GRA to ballot members

The Muppet

lmimmfn wrote: »

might be a great opportunity to do it, recruit around europe and lay off half the Garda over a year or two.

Great idea, do europeans like ginger nuts?

Rob67

The Muppet wrote: »

The Guards are right to stand up for their conditions, I wouldn't count on the army stepping in either. We''ll have to get a private sector police force in place wouldn't that be the cheaper option.

Then you know very little about the Army.

Private Sector police force? Hahahaha... sorry... hahahahaha!!! Oh dear...:o:rolleyes:

lmimmfn wrote: »

might be a great opportunity to do it, recruit around europe and lay off half the Garda over a year or two.

You are kidding, right?

In the unlikely event that a Private Sector Police force ever being brought in, would you be willing to pay per call-out? Would you be willing to pay by credit/debit card before they respond? On that premise, just say you can't afford to pay?

I presume you are joking, as am I, but my opinion of your idea remains the same. It's simply not workable.

The Muppet

Rob67 wrote: »

Then you know very little about the Army.

Private Sector police force? Hahahaha... sorry... hahahahaha!!! Oh dear...:o:rolleyes:




You are kidding, right?

In the unlikely event that a Private Sector Police force ever being brought in, would you be willing to pay per call-out? Would you be willing to pay by credit/debit card before they respond? On that premise, just say you can't afford to pay?

I presume you are joking, as am I, but my opinion of your idea remains the same. It's simply not workable.

Your sarcasm detector needs to be retuned.


The army represenative body have already said that their members would not be taking up the slack if the Public Service strikes, after all they are public servants too you know.

thebman

collieh86 wrote: »

being neither aligned to public sector or private sector and falling on the wrong side of the law once to many i find it funny how much the private sector seem to bad mouth the garda and assume they know how and why they do their job yet the public sector dont seem to have fallen to badly into the trap set by the goverment to turn the two sectors on each other. i havent seen much of the public sector bad mouthing the private sector for the way in which the earn their money. havin spent some time in a station sober to be exact it was amazin wat the gards dealt with let alone havin to put up wit me acting the bollox. i dont love the gards by any means but lads get off your arses and see the **** they put up wit. u might be suprised

The public sector attacked the private sector with pre-emptive strikes. They said taxes should be raised to pay their wages and money borrowed instead of cuts.

What have the private sector done to the public sector? Pay tax and b*** on boards? God help the poor public sector workers :rolleyes:

The public sector keep saying the government is turning both sectors against each other but it simply isn't the case. The government is trying to get expenditure in line (due to their own arse ups) and the public sector is fighting it tooth and nail which will only mean the private sector has to pay for it in taxes.

The turning the sectors against each other arguments is complete horse sh** IMO.

Rob67

The Muppet wrote: »

Your sarcasm detector needs to be retuned.

Sorry, I couldn't help it!

Seriously though:

The army represenative body have already said that their members would not be taking up the slack if the Public Service strikes, after all they are public servants too you know.

That was PDFORRA talking, not the Minister or the Chief of Staff, PDFORRA don't run the Army.

Can we stay on topic?

Poccington

The Muppet wrote: »

Your sarcasm detector needs to be retuned.


The army represenative body have already said that their members would not be taking up the slack if the Public Service strikes, after all they are public servants too you know.

PDFORRA was put firmly back in it's box by Minister O'Dea. It's a fact that if needed, the DF will plug the gaps left by strikes.

Anyway, back to the topic we go...

irish_bob

seamus wrote: »

Starting Garda salary is just over €500/week (excluding overtime and allowances obviously).

During the boom, people didn't think long-term. In 2002/2003, an 18-year-old leaving school could easily walk onto a building site and earn €22k or more pretty much instantly, increasing very rapidly, and generally living the life of reilly. Anyone with a trade was in high demand and could earn €30k before they'd even finished training. In the Gardai on the other hand, you'd have to spend two years in Templemore before starting on a salary of €25k possibly in a station a long way from home.

Joining the Gardai has not been an attractive option when you consider the high starting salaries and large pay increases which were available in boom industries such as construction.

You also have to consider that being a Garda isn't a cushy number. You don't get to sit at a desk 9-5, surfing the web when you're bored.

gardai start on far more than 25 k unless your one of those who refers to take home pay

gandalf

From my reading of the Garda Siochana Act 2005 these leaders of the GRA are in breach of it by announcing a ballot and should be arrested immediately and face the full strenght of the law. The government should make an example of these men to the rest of the Public Service.

If this strike goes ahead what do we taxpayers have to do to protect our property and our families. Do we have to set up Miltias? If the Gardai ignore the law of the land why should we ordinary citizens have to follow it as well?

irish_bob

Rookster wrote: »

Free meals in restaurants
Free drinks in pubs
Free entry to nightclubs
Free entry to matches (when off duty)

All of the above I have witnessed first hand.

free power tools from the local hire centre , this is ireland and business beit pubs or other has always tried to be on good terms with the local police , the dogs in the street know this

irish_bob

thebman wrote: »

The public sector attacked the private sector with pre-emptive strikes. They said taxes should be raised to pay their wages and money borrowed instead of cuts.

What have the private sector done to the public sector? Pay tax and b*** on boards? God help the poor public sector workers :rolleyes:

The public sector keep saying the government is turning both sectors against each other but it simply isn't the case. The government is trying to get expenditure in line (due to their own arse ups) and the public sector is fighting it tooth and nail which will only mean the private sector has to pay for it in taxes.

The turning the sectors against each other arguments is complete horse sh** IMO.

public v private is an invention by unions which is designed to create a persecution complex among the public sector , when people feel persecuted , they become defensive whether thier is a rational basis for it or not , thier views become entrenched and they are more likely to become millitant and hence push for strikes , unions are proffesional spin doctors and **** stirers

lmimmfn

Rob67 wrote: »

You are kidding, right?

In the unlikely event that a Private Sector Police force ever being brought in, would you be willing to pay per call-out? Would you be willing to pay by credit/debit card before they respond? On that premise, just say you can't afford to pay?

I presume you are joking, as am I, but my opinion of your idea remains the same. It's simply not workable.

lol, joking to an extent, id have 0 problem paying for a police callout if i rang them and i wasnt paying tax to pay for that, its pretty much what happens with the Fire Brigade( in rural areas at least i dont know if City Fire Brigades do the same ).

At the end of the day this carry on of holding the country to ransom has got to stop, i'd have no problem in the good times if the PS were underpaid and they went on strike to increase their pay( which they did and bar the past few years benchmarking i was all behind them ), but its completely unaffordable and unsustainable, something has to give.

ardmacha

The public sector attacked the private sector with pre-emptive strikes.

The private sector attacked the stability of the entire State with greed and speculation, leading to collapse and and a refusal to pay for services.

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

public v private is an invention by unions which is designed to create a persecution complex among the public sector , when people feel persecuted , they become defensive whether this is irrational or not , thier views become entrenched and they are more likely to become millitant and hence push for strikes , unions are proffesional spin doctors and **** stirers

Much like the media? In particular, one organ that has had a more than unhealthy interest in making sure that division is made wider?

'Spin' is a major part of most of the statements from all sides of the Public/ Private debate, it is not wholly generated by one section.

parsi

irish_bob wrote: »

public v private is an invention by unions which is designed to create a persecution complex among the public sector , when people feel persecuted , they become defensive whether this is irrational or not , thier views become entrenched and they are more likely to become millitant and hence push for strikes , unions are proffesional spin doctors and **** stirers

You're right.

This whole debate/fight is between folk who invested in places like Budapest or Bulgaria in the hope of making a quick buck but have failed versus those who didn't buy multiple properties during the so-called tiger period.

gandalf

ardmacha wrote: »

The private sector attacked the stability of the entire State with greed and speculation, leading to collapse and and a refusal to pay for services.

Alot of which was overseen by Public Servants who didn't do their jobs and nip this greed and speculation in the bud.

The reason a lot of PS employees are up in arms is because they bought into the property bubble like a lot of their peers in the private sector. Because they were stupid and invested unwisely is not a reason to keep their inflated wages especially as the country cannot afford it.

lmimmfn

ardmacha wrote: »

The private sector attacked the stability of the entire State with greed and speculation, leading to collapse and and a refusal to pay for services.

lol, you have to be kidding right? so basically we should be more pissed off with the public sector due to the TD's( public sector ) :rolleyes:

Really makes no sense to blame the whole private sector because of those ~2000 that we're in the bed with the government, thats approx 2000 out of 1.5 million private sector works, lol, so im responsible for all this also because im working in the private sector? because approximately 0.0013333333333333% of the private sector caused the problem? lol

Anyone whether public or private who complains about not having much money due to their insane mortgage payments, should never strike, they created and invested in the property bubble. We shouldnt be keeping wages/salaries high just for that, whats going to happen when interest rates return to normal?

thebman

ardmacha wrote: »

The private sector attacked the stability of the entire State with greed and speculation, leading to collapse and and a refusal to pay for services.

:rolleyes: No it didn't. The banks did but they are one small element of the private sector regulated by the public sector.

And the construction industry built to try to fulfill perceived demand. And the local authorities gave them permission to build on flood plains.

IBEC threatened to refuse to pay for services, they didn't refuse to pay them. And it was the only action they could take as the government looked like to try to inflict more pain on the private sector to pay for public sector wages that we cannot afford. Even if you doubled taxes you'd still have to cut wages. Companies are dying left right and centre as it is. If you increases taxes, more companies will go under and there will be less tax take and you'll end up taking an even bigger cut as the government will have to balance the books eventually.

Should also say that IBEC don't represent private sector workers who have made no threats or even attempted to do anything other than pay taxes and their bills and work for a living.

jake59

population wrote: »

Free use of toll roads when off duty
Free parking anywhere anytime
Free pass for drink driving

All of the above I have witnessed first hand

I'd love to know where you witnessed all these first hand. While in the guards i have seen members prosecuted for drink driving and would wonder how a clamper or traffic warden would know an illegally parked car was owned by a guard. People always have their own views about particular jobs and even more so about the guards but to be throwing up statements that you seem to see a lot of things relating to guards first hand either means that you have a very active imagination or you hang around with a member who seems to have a bit of a problem. have you ever seen anything else firsthand?

irish_bob

ardmacha wrote: »

The private sector attacked the stability of the entire State with greed and speculation, leading to collapse and and a refusal to pay for services.

entirely subjective

irish_bob

parsi wrote: »

You're right.

This whole debate/fight is between folk who invested in places like Budapest or Bulgaria in the hope of making a quick buck but have failed versus those who didn't buy multiple properties during the so-called tiger period.

your talking about guards and teachers who bought in budapest , right ??

Rob67

lmimmfn wrote: »

lol, joking to an extent, id have 0 problem paying for a police callout if i rang them and i wasnt paying tax to pay for that, its pretty much what happens with the Fire Brigade( in rural areas at least i dont know if City Fire Brigades do the same ).

Whew!! Thank bejabers for that:D

AFAIK, yes, I believe they do.

At the end of the day this carry on of holding the country to ransom has got to stop, i'd have no problem in the good times if the PS were underpaid and they went on strike to increase their pay( which they did and bar the past few years benchmarking i was all behind them ), but its completely unaffordable and unsustainable, something has to give.

I have no issue with pay-cuts, even if I was still serving, I did have an issue with the methodology employed, however, by govt in relation to the pay reduction policy. It was ham-fisted at best and misleading at worst.

I did and still do, believe that cuts are required but it must be done fairly and at the least expense to the lowest paid sectors.

I do have a problem with the histrionics and hyperbole which is thrown around by some, it doesn't help resolve the issue. Although, I do understand it when some people feel totally disenfranchised and powerless to make or direct changes.

But to get back on topic: I used to be in a location where we worked closely with the Gardai, most of those I met over the years gave sterling service and deserved the pay they got, especially the ones who got injured in service.

Having said that, I don't feel that taking industrial action will serve their purpose though.

irish_bob

lmimmfn wrote: »

lol, you have to be kidding right? so basically we should be more pissed off with the public sector due to the TD's( public sector ) :rolleyes:

Really makes no sense to blame the whole private sector because of those ~2000 that we're in the bed with the government, thats approx 2000 out of 1.5 million private sector works, lol, so im responsible for all this also because im working in the private sector? because approximately 0.0013333333333333% of the private sector caused the problem? lol

Anyone whether public or private who complains about not having much money due to their insane mortgage payments, should never strike, they created and invested in the property bubble. We shouldnt be keeping wages/salaries high just for that, whats going to happen when interest rates return to normal?

the public sectors collective defense is that because a handfull of developers broke the banks , everyone from johny who is flipping burgers in abrakababra to jenifer who is cutting hair in peter marks is responsible for the rescession while on the other hand , the entire public sector is cleaner than a nuns sheets even though the goverment ( who aided and abbeted the property bubble ) and the financial regulator who turned a blind eye to the wreckless lending by the bank were just as guilty as any sean dunne or michael fitz

its a truly extrordinary form of rationale

Rob67

This thread is dissolving into another rant against the wider Public Service, it should stop, it is going nowhere fast.

irish_bob

jake59 wrote: »

I'd love to know where you witnessed all these first hand. While in the guards i have seen members prosecuted for drink driving and would wonder how a clamper or traffic warden would know an illegally parked car was owned by a guard. People always have their own views about particular jobs and even more so about the guards but to be throwing up statements that you seem to see a lot of things relating to guards first hand either means that you have a very active imagination or you hang around with a member who seems to have a bit of a problem. have you ever seen anything else firsthand?

ive an uncle who is now a retired guard and an uncle in law who is still an inspector based in dublin , both are fine men but ive been in the car with both when theyve flashed thier badges at the M- 50 toll bridge , the guy who is still an inspector recently added on an extension to his house , he is extremley good with his hands and done everything himself , the local hire centre provided him a cement mixer , consaw and power float for free during the job , the reason i know this is because he told me himself

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

ive an uncle who is now a retired guard and an uncle in law who is still an inspector based in dublin , both are fine men but ive been in the car with both when theyve flashed thier badges at the M- 50 toll bridge , the guy who is still an inspector recently added on an extension to his house , he is extremley good with his hands and done everything himself , the local hire centre provided him a cement mixer , consaw and power float for free during the job , the reason i know this is because he told me himself

Anecdotal evidence, unfortunately. I'm not doubting the veracity of your statement but it is only anecdotal. Try to understand, I'm not having a go at you personally, I can give anecdotal evidence on my entire army career (some of which may actually be true!) but it's only anecdotal evidence in the long run.

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence, unfortunately. I'm not doubting the veracity of your statement but it is only anecdotal. Try to understand, I'm not having a go at you personally, I can give anecdotal evidence on my entire army career (some of which may actually be true!) but it's only anecdotal evidence in the long run.

ok

jake59

irish_bob wrote: »

the local hire centre provided him a cement mixer , consaw and power float for free during the job , the reason i know this is because he told me himself

The local hire centre may have done this as your uncle may have been a friend of his and may have done it regardless of your uncle's job. Friends do help friends ye know.

gent9662

jake59 wrote: »

The local hire centre may have done this as your uncle may have been a friend of his and may have done it regardless of your uncle's job. Friends do help friends ye know.

Come on get real. You guys are the highest paid with the most holidays of any other public servants. Are you telling me you have never flashed your Garda badge on the train or bus? Flashed it getting on the Luas? Flashed it going into bars, clubs, restaurants? Worked overtime at events such as rugby matches, soccer internationals?

If you haven't, you must be the Elliot Ness of the gardai!

gent9662

jake59 wrote: »

I'd love to know where you witnessed all these first hand. While in the guards i have seen members prosecuted for drink driving and would wonder how a clamper or traffic warden would know an illegally parked car was owned by a guard. People always have their own views about particular jobs and even more so about the guards but to be throwing up statements that you seem to see a lot of things relating to guards first hand either means that you have a very active imagination or you hang around with a member who seems to have a bit of a problem. have you ever seen anything else firsthand?

Highest paid public sector body in Ireland, Europe and World - FACT!
Huge amount of off duty time next to teachers - FACT!
Allowances coming out your nose - FACT!
Travel allowances for getting to work - FACT!
Massive Overtime allowances - FACT!
100% job security - FACT!
Garda drinking club - FACT!
Garda sports and social club - FACT!
Paid training straight after leaving cert - FACT!

Here's some more:

BASIC
+ shift allowance
+ rent allowance tax free(€4,160)
+ uniform allowance
+ boot allowance
+ away from station for the day allowance(airport passport guys + other moving prisoners from x to y)
+ overtime(easily availible, perhaps reduced now)
+ handy days standing around croke park (€200euro from what i'm told)
+ scheduling a ten minute court appearance on your day off knowing that you'll get paid for the minimum 5hours you get under union agreements that state you must be paid this minimum time regardless of your actual time worked(been told first hand about this)
+Garda credit union(cheap loans how many apartments have you rented from Garda i've been in 3 apartments all owned by garda in the last 5 years, 3 friends have garda landlords)
+health insurance for you and married partner
+ if put on clerical duty(9-5) an allowance to compensate you for the allowances your missing by not working unsocial hours
+ while on holiday pay an allowance to cover the overtime/allowance you could have potentiallly got if you weren't on the beach basically unsocial hours work allowance even though your not in
+ plain clothes allowance, if your plain clothes garda to buy your own clothes
+Gaeltacht Allowance and Aran Island Allowance
+ retire @ 50 with full pension(lump sum+payments)

Cost:
Rent allowance costs €58 million Its paid to every member up to and including superintendent.

Premium Payments (€9.07m) Paid to those on holiday who would normally be eligible for unsociable hours allowance.

Clerical Allowance (€2.07m) paid to cops doing paperwork to make up for the allowances they are loosing out on because they are basically clerical staff.
Gaeltacht Allowance and Aran Island Allowance (€1.2m) (its value is 7.5 per cent of basic pay)

Uniform Grant and Allowance and Boot Allowance (€5.4 m)

Plain Clothes Allowance (€1.9m)

Non-Public Duty Allowances (€1.7m)

FACT: Normal pay after 2 years probation is €1,207 a week! - FACT

Why are they even thinking of striking?

omahaid

dclane wrote: »

FACT: Normal pay after 2 years probation is €1,207 a week! - FACT

You sure about this one? According to the CSO that is the average Garda salary (including overtime, so it wouldnt be "normal"). Doesn't make sense that it would be the normal pay after two years if it is average as you would expect the majority of gardai to be on the force more than two years.