GRA to ballot members

gent9662

cassette50 wrote: »

It's a direct threat against the State..but we have to remember how poorly they are treated, such as:

Paid to polish their shoes
Paid to clean and iron their cloths
Paid extra when on holidays because they cannot avail of overtime
Paid extra when working in a rural location because they cannot avail of overtime
Paid extra for office duties

The list could go on but i think you get the picture!

....
Paid for attending football matches
Paid for commuting into their jobs
Paid in a defined benefit pension
Paid for doing sweet FA.

gent9662

Just heard a good one there.....

Garda Representative Association:

We have given our lives...now they take our livelihood

Isn't it a bit over dramatic when the normal Garda sits in an office eating ginger nut biscuits and surfing the web in their free garda clothes and boots!

Rob67

segaBOY wrote: »

The salary scales are black and white on the GRA website. That is the career you choose but it is not confined to one having to "*want* to be a Garda to consider it as a career choice.".

A similar example is my cousin, he's an Army Officer-he has been living in a barracks away from home for 3 years now-but he doesn't necessarily fully *want* to be in the Army. This was before people were losing their jobs.

Remuneration is certainly a massive part of it. He put it like this to me "I can either work in a factory for some US multinational for €25k a year tomorrow morning or I can join the Army and earn €36k after 16 months of training". Less than 2 years after being commissioned he's on €55k with allowances.

Money is a massive factor and that's the bottom line for many (not all) Gardaí, hence why they are considering industrial action over pay reductions.

Cool, He made top of the 8 year scale in the Naval Service while serving in the Army in only two years, hell of a guy. Let me guess, he is going to be Chief of Staff in another four?

Officer pay scales:

http://www.military.ie/careers/booklets/Cadet%20Booklet%202009%20(update).pdf

I think your leg was being pulled. :D:D

Rob67

Husqvarna wrote: »

I think we should forget about the Military Police to begin with. As mentioned earlier they do not have the resources to police the state in lieu of the Gardai.

Secondly, I suspect that this is proposed ballot is the unions using the GRA to heap pressure on the Govt after the collapse of their recent talks.

I for one think that all right-minded Gardai (like some of the earlier posters) will resist this move. Not only is it morally indefensible, but it is also illegal. I think the GRA will lose any support it may have by following this path. There comes a time when the Gardai and more particularly the GRA have to realise that pay cuts are the new reality. It's common knowledge that Gardai are well paid, and now some of that is going to be clawed back given the state of the public finances.

I don't really know what the GRA is looking to achieve from this, but if as someone mentioned earlier the right to negotiate with Govt, I suspect that there are better ways of going about it. Also, the GRA allows the Gardai to negotiate with Govt on pay and conditions, does it not? Was that not what it was set up for?

+1

gent9662

Rob67 wrote: »

+1

Yes similar to the GPA in GAA terms!

Husqvarna

super_furry wrote: »

Any Garda that goes on strike should lose their job. It's illegal for them to strike and if they fragrantly break the law by doing so, then they're not fit to do their jobs.

A nice splash of aftershave before they head off with their placards.:D

Sorry, couldn't resist.

kumate_champ07

ceret wrote: »

Isn't it illegal for the Gardaí to strike... I'm sure the guards will prosecute themselves for that breech of the law. :P

maybe members of the public should find them all and make citizens arrests, if they cant show that they are genuinely sick then they should be prosecuted.

I think also that having all the different careers bunched into one in this situation is ridiculous as some people get full pensions 10years before others, the army(and I think the gardai too) can retire around 50yrs old and go on and do other work while getting paid a full pension

Husqvarna

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I think also that having all the different careers bunched into one in this situation is ridiculous as some people get full pensions 10years before others, the army(and I think the gardai too) can retire around 50yrs old and go on and do other work while getting paid a full pension

The Gardai and Army retire early as there's a physical aspect to their job I suspect. 65-year old guard isn't of much use on the beat late at night. I'm sure most would prefer to stay on until normal retirement age, but this early retirement is mandatory for them. I know I'd prefer to be earning full pay at 50 rather than be on a much-reduced pension.

Rookster

dclane wrote: »

....

Paid for attending football matches
Paid for commuting into their jobs
Paid in a defined benefit pension
Paid for doing sweet FA.

Free meals in restaurants
Free drinks in pubs
Free entry to nightclubs
Free entry to matches (when off duty)

All of the above I have witnessed first hand.

kumate_champ07

Husqvarna wrote: »

The Gardai and Army retire early as there's a physical aspect to their job I suspect.

a nurse has a more physically challenging job than a garda.

not all of the army are out running 10miles a day, some sit at a desk all day. they dont have to pay vat on their booze on the curragh camp as far as I recall, I was at a 21st a while ago and couldnt believe the price of a pint.

I remember when I was working in a warehouse a 50yr old ex army man was doing the same job and told he his job in the army was a 'handy number', he was getting a pension and a full weeks wages

kumate_champ07

seamus wrote: »

During the boom, people didn't think long-term. In 2002/2003, an 18-year-old leaving school could easily walk onto a building site and earn €22k or more pretty much instantly, increasing very rapidly, and generally living the life of reilly. Anyone with a trade was in high demand and could earn €30k before they'd even finished training. In the Gardai on the other hand, you'd have to spend two years in Templemore before starting on a salary of €25k possibly in a station a long way from home.

when your in construction you retire at 50 because of your body giving up, and you dont have a pension. bad back, knees, maybe even bad lungs. it can be a very dangerous job and very physically demanding. working outside in all kinds of weather.

nurses have to go to college for 3+ years, long hours studying and part time jobs on the side to pay their way, gardai can go into paid training straight from leaving cert

Mr.Micro

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

gardai can go into paid training straight from leaving cert

Unfortunately it shows. The Gardai is not the most sophisticated police force.

gent9662

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

a nurse has a more physically challenging job than a garda.

not all of the army are out running 10miles a day, some sit at a desk all day. they dont have to pay vat on their booze on the curragh camp as far as I recall, I was at a 21st a while ago and couldnt believe the price of a pint.

I remember when I was working in a warehouse a 50yr old ex army man was doing the same job and told he his job in the army was a 'handy number', he was getting a pension and a full weeks wages

So, let's sum up as to why the Gardai feel they should go on strike, the equation is something like this:

Good wages + Good Overtime + Abundance of holidays + Free uniform and boots + garda pension when working another job + free food, travel, entry to clubs + benchmarking + job security + tax free entitlements + entry to matches and sporting events + small pay cut

= Strike!

Makes perfect sense.

Darragh29

I think we need to take a step back here and look at what is happening when the Gardai are threatening to go on strike.

If we have those that are supposed to enforce and uphold the law of the land, deciding to openly break the law of the land, then I think what we are looking at here is potentially a complete cessataion of the operation of normal society.

Gardai are allowed to protest, they are allowed to attend a picket as part of a protest, what they are not allowed to do, for very good reason, is to withdraw their labour as part of that protest.

Gardai are not on top of crime in this country on a good day when they are all working, so I would worry what will happen if they all decide to go on strike, the country would erupt in a wave of crime, in the knowledge that there is not the capacity there to deal with an outbreak of petty crime, such as house break-in's, etc...

How will the single mother of two, living on 240 Euro a week in state benefit, feel when she looks out her window and she see's anti-social behaviour going on outside her house and she goes to call the local Garda station but she realises that her local Garda on 1,207.24 Euro a week, is protesting because he or she had to take a paycut???

Source: http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

gent9662

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think we need to take a step back here and look at what is happening when the Gardai are threatening to go on strike.

If we have those that are supposed to enforce and uphold the law of the land, deciding to openly break the law of the land, then I think what we are looking at here is potentially a complete cessataion of the operation of normal society.

Gardai are allowed to protest, they are allowed to attend a picket as part of a protest, what they are not allowed to do, for very good reason, is to withdraw their labour as part of that protest.

Gardai are not on top of crime in this country on a good day when they are all working, so I would worry what will happen if they all decide to go on strike, the country would erupt in a wave of crime, in the knowledge that there is not the capacity there to deal with an outbreak of petty crime, such as house break-in's, etc...

How will the single mother of two, living on 240 Euro a week in state benefit, feel when she looks out her window and she see's anti-social behaviour going on outside her house and she goes to call the local Garda station but she realises that her local Garda on 1,207.24 Euro a week, is protesting because he or she had to take a paycut???

Source: http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

The highest paid public service sector according to that chart. That's unbelievable! the cheek of them!

Darragh29

The way to deal with this threat of disobedience is to look at how the army deal with discipline...

I used to be in the army, if you break regulations, you are tried under miltary law in the first instance. You don't get a call from the Garda and end up in front of a civil judge who will look favourably on you if you are not standing in front of him in a tracksuit.

You are arrested by the military police pursuant to provisions available under military law, you are brought in handcuffs into custody in the Curragh or a barracks in Dublin somewhere, you appear in front of a military tribunal and you will be discharged if you are deemed to have brought the force into disrepute, which means you are out of a job.

Then you are handed over to the Gardai if there is a criminal case to answer under criminal law, (as distinct from military law), in the event of someone being assaulted or whatever.

segaBOY

Rob67 wrote: »

Cool, He made top of the 8 year scale in the Naval Service while serving in the Army in only two years, hell of a guy. Let me guess, he is going to be Chief of Staff in another four?

Officer pay scales:

http://www.military.ie/careers/booklets/Cadet%20Booklet%202009%20(update).pdf

I think your leg was being pulled. :D:D

They are round figures but he is an Engineer by profession and after his cadetship (he didn't use direct entry) he served in one unit before being transferred to another specific to his profession. He got tech pay for that. And I am including allowances in that.

Edit: Since he already received an honours degree outside of the Army he was appointed full Lieutenant after his Cadetship. With Tech pay and allowances it makes up roughly €55k.

Rob67

Husqvarna wrote: »

The Gardai and Army retire early as there's a physical aspect to their job I suspect. 65-year old guard isn't of much use on the beat late at night. I'm sure most would prefer to stay on until normal retirement age, but this early retirement is mandatory for them. I know I'd prefer to be earning full pay at 50 rather than be on a much-reduced pension.

Amen to that! I left the Army this year, to date, I have dislocated both shoulders, busted both my knees (multiple operations), collapsed vertebrae and arthritis after 22 years service. There are similar stories for a lot of my former colleagues. The Army has a mandatory retirement age of 60 for enlisted.

BTW, aren't we going a bit off topic?

collieh86

being neither aligned to public sector or private sector and falling on the wrong side of the law once to many i find it funny how much the private sector seem to bad mouth the garda and assume they know how and why they do their job yet the public sector dont seem to have fallen to badly into the trap set by the goverment to turn the two sectors on each other. i havent seen much of the public sector bad mouthing the private sector for the way in which the earn their money. havin spent some time in a station sober to be exact it was amazin wat the gards dealt with let alone havin to put up wit me acting the bollox. i dont love the gards by any means but lads get off your arses and see the **** they put up wit. u might be suprised

Husqvarna

Rob67 wrote: »

.

BTW, aren't we going a bit off topic?

Agreed, way off topic. This is a very dangerous situation we face. The Gardai cannot be allowed to threaten the citizens of the state in this way. Public confidence in the Gardai was badly damaged in 1998 when they took "blue flu", this action will destroy their reputation as a disciplined uniformed force. If we cannot trust the police then civil society is in risk of being lost to us. We will be no better than a third world country.

I would urge all Gardai to think long and hard about the consequences of any unauthorised industrial action. If they cannot be trusted then it may be time to go back to the drawing board regarding Garda representation.

population

Rookster wrote: »

Free meals in restaurants
Free drinks in pubs
Free entry to nightclubs
Free entry to matches (when off duty)

All of the above I have witnessed first hand.

Free use of toll roads when off duty
Free parking anywhere anytime
Free pass for drink driving

All of the above I have witnessed first hand

population

collieh86 wrote: »

i find it funny how much the private sector seem to bad mouth the garda and assume they know how and why they do their job yet the public sector dont seem to have fallen to badly into the trap set by the goverment to turn the two sectors on each other.

sigh.......

Poccington

segaBOY wrote: »

A similar example is my cousin, he's an Army Officer-he has been living in a barracks away from home for 3 years now-but he doesn't necessarily fully *want* to be in the Army. This was before people were losing their jobs.

Remuneration is certainly a massive part of it. He put it like this to me "I can either work in a factory for some US multinational for €25k a year tomorrow morning or I can join the Army and earn €36k after 16 months of training". Less than 2 years after being commissioned he's on €55k with allowances.

He is in his ring earning 55k a year.

Husqvarna

Like mentioned earlier, let's keep this about the GRA's actions today, not get side-tracked by how much some guy in the army may or may not get paid.

lmimmfn

dclane wrote: »

The highest paid public service sector according to that chart. That's unbelievable! the cheek of them!

not only that, from that chart, avg weekely of An Garda Siochana ex overtime is 1076.68, with overtime is 1207.24, thats an average yearly salary of 62776.48EUR :eek:

Thats an absolute joke, what theyre doing is a joke, feckin greed

Rob67

I would assume that a lot of Gardai would feel a bit beleaguered by the constant attacks on the pay levels, so it is understandable as to why the GRA took this move towards threatening industrial action. However, I feel, personally, that this is more a 'sabre-rattling' exercise than an actual declaration of intentions.

Of course, they could still ballot the membership, just to gauge the depth of feeling and use that as a larger stick.

I promise that what I say next is not an attempt to stray off-topic:

Back in 1989, Defence Forces personnel were the worst paid members of the wider Public Service this was a result of many years of neglect by various governments over the years.

Pay was so bad, many soldiers had to resort to applying for Family Income Supplement to survive, when these individuals started receiving the allowance what was Brian Lenihan's (Senior) response? A small pay rise, just enough to make sure that those soldiers went through the threshold for FIS and thereby losing this allowance, the pay rise wasn't even close to covering the loss in FIS.

In response to this, Soldiers' wives formed an organisation, the National Army Spouses Association (NASA) which marched, protested and hectored the Minister for Defence to make the necessary changes, which he was eventually forced to do, resulting in the Gleeson Commission report.

The Defence Forces finally got a representative association and the views of the membership of the DF was, for once, listened to. While PDFORRA is far from perfect and subject to legitimate criticism, only for the Army Spouses the DF would have had nothing.

If the Garda spouses adopted the same thinking maybe the rank and file would not need to undertake such action*. The Gardai have a good reputation to uphold, I would not like to see it tarnished by this action. Trust, which is hard to gain, once lost, is very hard to regain.

Just a thought.




*(Cue remarks about members of the INO having to come off their own pickets to support their spouses in the GRA, Copperface Jack's has a lot to answer for!)

Rob67

lmimmfn wrote: »

not only that, from that chart, avg weekely of An Garda Siochana ex overtime is 1076.68, with overtime is 1207.24, thats an average yearly salary of 62776.48EUR :eek:

Thats an absolute joke, what theyre doing is a joke, feckin greed

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, do you not think you are being a bit harsh and generalising?

lmimmfn

Rob67 wrote: »

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, do you not think you are being a bit harsh and generalising?

not in the least, thats nearly 63k average salary, i dont know about you but i think thats a hell of a lot of money, of course its an average, so there will be loads on less and loads on MORE.

As for generalizing, well they knew they couldnt strike when they took the jobs, they knew what the terms and conditions were when they signed up, i didnt see them striking when they were benchmarked to increase their salaries.

If they get their way then it will set a precedence of the government( their employer ) being powerless against doing anything whatsoever that would affect them and the same will apply to the whole PS.

If the government cave on any of their proposed cuts it really will be time to leave this country, as the PS will be running the country and working in the private sector will just be horrible( tax them not us ), maybe thats the overall plan?

With all the crap currently being pulled, how are we going to achieve the other 12billion+ in savings in the next 3 years? so we're going to enjoy this moaning/striking from the PS every year for months on end until 2014?

The Muppet

The Guards are right to stand up for their conditions, I wouldn't count on the army stepping in either. We''ll have to get a private sector police force in place wouldn't that be the cheaper option.

lmimmfn

The Muppet wrote: »

The Guards are right to stand up for their conditions, I wouldn't count on the army stepping in either. We''ll have to get a private sector police force in place wouldn't that be the cheaper option.

might be a great opportunity to do it, recruit around europe and lay off half the Garda over a year or two.