End of Time Part 1 (New Trailer)

spongeman

The only decent finale Ive seen was Parting of the ways.

Can they deliver this time ?

Doctor DooM

spongeman wrote: »

The only decent finale Ive seen was Parting of the ways.

Can they deliver this time ?

Well, it's going to deliver a regeneration and the

return of the timelords,

so in a sense it'd have to really feck up not to deliver!

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Apart from the last 2 minutes or so, it was shockingly bad... very boring...
Let's hope next week will, be good, because it'd be a terrible way for Tennant to go if we get another episode like this.

BlitzKrieg

Meh for the most part...

unless

the whole *master being broken*

aspect is not tied in as some important plot point in the second half then they essentially wasted over half of this episode on useless padding just so it was a 2 parter.

That said I was convinced I had it sussed up until the last minute so I give it credit for throwing a spanner in my thoughts

I thought the master was some giant chameleon arch storing the entire of galifray and he was brought back because they knew he would run and could survive the time war. And I was convinced of this up until he jumped into the machine and expected him to recreate galifray on earth. In fact the machine at the end was a bit stupid. They say it copies someone's genetics to be a medical station for an entire planet...But I assume that didnt mean it copied one person endlessly and instead corrected everyone else to match that one person health wise. So 1 healthy person heals a planet of being sick, 1 timelord turns the entire human race into timelords. That was my understanding which was wrong

aside from that, yeah it was a bit stupid and John Simm is varying from entertaining when he goes on some sort of ramble (like the drums bit) but looks goofy and crap when he is jumping around like the hunter from left 4 dead mixed with raiden from mortal kombat.

Despite being Tennants last story not alot of attention on him aside from that brief bit in the cafe bit.

also

my money is on wilfred moth killing the doctor

ToniTuddle

Stark wrote: »

Mostly meh but I enjoyed the last few minutes. Can't go wrong with a planet full of John Simms and Timelords

Can't go wrong with a planet full of him is right!!!

And I do agree with that bet of

Wilf ending up killing the Doc

. Difficult for him listening to that

woman who appeared on the telly.....should he believe her...why believe her over the Doctor! But I guess he thinks he is, as the woman says...possibly saving the Doctors life.

Really looking forward to New Years now!

spongeman

Guys Im going to disagree with most of ye here, and say I enjoyed it a lot because of Simm. He was fantastic.

My worry now is that I thought Doomsday/LOTTL/Journeys End were all big letdowns after excellent previous episodes. Hopefully he wont f**K it up this time.

Mr E

I wasn't blown away by it. Watched it at midnight last night and fell asleep half way through it. Had to rewind it when I woke up. I think it was all build up for next weeks episode, so that'll be the one to judge.

spongeman

Must have been that ten bottles of wine ye had yesterday......

Im still trying to get that image of Simm in a pink dress out of my head !

ixoy

Mixed feelings about this. There was lots of RTD OTT moments and

this episode, even by the show's low standards for it, didn't seem to give a crap about the science in science fiction with the ridiculous restoration ritual for the Master.

The Master himself flying around the place and shooting energy from his hands was a bit daft. Simms' performance varied - at times his manical cackle just grew tiresome. I know it's the Master and I can well recall Delgado's excellent laugh, but you can tone it down. His little rant about Christmas was also a bit forced. Having said that, it was quite amusing when he copied himself over everybody and we had him cheering himself on. Particularly since it stopped an annoying Obama-love moment. Quite like the idea of the Master eveywhere.

The Doctor was grand enough in this. I quite liked the scene with Wilfred in the café - nicely done. Wilfred again would make a good companion for the Doctor as he's down-to-earth without the histronics of his other companions.

I would have felt more down on the episode except for the last thirty seconds - I had no idea they were going to bring them back. I'd like to think Moffat will restore them in some form and remove a bit of the haunted/emo element of the Doctor being the last of his people.

It has potential with the Time Lord's return for the second part but I still fear RTD is going to ramp up the running, explosions, manic laughter, and Kitchen Sink monsters next week.

Stark

I would have thought that being the most "epic" finale yet, that the first part would have focused on the Time War and the destruction of Galifrey as opposed to the Master's food cravings. Disappointing in that regard. RTD seems to concentrate solely on the shouting and explosions when doing "epic" but fails to deliver good setup and buildup. It would also have justified the use of the title "End of time".

rossie1977

spongeman wrote: »

Guys Im going to disagree with most of ye here, and say I enjoyed it a lot because of Simm. He was fantastic.

i just cannot take simm seriously in the role, he is just so cheesy and i thought he was great in life on mars but playing the bad guy no way, i was just waiting for him to start waving and dancing around lo and behold it came at the end

he would be perfect playing the master alongside sly mc coy though

BuffyBot

The whole Simm flying around the place like a sub-budget Nathan Petrelli was pointless. Energy crackles, I could just about deal with..but that just sucked. The restoration scene was beyond panto crap, and even by RTD's standards it was crud. Lucy Saxon was wasted.

The Wilfred/Doctor moment in the cafe was fantastically played. It's kind of nice to see the Doctor contemplating his regeneration and not just "falling off a cliff" and boom. It shows us a side we've not nessecarily seen before - did all his other incarnations share the same fear/dread? Though I did wonder why they didn't explore how he understands what the 11th doctor will feel like and that he essentially lives on through him etc. Probably had to make room for some more Master jumping around.

The Naismiths are annoying, and seem slightly pointless. I predict both will be dead by the end of next week. I'd be interested to see if the Doctor uses the Immortality Gate to cure Donna.

Timothy Dalton was fantastic - but frankly, he could read the phone book and make it interesting

Next week should be interesting, none the less.

ToniTuddle

BuffyBot wrote: »

I'd be interested to see if the Doctor uses the Immortality Gate to cure Donna.

If he does this....doesn't that mean not only will

she be cured but also immortal?

Timothy was excellent but..... >.> ..... he did spit a bit when he was speaking at the end!

Killer_banana

Very disappointed with it and think the whole 'Master Race' thing is ridiculous. Still the next episode looks promising so I haven't given up yet. RTD has made some decisions which have annoyed me and seemed stupid in the past but he has always managed to redeem himself to some degree so maybe I'll end up loving it, who knows?. The cafe scene was one of the best moments in the episode and I thought the Silver cloak were hilarious. I'm very interested in the fact that the drums in the Master's head could be more than just a symptom of his madness and I can't wait to see how the Timelords have returned. That said I don't like the idea of RTD pressing the reset button. I understand that it's so Scott Moffat has more freedom to go where he wants to go with the show but that said if he wants the Timelords back or the last five years to have been a dream (I hope not) or whatever then that should be written when he is the writer and given the story-telling they need rather than all of it to be shoved into two hours. It could be amazing but it would be more amazing if it was given the devotion it warrants in my opinion.

The majority of this episode was clearly set-up and think a lot less people would be complaining if this was shown as one special two-hour long episode than a two parter as the first half would only be a quarter and the boring-ness of it (I didn't mind it too much but a lot of people seem have found it mind-numbing) wouldn't seem such a big deal (does that makes any sense?)

As for the episode being mis-named. I don't think it is. The Ood said they have been having bad dreams and I don't see why they would have them if time wans't ending for them too. They didn't say what they dreamed of so it might not be the master, after all was it not mentioned by someone (I have a terrible memory) during the episode that he is only a small part of the end of time? What has happened so far may only be what kicks-tarts the whole thing. Although my faith in RTD is quite shaky so the Ood's dreams may just be a very big plothole. :S I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

ixoy

Killer_banana wrote: »

hat said I don't like the idea of RTD pressing the reset button. I understand that it's so Scott Moffat has more freedom to go where he wants to go with the show but that said if he wants the Timelords back or the last five years to have been a dream (I hope not) or whatever then that should be written when he is the writer and given the story-telling they need rather than all of it to be shoved into two hours.

I doubt he would have been allowed to, to be honest. As the show's producer, RTD would have had control over a massive arc shift like reintroducing the Time Lords. He didn't want the Time Lords back under his watch so he wouldn't have wanted any hint to the contrary, bar the Master. It didn't fit into his image of the Doctor as the last of the Time Lords.

Moffat seems to be much more "old school", and would rather go back to the archetype of the Doctor as a renegade from his people, a maverick instead. I'd prefer this - I never liked the idea of the Time Lords being wiped out (especially when it was off screen). The Doctor as a bit of an outsider works better for me. Is the Doctor still President of Gallifrey? (I know he's not in the books, but that doesn't count generally).

Doctor DooM

ixoy wrote: »

I doubt he would have been allowed to, to be honest. As the show's producer, RTD would have had control over a massive arc shift like reintroducing the Time Lords. He didn't want the Time Lords back under his watch so he wouldn't have wanted any hint to the contrary, bar the Master. It didn't fit into his image of the Doctor as the last of the Time Lords.

Moffat seems to be much more "old school", and would rather go back to the archetype of the Doctor as a renegade from his people, a maverick instead. I'd prefer this - I never liked the idea of the Time Lords being wiped out (especially when it was off screen). The Doctor as a bit of an outsider works better for me. Is the Doctor still President of Gallifrey? (I know he's not in the books, but that doesn't count generally).

I never minded the "Last of the time lords". Before it was milked, there was a pathos I liked about the eternal lonliness. RTD did manage some nice moments with the idea too, on occasion.

I preferred the idea of that to the "renegade time cop" which the Doctor was. That's just me though, there's a whole world of new stories in renegade Doctor.

Still, this is RTD we're talking about. The time lords could all be retconned away by the end of the next episode.

pixelburp

I just saw it tonight after using the Sky recorder ... and oh. My. God.

That was the most embarrassing 60 minutes of Doctor Who I have watched since Sylvester McCoy gurned his way onto screens.

Seriously, where do you even start picking apart that sub-pantomime, bombastic, roughshod piece of nonsense I just watched? I actually thought RTD would at least try and bow out with a well-written piece of Who - and god knows we know he can when he wants to - but instead we got this?

I'm not sure I want to spoiler-tag my comments because I would actively dissuade people from watching this any way I can. Even so ...

- The "Potion of Life" that brought back the Master was jaw-droppingly bad. What is this? Harry Potter and the Deus Ex Machina? I know the magical master-race machine later on is as bad, but potions?? POTIONS? Argh!

- While I'm at it, Lucy Saxon's Anti Potion of Life. Plus the accompanying "aha, but while you were planning, I was concocting an antidote blah blah blah" ... Argh!

- The whole "President Obama's Speech" subplot. Oh dear jumping Jesus that annoyed me. Not even a secondary school student would write a screenplay with such clunky dialogue; why would a chiplady tell a pair of hobos - in the United bloody Kingdom - about President Obama's Xmas speech (that'll apparently cure the recession)? If this was meant as some parody of the Obama hype, RTD's about a year behind the times there. Argh!

- As you may have gathered, I didn't think the dialogue overall was much cop. Bloody awful, start to finish. Argh!

- Would somebody turn down the bloody music please, my ears are bleeding! Argh!

- Wait, The Master is now super-powered? Lightning bolts from his hands? Jumping tall quarries with a single bound? Was this done just so we could have that melodramatic Doctor-faces-down-the-Master scene? Argh!

- Oh let's get to David Tennant. You may have slightly redeemed yourself with that quiet café scene (it was the only quiet scene), but either side of that, the grinning, OTT body language, shouting, hammy acting is just too much. Plus considering the last episode we saw the Doctor as an a$$hole, his sudden cocky demeanor is a bit much ...

- Oh look, comedy green aliens with silly names. How endearingly ... Argh! (oh and the female's make-up was showing)

- I'm sorry, did the whole planet just turn into Masters? Am I supposed to feel shocked by John Simm jumping up and down in a women's cardigan? Well I guess I am but still, that's pathetic. It also again involves another typical RTD trope - the "magical" machine. ... Argh!

- Oh look, the Time Lords are back & seem to have spittle problems. Wait, where has this come from? Argh!

That was terrible; honestly and truthfully, that was as bad as any of the old series' clunkers. No no, I take that back, it was worse; because whereas in later years the old series was moribund, nobody was watching it & the writers just shot the breeze with bizarre, "zany" scripts. Now it's apparently an award-winning, much loved show produced by some of the best creative talent in Britain.

What we get though is a show that has nothing but contempt for its own internal logic, basic science, the show's mythology, actors (except for Bernard Cribbens, bless his soul), the whole lot.

In fact, its a show that hates its own audience. I know a big portion of the audience are children but does that mean all semblance of sense, drama & common sense must go out the window? Children aren't idiots ffs.

Damnit, I'm going off to watch "The Caves of Androzani"; dodgy monster aside, that's how you do a dramatic, tragic, emotionally powerful last Doctor story. This is just amateur drama gone wrong.

I will tell you what; if there's a dramatic plunge in the ratings for part 2 - and after that nonsense I wouldn't be surprised - you could find Moffat with a huge mountain to climb, even if he changes the tone of the show (oh god, please change the tone of the show). I would go so far as to put money down on Season 5 being the last.

I'll tell you another thing; suddenly my antipathy for Matt Smith has vanished. I welcome him & Moffat with open arms (plus the new assistant, she looks like a honey).

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

I'll tell you another thing; suddenly my antipathy for Matt Smith has vanished. I welcome him & Moffat with open arms (plus the new assistant, she looks like a honey).

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!

Seriously though, is there a correllation between critically poorly received episodes and dips in ratings?

Cos if so... Alot of the specials havn't been amazing.

pixelburp

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!

Seriously though, is there a correllation between critically poorly received episodes and dips in ratings?

Cos if so... Alot of the specials havn't been amazing.

Haha, ok, a touch of the mega-rant there, but in all fairness, that was a woeful piece of television. Sure the new series could be silly, but that episode just felt like a writer who has stopped bothering & is writing any old b0llicks he can think of. Even Red Dwarf had better internal logic and science than this

I imagine the first part has got some pretty big ratings, mostly cos of the whole "last David Tennant story" angle. I expect a drop-off, there usually has been in 2 parters afaik. I just imagine a lot of ppl like myself will just throw their hands up and say "whatever, I couldn't be arsed anymore!"

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

Haha, ok, a touch of the mega-rant there, but in all fairness, that was a woeful piece of television. Sure the new series could be silly, but that episode just felt like a writer who has stopped bothering & is writing any old b0llicks he can think of. Even Red Dwarf had better internal logic and science than this

I imagine the first part has got some pretty big ratings, mostly cos of the whole "last David Tennant story" angle. I expect a drop-off, there usually has been in 2 parters afaik. I just imagine a lot of ppl like myself will just throw their hands up and say "whatever, I couldn't be arsed anymore!"

Got to be honest, I gave up on internal consistency a while back. It's not something I should have to do, it makes the show suffer.

I'm looking forward to moffats take, he always seemed to pay a little more attention to it.

ixoy

Wow - I thought I ranted against the RTD machine but I've got nothing on pixelburp!

I already said I disliked the potion piece, but now that I think about it - I hate it. I don't want some crap about high science seeming like magic as it's just weak. 'Doctor Who' should have some scientific basis to it, even if it's only tentatively plausible (there's a reason there's a book "The Science of Doctor Who"). This nonsense makes less sense than "The Daemons".

The music has nearly always been overly dramatic, so it suits the episode...

Super Master - he's got too much Goobledygook energy in him so he can fly? Really?

I would have liked to have seen more consistency between the out-of-control Doctor we saw in "The Waters of Mars" and this. I'm guessing we're meant to believe that he recovered in the episodes in between, before he met the Ood. If that's the case what was the bloody point of setting up such characterisation? Why do it all? Will we get some pay off in the finale?

I'll leave the Time Lords return until next week. If they're from a parallel universe, I'm hunting down RTD. If they're a result of some time shenanigans that we see next week, I'm hunting down RTD. We deserve a good answer - so I'll probably be going a hunting.

The regeneration stories have varied in the past. "The Tenth Planet" was a weak send off for Hartnell, basically having him getting tired and regenerating.
"The War Games" didn't even show us the 2nd-3rd regeneration.
"Planet of the Spiders" (3rd-4th) was bog-standard so wasn't a great send off (not awful either, just a bit weak and forgettable).
"Logopolis" (4th-5th) was good though and I really liked the idea of The Watcher. You could argue that it brought in some voodoo mysticism but it worked and the actual death itself was fitting.
"The Caves of Androzani" (5th-6th) is not just the best regeneration story, but is actually just one of the best stories in the show's 30 seasons. It was very intelligent and adult and would have no problem standing up against Moffat's outputs. The Doctor's death here was poweful and meaningful and I still think Sharez Jek is one of the moust outstanding villains ever to grace the show. Its grounded approach is the opposite of the bombastic effort we've seen so far here.
"Time and the Rani" (6th-7th). Err, well I'll use what pixelburp said - the show was no longer popular. Let's move on.
"Doctor Who - The TV Movie" (7th-8th). Well it wasn't proper Doctor Who.

.. and then we're into the new series.

From what I've seen the show's legacy is owed a bit more. I think what we're seeing is, sadly, fitting in with RTD's general approach to the show. I'm with pixelburp - and have thought this for a while - that we might see a more thoughtful, toned down, approach to the show for its 31st season. I'd like to think that the next time we see the Doctor re-generate, we can feel confident that the show can take us back to a Time Lord's valiant and courageous effort to cure spectrox toximeia. Not having to do something outlandish goal to save time itself - but something more personal fighting for the people he cares about.

doctorwhogirl

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to spoiler-tag my comments because I would actively dissuade people from watching this any way I can. Even so ...

- The "Potion of Life" that brought back the Master was jaw-droppingly bad. What is this? Harry Potter and the Deus Ex Machina? I know the magical master-race machine later on is as bad, but potions?? POTIONS? Argh!

- While I'm at it, Lucy Saxon's Anti Potion of Life. Plus the accompanying "aha, but while you were planning, I was concocting an antidote blah blah blah" ... Argh!

- The whole "President Obama's Speech" subplot. Oh dear jumping Jesus that annoyed me. Not even a secondary school student would write a screenplay with such clunky dialogue; why would a chiplady tell a pair of hobos - in the United bloody Kingdom - about President Obama's Xmas speech (that'll apparently cure the recession)? If this was meant as some parody of the Obama hype, RTD's about a year behind the times there. Argh!

Agree with pretty much all of this on the whole. I think there was a general idea in RTD's head all along and he had to find some way of getting it into the story. This he did without any thought process behind it. " Magic Potions" as you said. I agree, this was an episode particularly lacking in the "science" of science fiction.
Also, pretty much agree with the Obama thing, I think that (like the Big Brother game show stuff of series 27) this will age terribly.

- As you may have gathered, I didn't think the dialogue overall was much cop. Bloody awful, start to finish. Argh!

Don't necessarily agree with this. Thought the café scene was beautiful. As someone said previously it explored an aspect of regeneration that we hadn't heard the Doc's opinion on before. I also thought the Master's speech at the end had enough gravity in it for the moment. (and the spit was a nice touch!!)

- Would somebody turn down the bloody music please, my ears are bleeding! Argh!

I have to say I love the music, always have, but they haven't the volume quite right in truth!!! But then I listen to the shonk that came out of the BBC sound department in the Doctor's past and I thank the lord for Murray Gold!!!

- Oh look, comedy green aliens with silly names. How endearingly ... Argh! (oh and the female's make-up was showing)

You know sometimes I find myself getting annoyed too when these aspects pop up in the programme. But then I remember that they have to remember the kiddies too.... (Although they did seem to forget about them when they were showing yer wan as a skeleton in the take away van!!!!)

I welcome him & Moffat with open arms (plus the new assistant, she looks like a honey).

This made me laugh!!! You can't handle the comedy green aliens yet you feel a "honey" in the new series will redeem all these faults!?!

Apologies pixelburp! Not focusing in on you in a tyrade of anger but you made a bloody good post (on the whole!! ) And I agree with you on the most part!

For me, it was classic RTD throwing in everything but the kitchen sink.
Part two looks to be a definite improvement ( I hope!)
I've generally enjoyed RTD's time at the helm but I think it was better suited to Torchwood. Moffat's hopefully back to basics approach will be a breath of fresh air.

But I'm still SO annoyed at them giving him a young glamorous assistant. These moments with Wilf have reminded me of what could have been had they gone for a character like that. Grrr........

To be honest... Time Lords are back. This make me one happy person. And those little wonders that Wilf gave us made it all worthwhile!

(Also agree with the ending being very Being John Malkovich...and as a fan of the movie I liked it!)

Just saw this!

ixoy wrote: »

I'd like to think that the next time we see the Doctor re-generate, we can feel confident that the show can take us back to a Time Lord's valiant and courageous effort to cure spectrox toximeia. Not having to do something outlandish goal to save time itself - but something more personal fighting for the people he cares about.

Couldn't agree more. Not EVERY finale has to culminate in him saving the world. The world manages ok right up until the finales then BOOM!!! The doctor meeting a nemesis like the Watcher (as you noted) can be much more interesting.

spongeman

There has to be one person out there who agrees with me that Simm is a great master.

Is there anybody out there ......................

Doctor DooM

spongeman wrote: »

There has to be one person out there who agrees with me that Simm is a great master.

Is there anybody out there ......................

I really like Simm as the Master.

If anything sucks about his portrayal I would put it down to the writing, I always enjoy his screen time tbh.

starn

spongeman wrote: »

There has to be one person out there who agrees with me that Simm is a great master.

Is there anybody out there ......................

No
Overall I thought the it was a pile of poo. But I didnt really expect anything more from RTD. I also found the voice over grating and cheesy

BlitzKrieg

I thought he worked really well in season 3

but thats because they spent the whole f*cking season working up to him and his slightly ott behaviour had a tint of menace to it. Give him

lightning bolts and highjumps

and he just looks stupid.

I really hope that the whole first half of this episode

(the stupid potion and master being half back)

will have some semblance of a point in the next episode because otherwise they wasted 40 minutes of this episode on bollocks.

Hell even him working under

the billionaire

for 40 minutes would have worked better then what they gave us.

starn

Bernard Cribbins was fantastic

spongeman

ixoy wrote: »

I doubt he would have been allowed to, to be honest. As the show's producer, RTD would have had control over a massive arc shift like reintroducing the Time Lords. He didn't want the Time Lords back under his watch so he wouldn't have wanted any hint to the contrary, bar the Master. It didn't fit into his image of the Doctor as the last of the Time Lords.

Moffat seems to be much more "old school", and would rather go back to the archetype of the Doctor as a renegade from his people, a maverick instead. I'd prefer this - I never liked the idea of the Time Lords being wiped out (especially when it was off screen). The Doctor as a bit of an outsider works better for me. Is the Doctor still President of Gallifrey? (I know he's not in the books, but that doesn't count generally).

Im looking forward to Moffat's reign myself, I have enjoyed all his episodes. Although I have the feeling this Timelords reintroduction is a temporary one.

RTD has not been able to deliver the final episode I have hoped for, eg I enjoyed Utopia & SOD, but LOTTL was very disappointing. Same with Turn Left & Stolen Earth, and then a poor Journey's End.

Thats why I am a bit nervous about Friday, as I enjoyed Part One a lot.

Jenroche

Does anyone know if part 1 is being shown again before part 2 airs? As somebody mentioned earlier, the volume mix for music and dialogue is off balance. I kept turning it up to hear the dialogue but then the music was blaring out and the parents were complaining so didn't catch a lot of what was said. :mad:

I'm highly dubious about this two-parter. I used to be a fan of RTD but since he ruined Torchwood for me I've been counting the days until he hands Dr Who over to Moffat. The end of The Waters of Mars just seemed to totally out of character the way the Doctor behaved. Felt like RTD was just twisting the plot to suit himself.

While I love John Simm as the Master, I felt he was written very over the top. They could have made him just as dark and disturbing without all the shouting, eating and jumping around.

Time Lords returning? Well, this remains to be seen if this is good/bad/temporary plotline. Could be good. Could be very bad. Who knows?

I'm going to miss David Tennant. I wasn't sure about him when he took over from Chris Eccleston (who I thought was an amazing Doctor btw) but by the end of the first episode he was in I was won over. My biggest problem with Matt Smith is that he's so young. The Doctor has always been older than me (or in DT's case, the same age) up till now. But that's me just feeling old, let's give the chap a chance.

Jen

spongeman

Its on BBC3 tonight at 7pm.

Personally I found all the masters in dresses etc funny and disturbing at the same time. Simm certainly was in his element, hamming it up.

Sure its a very different take on the master than the old series, but maybe thats not a bad thing. Simm has to play the role in a more modern way, in his way. Delgado and Ainley had different personalities, and played it their ways. All very well I may add.