End of Time Part 1 (New Trailer)

pixelburp

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

Agree with pretty much all of this on the whole. I think there was a general idea in RTD's head all along and he had to find some way of getting it into the story. This he did without any thought process behind it. " Magic Potions" as you said. I agree, this was an episode particularly lacking in the "science" of science fiction.

Funny thing is, all RTD had to do was reference his own previous work that brought the Master back in the first place, rather than make up the potion nonsense. He gave himself a perfect get-out-of-jail card & he ignored it!
We know that the Time Lords can store a Time Lord's personality in a Box-o'-Science™, so a simple - and more believable - plot device would have been a blank DNA clone of the Master's body, coupled with one of those Timelord pocket watches. Bing! The Master's back & we can all move on. At least then it's a bit more "sciency". Instead we got Nathan Petrelli on Coke.

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

Don't necessarily agree with this. Thought the café scene was beautiful. As someone said previously it explored an aspect of regeneration that we hadn't heard the Doc's opinion on before. I also thought the Master's speech at the end had enough gravity in it for the moment. (and the spit was a nice touch!!)

Ok, it wasn't totally bad, but a lot of the dialogue felt like it was setting up the plot more than anything. Which was a shame because RTD has written some snappy, nice dialogue.

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

You know sometimes I find myself getting annoyed too when these aspects pop up in the programme. But then I remember that they have to remember the kiddies too.... (Although they did seem to forget about them when they were showing yer wan as a skeleton in the take away van!!!!)

Ach, I'll never begrudge the kiddies their fun & to be fair that's what those aliens were there for. It just seemed like one more annoyance in a long littany

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

This made me laugh!!! You can't handle the comedy green aliens yet you feel a "honey" in the new series will redeem all these faults!?!

hehe, no I was joking here in my defence Honestly I'm very disappointed they went with another piece of shallow eye candy for the new series.
If nothing else I thought Moffat had more cleverness than just to have another generic female companion. I was hoping - given how young the new Doctor is - they would go for an older companion for contrast. They did that in some of the fan fiction / audio & it worked well. It worked well with Donna in the end; hell, Wilf would be fantastic. Sure, he wouldn't be much good for the endless running scenes, but that's the script-writer's problem.

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

Apologies pixelburp! Not focusing in on you in a tyrade of anger but you made a bloody good post (on the whole!! ) And I agree with you on the most part!

You didn't strike as being angry Yes reading my rant does suggest me being a tad on the foamy-mouth, but I was genuinely disappointed and annoyed with that episode. Like I said previously, writing for children shouldn't mean you just jettison all attempts at a coherent script; the best "children"s TV or film has always been the one that entertains the adults as much as the children. Kids aren't idiots, they can handle some deep enough concepts & darkness.

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

[...]
I've generally enjoyed RTD's time at the helm but I think it was better suited to Torchwood. Moffat's hopefully back to basics approach will be a breath of fresh air.

Agian, this is another source of annoyment. Torchwood: Children of the Earth was kick-ass, and for me redeemed RTD in my eyes, showing that he can indeed write good sci-fi.

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

But I'm still SO annoyed at them giving him a young glamorous assistant. These moments with Wilf have reminded me of what could have been had they gone for a character like that. Grrr........

Agree, as I mentioned earlier I was hoping for an older companion to contrast nicely with the "young" Doctor.

doctorwhogirl wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. Not EVERY finale has to culminate in him saving the world. The world manages ok right up until the finales then BOOM!!! The doctor meeting a nemesis like the Watcher (as you noted) can be much more interesting.

I think this again comes back to the idea of writing for children; that children apparently can't understand personal tragedies, or small-scale disaster. That only with fairytale End-of-the-world scenarios will you get their attention.

Doctor DooM

I wouldn't judge amy pond until we actually see the character in action. Sally Sparrow was also quite the slamming hotty but she was also a really likeable character which made her episode work.

spongeman

I think a young companion is better for the 11th doctor myself. Smith is going to need to be given time to grow into the role.

Ive been watching this show since the start of the Pertwee era, and the Pertwee to Baker and Baker to Davidson regenerations were the ones that had me wondering "how can they replace these 2 guys", as Jon and Tom were and still are my favourites.

Now another important junction approaches, but I think under Moffat he will be fine.

Killer_banana

A few people have mentioned the show being directed at kids and how this affects the plot and I'd just like to voice my opinion on this subject as it's something that's been pissing me off for ages.

I have watched some Old Who but very little and not nearly enough to act like I know anything about it. That said it is easy to see for anyone that a lot of the storylines were a lot darker and a lot of the villians a lot scarier both visually (for their time anyways) and characteristacly. Anyone who grew up with old Doctor Who talks about how it used to scare them and how they loved that fact. Nowadays it would seem this world is so politically correct and concerned about children's mental health that you're not allowed scare them anymore. So no dark storylines and no aliens that aren't boldly coloured and have at least one ridiculous feature which makes you laugh out loud at it's crappiness. I will admit that the aliens in Waters of Mars were pretty creepy but on Confidential it showed them discussing their appearance and that was as scary as they were allowed go which isn't really that far at all. Also the story line was pretty dark by New Who standards but it still had that retarded robot and the really terrible chase scene. I just wish that the BBC would realise that Doctor Who is meant to push the boundaries a bit when it comes to scaring children. Maybe the old shows were a bit too frightening and violent for children but they could at least include more villains which are slightly frightening. Ugh I'm going to shut up now cos I was meant to be making a point but instead it just became an uber-rant.

Oh one more thing. The Doctor's confidence and demeanor may seem out of place considering how he acted at the end of WOM but it isn't too strange. His conversation with the Ood suggests that a lot of time has passed since the last episode, if not for Earth then definitely for the Doctor so that would explain the change. Also in the cafe with Wilf he does reveal he's not as happy and at ease as he seems. I don't know, that's how I see but I'm overly analytical about these things....

ixoy

pixelburp wrote: »

If nothing else I thought Moffat had more cleverness than just to have another generic female companion. I was hoping - given how young the new Doctor is - they would go for an older companion for contrast. They did that in some of the fan fiction / audio & it worked well. It worked well with Donna in the end; hell, Wilf would be fantastic. Sure, he wouldn't be much good for the endless running scenes, but that's the script-writer's problem.

I'd have loved Wilfred as a companion because, as you say, it would offer a nice contrast (and it helps that Bernard Cribbins brings some of the best performances of the show's new incarnation). I also hoped Moffat would do something like this. Part of me wonders whether the Beeb bosses nudged him towards this end. Another part wonders if Moffat's going to play against our expectations and go for the old man trapped in a young man's body.

Like I said previously, writing for children shouldn't mean you just jettison all attempts at a coherent script; the best "children"s TV or film has always been the one that entertains the adults as much as the children. Kids aren't idiots, they can handle some deep enough concepts & darkness.

Quite - that's why "it's a children's show" does not work for me as an excuse for some of the crap we've had to put up with. You can write smartly for kids, and give them emotional drama as a point rather than just explosions, running, and end-of-the-world scenarios.
A case in point is the underappreciated "The Sarah Jane Adventures". The show, with its Trickster series, has made some extremely poignant episodes centred around Sarah Jane and her loneliness, making a character's happiness a focal point alongside the sci-fi. It's low key and works well - it's one that treats kids often more intelligently than its father.

Agian, this is another source of annoyment. Torchwood: Children of the Earth was kick-ass, and for me redeemed RTD in my eyes, showing that he can indeed write good sci-fi.

That's why RTD is so frustrating. "Children of Earth" showed he's capable of writing strong sci-fi, dealing with adult situations. We know he can do great character moments, we know he can do thoughtful, so why doesn't he show this skill more often?

spongeman

Killer_banana wrote: »

A few people have mentioned the show being directed at kids and how this affects the plot and I'd just like to voice my opinion on this subject as it's something that's been pissing me off for ages.

I have watched some Old Who but very little and not nearly enough to act like I know anything about it. That said it is easy to see for anyone that a lot of the storylines were a lot darker and a lot of the villians a lot scarier both visually (for their time anyways) and characteristacly. Anyone who grew up with old Doctor Who talks about how it used to scare them and how they loved that fact. Nowadays it would seem this world is so politically correct and concerned about children's mental health that you're not allowed scare them anymore. So no dark storylines and no aliens that aren't boldly coloured and have at least one ridiculous feature which makes you laugh out loud at it's crappiness. I will admit that the aliens in Waters of Mars were pretty creepy but on Confidential it showed them discussing their appearance and that was as scary as they were allowed go which isn't really that far at all. Also the story line was pretty dark by New Who standards but it still had that retarded robot and the really terrible chase scene. I just wish that the BBC would realise that Doctor Who is meant to push the boundaries a bit when it comes to scaring children. Maybe the old shows were a bit too frightening and violent for children but they could at least include more villains which are slightly frightening. Ugh I'm going to shut up now cos I was meant to be making a point but instead it just became an uber-rant.

Oh one more thing. The Doctor's confidence and demeanor may seem out of place considering how he acted at the end of WOM but it isn't too strange. His conversation with the Ood suggests that a lot of time has passed since the last episode, if not for Earth then definitely for the Doctor so that would explain the change. Also in the cafe with Wilf he does reveal he's not as happy and at ease as he seems. I don't know, that's how I see but I'm overly analytical about these things....

You are right with a lot of your points there.

Doctor DooM

ixoy wrote: »

That's why RTD is so frustrating. "Children of Earth" showed he's capable of writing strong sci-fi, dealing with adult situations. We know he can do great character moments, we know he can do thoughtful, so why doesn't he show this skill more often?

QFT. He's done the absolute worst AND some of the very best. frustrating's not the word!

pixelburp

Killer_banana wrote: »

I have watched some Old Who but very little and not nearly enough to act like I know anything about it. That said it is easy to see for anyone that a lot of the storylines were a lot darker and a lot of the villians a lot scarier both visually (for their time anyways) and characteristacly. Anyone who grew up with old Doctor Who talks about how it used to scare them and how they loved that fact.

And then some. Although yes the SFX were pretty ropey at times, the early Tom Baker years had some truly dark & genuinely grisly stories. Genocide, racism, muliliation, mutation, those early stories were as much Gothic Horror as they were teatime SciFi all the family could enjoy (If I indulge my inner annorak for a second, those early stories were produced by a man name Phillip Hinchcliffe who intentionally steered Who towards PG horror). There was even a bit of blood sometimes.
For a while Dr. Who courted genuine controversy with the conservative British worriers who felt it was getting too grisly. Later during the Baker years this disapated into the kind of stupidity you get now (Douglas Adams take some of the blame here), but then in the early 80s that came back with Peter Davison's tenure containing some downbeat, dark tales.

Killer_banana wrote: »

Nowadays it would seem this world is so politically correct and concerned about children's mental health that you're not allowed scare them anymore. So no dark storylines and no aliens that aren't boldly coloured and have at least one ridiculous feature which makes you laugh out loud at it's crappiness. [...]Ugh I'm going to shut up now cos I was meant to be making a point but instead it just became an uber-rant.

No I think you have hit the nail on the head here. There is a large element of political correctness where you can't be seen to malaciously scare your audience (or in the words of one of the Old Series' better writers, try to "scare the little buggers"). As you say, any attempts to introduce darkness is almost immediately offset by campness.

There is one sliver of light though; Moffat's stories were, by all accounts, quite dark & seldom contained such obvious levity & RTD silliness. So perhaps the tone wasn't so much a direction from BBC, but from RTD. I suspect that RTD was a fan of the late-years Baker stories (containing silliness and Tom Baker goofballing), and Moffat a fan of the early Gothic Horror. I guess we'll see.

(One of the leaked storylines of the new series is a Dalek (yawn) story where Churchill is trying to use them as secret weapons. Even that sounds a little darker than what we're used to.)

Killer_banana

pixelburp wrote: »

There is one sliver of light though; Moffat's stories were, by all accounts, quite dark & seldom contained such obvious levity & RTD silliness. So perhaps the tone wasn't so much a direction from BBC, but from RTD. I suspect that RTD was a fan of the late-years Baker stories (containing silliness and Tom Baker goofballing), and Moffat a fan of the early Gothic Horror. I guess we'll see.

That is quite a good point. I think a lot of the silliness may be from RTD. I highly doubt the show will ever be as dark as it used to be though. Even if the BBC was to allow it the media would be in outcry and it would be lightened again. It's a pity really because I do love the New Who but it could be so much more.

ixoy

Killer_banana wrote: »

That is quite a good point. I think a lot of the silliness may be from RTD. I highly doubt the show will ever be as dark as it used to be though. Even if the BBC was to allow it the media would be in outcry and it would be lightened again. It's a pity really because I do love the New Who but it could be so much more.

I agree. RTD's reign on the show has given a certain tone to the show - one that's generally light, with OTTish moments and the Doctor mugging to the camera in an effort to outdo Uncle Tom's most outlandish moments. The Beeb might be relucant to take away from this image too much by letting it go dark.

So we mightn't get a "Horror of Fang Rock" again (everybody dies) because we need some levity. Or we can't have a "Talons of Weing-Chiang" because not only might it be perceived as racist but you can't have scary doll-like figures running around killing people. Hell "The Seeds of Doom" might hurt the feelings of plants...
It'll be interesting to see how much Moffat can turn the show into his darker style (and yes, it does recall the Hinchcliffe era pixelburp!) or whether people above him would push back and ask for more farting aliens (ugh).

spongeman

We already have Doctor Who lite in the form of Sarah Jane Adventures. ( Which i find boring ). So I dont need it in DW as well.

Hopefully there will be another series of TW. great stuff - and better than Who in many cases as well.

Daemos

spongeman wrote: »

There has to be one person out there who agrees with me that Simm is a great master.

Is there anybody out there ......................

Hello

o/

Doctor DooM

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Hello

o/

I make three. I like Simms master, I don't think he could have done any more with the script than he did. From my vantage point, anywho.

That said, I am still happy RTD's reign has come to an end. He's managed some awesome things, but also some awful. It's time (Same thing for DT, much as I like him).

I don't want farts in my sci fi, thanks.

Daemos

Doctor DooM wrote: »

That said, I am still happy RTD's reign has come to an end. He's managed some awesome things, but also some awful. It's time (Same thing for DT, much as I like him).

Exactly, that's the thing that really annoys me about people who critisize RTD. They only seem to be able to see the bad points, and rarely the good.

Now I'll certainly admit that he has been responsible for some shocking stories (Planet Of The Dead and The Long Game spring to mind), but he also wrote Aliens Of London/World War Three, the Season 3 finale episodes with The Master, Voyaage Of The Damned, and Day One of Torchwood: Children Of Earth.

When he's written so many episodes it's easy to critisize the bad ones, but let's not forget the good ones as well.

Steven Moffat has argubally a 100% good record at writing Dr Who, but keep in mind that he has written only 6 episodes (4 stories). By the time RTD will have left he will have written 31 episodes (24 stories).

So while I am looking forward to SM taking over, so you can almost guarantee that once his reign is over, he'll likely have had just as many stinkers as RTD overall.

ixoy

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Exactly, that's the thing that really annoys me about people who critisize RTD. They only seem to be able to see the bad points, and rarely the good.

Now I'll certainly admit that he has been responsible for some shocking stories (Planet Of The Dead and The Long Game spring to mind), but he also wrote Aliens Of London/World War Three, the Season 3 finale episodes with The Master, Voyaage Of The Damned, and Day One of Torchwood: Children Of Earth.

To be honest, I only think "Children of Earth" is worthy of note from that list. The rest I think were average at best (and I thought the Season 3 finale was crap) and "Aliens of London/World War Three" brought us farting aliens....

So to me the bad outweighs the good (and I don't need to hear the tired old "But he brought the show back" line) overall when it comes to his writing. That'd be fine if I thought he could only produce crap but it's the fact he can do good writing as well, and good character moments, that he can turn off melodrama, that's one of the most annoying features of his reign. It's not that the plots vary in their intricacy - it's the very tone and attitude of this writing that can flip around the place. It's almost schizophrenic.

Doctor DooM

ixoy wrote: »

To be honest, I only think "Children of Earth" is worthy of note from that list. The rest I think were average at best (and I thought the Season 3 finale was crap) and "Aliens of London/World War Three" brought us farting aliens....

So to me the bad outweighs the good (and I don't need to hear the tired old "But he brought the show back" line) overall when it comes to his writing. That'd be fine if I thought he could only produce crap but it's the fact he can do good writing as well, and good character moments, that he can turn off melodrama, that's one of the most annoying features of his reign. It's not that the plots vary in their intricacy - it's the very tone and attitude of this writing that can flip around the place. It's almost schizophrenic.

People disagree with me but I thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed both midnight and turn left. I thought they were both great. The last 15 minutes of waters of mars too.

I agree that the flip flopping is MADDENING though. Like Gridlock- 42 minutes of irritance for3 minutes of good/ important stuff.

ixoy

Doctor DooM wrote: »

People disagree with me but I thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed both midnight and turn left. I thought they were both great. The last 15 minutes of waters of mars too.

Oh I forgot "Turn Left" - that was very good, one of the best episodes of Season 30 followed by a kitchen-sink crap finale. To have this sort of difference right next to each other makes me want to start smacking the Cloister Bell just to end it all!

Doctor DooM

ixoy wrote: »

Oh I forgot "Turn Left" - that was very good, one of the best episodes of Season 30 followed by a kitchen-sink crap finale. To have this sort of difference right next to each other makes me want to start smacking the Cloister Bell just to end it all!

First two Master episodes as well to the third- the first two were great IMO. I REALLY loved the "you're just wrong, Jack" thing.

spongeman

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Exactly, that's the thing that really annoys me about people who critisize RTD. They only seem to be able to see the bad points, and rarely the good.

Now I'll certainly admit that he has been responsible for some shocking stories (Planet Of The Dead and The Long Game spring to mind), but he also wrote Aliens Of London/World War Three, the Season 3 finale episodes with The Master, Voyaage Of The Damned, and Day One of Torchwood: Children Of Earth.

When he's written so many episodes it's easy to critisize the bad ones, but let's not forget the good ones as well.

Steven Moffat has argubally a 100% good record at writing Dr Who, but keep in mind that he has written only 6 episodes (4 stories). By the time RTD will have left he will have written 31 episodes (24 stories).

So while I am looking forward to SM taking over, so you can almost guarantee that once his reign is over, he'll likely have had just as many stinkers as RTD overall.

Mmmm I d'ont know about Aliens of London/WW3 or Voyage of the Damned, they left me cold. In fact apart from End of Time the only other Xmas special that was any good was Xmas Invasion.

Killer_banana

I agree that RTD has written some amazing storylines and that Stephen Moffat hasn't written enough episodes to get an accurate idea of his success rate. I don't think RTD is a bad writer, it's more that his tone isn't the sort of tone I like compared to Moffat's. I think it's more of a case of personal preference rather than writing skills. In my opinion he's started to run out of original ideas and interesting, believable plots at this point and it's his time to leave. That said he did do a good job of bringing back the show and breathing new life into it. It might not be what a lot of people wanted but it's amazingly successful for a comeback. I wouldn't be on this forum discussing it if it wans't for Russell T. Davies.

pixelburp

I should probably point out at this point that despite my frothing at the mouth, I am grateful that RTD had the vision & neck (to pretty much put his career on the line) to put Dr. Who back on our screens & to be loved again.
As for favorite RTD stories, I loved Tooth & Claw, Turn Left & Midnight in particular. In particular, I thought Tooth & Claw struck a nice note of the PG horror I spoke of earlier.

doctorwhogirl

pixelburp wrote: »

I should probably point out at this point that despite my frothing at the mouth, I am grateful that RTD had the vision & neck (to pretty much put his career on the line) to put Dr. Who back on our screens & to be loved again.
As for favorite RTD stories, I loved Tooth & Claw, Turn Left & Midnight in particular. In particular, I thought Tooth & Claw struck a nice note of the PG horror I spoke of earlier.

Tooth and Claw is a good'un. As you say it calls back to the Baker gothic horror like in Brain of Morbius or even Age of Decay.

Interestingly enough I was reading the interview with Tennant in DW Magazine and he said that Tooth and Claw was one of his favourites and it was where he felt he really go to grips with the Doctor.

Doctor DooM

I'd forgotten tooth and claw. Loved that save for the ninja priests (RTD has no problem dragging out the stereotypes )