most labourers or even plumbers and electricians didnt earn 1200 euro per week and none of them had the same pension benefits

segaBOY

Rob67 wrote: »

There is nowhere near enough of them to cover even the most mundane of Garda operations, so that would be a non-runner. Added to that, they would have no authority to act in such a capacity except by way of civil arrest.

Weren't they on stand by during the last blue flu? Themselves and the higher Garda ranks would cover policing.

seamus

irish_bob wrote: »

complete and utter hogwash , the majority of guards either during the boom or now wouldnt have a hope of earning more in the private sector , this past decade when it came to potential earnings for those who joined the guards , it was a case of choosing a career pulling motorists for no tax displayed or shovelling cement on a building site , the difference being the garda paid alot more , most labourers or even plumbers and electricians didnt earn 1200 euro per week and none of them had the same pension benefits

Starting Garda salary is just over €500/week (excluding overtime and allowances obviously).

During the boom, people didn't think long-term. In 2002/2003, an 18-year-old leaving school could easily walk onto a building site and earn €22k or more pretty much instantly, increasing very rapidly, and generally living the life of reilly. Anyone with a trade was in high demand and could earn €30k before they'd even finished training. In the Gardai on the other hand, you'd have to spend two years in Templemore before starting on a salary of €25k possibly in a station a long way from home.

Joining the Gardai has not been an attractive option when you consider the high starting salaries and large pay increases which were available in boom industries such as construction.

You also have to consider that being a Garda isn't a cushy number. You don't get to sit at a desk 9-5, surfing the web when you're bored.

jon1981

segaBOY wrote: »

Military Police may be on the streets in a few weeks so, interesting times indeed.

what like all 900 of them? would make f*ck all difference

segaBOY

seamus wrote: »

In the Gardai on the other hand, you'd have to spend two years in Templemore before starting on a salary of €25k possibly in a station a long way from home.

Don't you get a decent allowance of €203 per week and boot and uniform allowance of €7.32 in Templemore excluding the additional bed and board in phase 1 alone? Isn't the starting salary €27,098? Before over time and allowances of course.

jon1981 wrote: »

what like all 900 of them? would make f*ck all difference

Them and higher ranking Gardaí who would be called in. It wouldn't be to the same level of policing but you have to make do in times of emergency.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pay-restraint-gives-garda-the-blue-flu-1162089.html

larrytom

The public service using the gardai to get their way
No government should give in to this
Shame on the gardai if they do

seamus

segaBOY wrote: »

Don't you get a decent allowance of €203 per week and boot and uniform allowance of €7.32 in Templemore excluding the additional bed and board in phase 1 alone? Isn't the starting salary €27,098? Before over time and allowances of course.

Whatever you get paid, it's still time away from your family and friends, bunking with other people and effectively living in a barracks.
Salary-wise the Gardai is attractive now, because it's safe and pensionable. But before people's jobs were at risk, you have to *want* to be a Garda to consider it as a career choice.

gent9662

d00gle wrote: »

The issue is not the strike action, I'm a Garda and will not strike because it would go against what I believe in and thats upholding the law.... for us what the issue is that we cannot deal directly with government on any sort of pay issues.... good or bad. Everybody else deals directly and therefore has direct input whatever the outcome. However for Gardai its literally someone from government comming out of a room and goin "thats whats your getting..... or not as the case may be". Is this anyway to treat a Police Force of a nation whatever your feeling towards them??? Let me be clear... no Police Force should strike.... but should be given a voice to deal directly with government just like all unions and employer groups alike.

Is being told what you are getting any different in the private sector? The only difference is that we get an extra sentence thrown in which goes like this: "If you don't like it, leave! You guys have milked the system for so so many years. You have savage overtime hours, bonuses, allowances to beat the band, free travel on the train by flashing the badge. I'm sure there are also a lot of other hidden extra's.

You are absolutely right when you say no to strike action. I believe every Garda takes an oath to the constitution before receiving their badge?

I hope the Guards go on strike, if it was anything like the last one, it will prove that the country can survive very well when the public sector goes up to the north for christmas shopping.

segaBOY

seamus wrote: »

Whatever you get paid, it's still time away from your family and friends, bunking with other people and effectively living in a barracks.
Salary-wise the Gardai is attractive now, because it's safe and pensionable. But before people's jobs were at risk, you have to *want* to be a Garda to consider it as a career choice.

The salary scales are black and white on the GRA website. That is the career you choose but it is not confined to one having to "*want* to be a Garda to consider it as a career choice.".

A similar example is my cousin, he's an Army Officer-he has been living in a barracks away from home for 3 years now-but he doesn't necessarily fully *want* to be in the Army. This was before people were losing their jobs.

Remuneration is certainly a massive part of it. He put it like this to me "I can either work in a factory for some US multinational for €25k a year tomorrow morning or I can join the Army and earn €36k after 16 months of training". Less than 2 years after being commissioned he's on €55k with allowances.

Money is a massive factor and that's the bottom line for many (not all) Gardaí, hence why they are considering industrial action over pay reductions.

super_furry

Any Garda that goes on strike should lose their job. It's illegal for them to strike and if they flagrantly break the law by doing so, then they're not fit to do their jobs.

Rookster

Any of the Gardai that I know would be lucky to get any sort of job in the private sector.They are already overpaid for what they do and this is before the perks. I know half a dozen of them fairly well and each one has at least three houses. One of them has six houses and he is only in the force 12 years. Poor public servants.

dan_d

Imagine someone coming out of a room and saying "that's what you're getting".
Except.....that's exactly what happened to us last month.Director enters room "people we need you take a 5% paycut from Jan. There'll be a letter in the post".
And that was it.
You got benchmarking to keep you in line with the private sector. Now you get the paycuts to keep you in line with the private sector. It's how it's done everywhere else, regardless of what you do all day.

cassette50

It's a direct threat against the State..but we have to remember how poorly they are treated, such as:

Paid to polish their shoes
Paid to clean and iron their cloths
Paid extra when on holidays because they cannot avail of overtime
Paid extra when working in a rural location because they cannot avail of overtime
Paid extra for office duties

The list could go on but i think you get the picture!

eoinbn

They will probably stop issuing speeding tickets...

population

So the Gardai are going to break the law

Nothing new there so..........

Rob67

jon1981 wrote: »

what like all 900 of them? would make f*ck all difference

That would be including the Reserves (RDF), which would be made up largely of Private/ Public Sector workers, students and so on, who may not get time off work/ college to be used. In reality there are very few PDF MP's to be had, unfortunately.

segaBOY wrote: »

Them and higher ranking Gardaí who would be called in. It wouldn't be to the same level of policing but you have to make do in times of emergency.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pay-restraint-gives-garda-the-blue-flu-1162089.html

The Blue flu had very little impact in real terms, the Defence Forces were on standby and remained that way for the period and were never actually used. It was a total pain in the ass that day.


Besides, it would never come to that anyway, and it is really a pointless exercise to be even considered feasible.

Husqvarna

I think we should forget about the Military Police to begin with. As mentioned earlier they do not have the resources to police the state in lieu of the Gardai.

Secondly, I suspect that this is proposed ballot is the unions using the GRA to heap pressure on the Govt after the collapse of their recent talks.

I for one think that all right-minded Gardai (like some of the earlier posters) will resist this move. Not only is it morally indefensible, but it is also illegal. I think the GRA will lose any support it may have by following this path. There comes a time when the Gardai and more particularly the GRA have to realise that pay cuts are the new reality. It's common knowledge that Gardai are well paid, and now some of that is going to be clawed back given the state of the public finances.

I don't really know what the GRA is looking to achieve from this, but if as someone mentioned earlier the right to negotiate with Govt, I suspect that there are better ways of going about it. Also, the GRA allows the Gardai to negotiate with Govt on pay and conditions, does it not? Was that not what it was set up for?