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State defends ban on abortion as women take case to Europe

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    #32
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    How can we quib about 4 weeks or 8 weeks or 12 weeks but have absolutely no problem with our best friend country and our best and nicest neighbour country killing hundreds of thousands of people who are actually born in an unjust war?

    Ah, it's the children thing is it?


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    #33
    SLUSK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭SLUSK


    Klingon Hamlet wrote: »
    When will this country actually join the 21st century? Legalise abortion, but limit it to within 4-6 weeks of conception, that seems fairest. 8 fatcat solicitors are going to try to keep us in the stone age and keep women under the bootheel of the church. Shameful.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/state-defends-ban-on-abortion--as-women-take-case-to-europe-1966158.html

    What else can you expect from primitive religious savages?


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    #34
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    drkpower wrote: »
    That's funny. I could have sworn that you argued for a 16 week cut-off on the othewr thread on the basis of your assertion (quoting one medical paper) that "it (conciousness/sentience) plain and simply is not there".

    Why would you want to bring it back to 12 weeks when a 16 week foetus, by your definition, has absolutely no rights?
    Is it because you dont trust the science and want to have an extra large (8 week buffer from 20 weeks) 'just in case'? In which case, how can you trust an area of science that is very much in its infancy, practically a foetus, you might say?

    Actually no on the other thread I was not wholly specific about exactly the cut off I would go for. If you read all I wrote you will for example see I linked to an essay from me that suggests 12 weeks.

    Actually given the science I use to back me up I would feel comfortable enough with 20 weeks, but I am aware that some fetus' develop slightly faster than others. I would feel wholly safe with 16 weeks based on my position and my arguments on the subject.

    My position on 12 weeks however would be entirely subjective. Studies I have read, one of which I even linked to on the other thread, showed that more than half of the people who had it in the 12 to 16 weeks bracket regretted dawdling and wish they had it done sooner.

    So no I am afraid your attempt to find an inconsistency in my position has succeeded solely in uncovering an area where I decided not to be wholly specific as it was not relevant to the discussion I was having at the time. If I was to go in to the public arena tomorrow and actively campaign for the right to abortions I would happily settle on any figure in the 12 to 16 range for all the reasons I gave in the other thread. If I was asked to choose myself what cut off to go for I would instantly say 16. However I fight alongside anyone who falls within 12-16, therefore the phrase "I argue for..." is entirely accurate.


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    #35
    SLUSK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭SLUSK


    I believe you should allow really late abortions, so called partial birth abortions. A fetus has no rights.


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    #36
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    jhegarty wrote: »
    We have had more referenda on it then any other topic.

    Obviously, then, the people haven't given the governent the answer they want.


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    #37
    Bigdeadlydave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Bigdeadlydave


    All I know is now if someone asked me if I wish I was aborted I would say no.


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    #38
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Klingon Hamlet wrote: »
    Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AbortionLawsMap-NoLegend.png

    We're one of the minority who refuse to give a woman the choice
    _michelle_ wrote: »
    i tink women should have a choice not be pushed one way or the other, it really is a personal issue & i dont think the government can force a woman to another country if thats what she really wants.
    Should men be given a choice also (or at least some input into the decision)?
    2 stroke wrote: »
    I support the right of life of the unborn, over the womans right to choose.
    Abortion is murder. Nobody is forced to the uk, they travel there to circumvent irish law.
    The truly suicidal will probably take their own lives at some point, regardless of whether they have an abortion.
    OK - but this view is based upon what? Catholic morals?
    Should your views be deemed more worthy than other peoples?
    I don't want to get drawn into a debate on which side is right and which is wrong but please stop trying to sound like Ann from last night's Frontline!
    SLUSK wrote: »
    I believe you should allow really late abortions, so called partial birth abortions. A fetus has no rights.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartman%27s_Mom_Is_Still_a_Dirty_Slut :D


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    #39
    Johnee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Johnee


    conorhal wrote: »
    Uh, wasn't the issue of irelands sovereignty regards it's abortion laws dealt with under those 'written guarantees' we were offered as an incentive to pass Lisbon 2? I guess we're about to find out of a written guarantee from the EU is worth the paper it's written on.....





    Its a different court, under a different system. The European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU system. That's the European Court of Justice.

    The European Court of Human Rights comes under the Council of Europe which covers a much bigger group of countries and has been around since the late 40's/early 50's.

    So, no matter what the Court decides, this has nothing to do with the EU.


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    #40
    2 stroke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭2 stroke


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    WOW.

    Just wow.

    I thought this sort of religious bigotry was long gone in this country! What gives some one the right to tell someone else what they can and cant do? If you dont agree with abortions fine, but dont tell me i cant have one (if i was female) just because it goes against your views!!!
    kbannon wrote: »
    OK - but this view is based upon what? Catholic morals?
    Should your views be deemed more worthy than other peoples?
    I don't want to get drawn into a debate on which side is right and which is wrong but please stop trying to sound like Ann from last night's Frontline!


    For me this is not a religous issue. Life can be detected inside the womb. A featus not a piece of jelly or a piece of liveless meat, but a defenseless, living person.


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    #41
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I'm going to lay down a marker here: this thread is not for discussion of abortion; especially not the rights and wrongs thereof. This thread is only for discussion of the case being taken.


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    #42
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #43
    2 stroke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭2 stroke


    Appologies but didnt this thread start in humanities? I returned from work and responded to comments made to my post which was originally posted in humanities.


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    #44
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #45
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    It's about time someone had grounds to take such a challenge.

    A succession of Irish Governments have happily ignored this question and let things rattle on as if nothing was happening. If anything they indicated that they want to be *more* restrictive on abortion, when general public opinion has swung towards at the very least formal legislation to cater for those cases which are already legal here.

    But they're scared of having the debate because you can't have a national debate on a topic which is devoid of logic and based entirely on what the individual *feels* is right. They'd be far happier if the supreme court or the ECHR could indicate what laws are required and then claim that their hands are tied, that they didn't choose to legalise anything.

    Interesting to see how this all turns out.


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    #46
    jaybird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭jaybird


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    We already have legal abortion in certain cases, like when the 'baby' develops with out a brain but the fact the government refuses to legislate those legal cases women have to travel out of the country for medical proceedures which are not against the law in this country.

    No, the only legal reason for abortion in this country is if the life of the women (not mother, if you haven't given birth you are not a mother) is in imminent risk.


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    #47
    positron
    Registered Users Posts: 6,374 ✭✭✭positron


    A few questions for those who can help me:

    * Does the constitution of this country give the government power to take a side (here the side to keep abortions) in such a case?
    * Shouldn't something like this be voted on by the public? A referendum?
    * Can any Irish citizen sue Irish Government for not giving him/her a chance in deciding what side the Government should take in this case (pro or against abortion etc).
    * and lastly, anyone know what is the stance of various political parties on abortion law?

    Thanks a million!


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    #48
    RandolphEsq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,296 ✭✭✭RandolphEsq


    positron wrote: »
    * Does the constitution of this country give the government power to take a side (here the side to keep abortions) in such a case?

    The governments side is irrelevant I think as it is The State arguing that the ECHR is not infringed by the State's law banning abortion
    positron wrote: »
    * Shouldn't something like this be voted on by the public? A referendum?

    Not necessary. Whatever the European Courts say is automatically law here in Ireland regardless if it appears to disagree with our Constitution. And that is not as a result of the Lisbon Treaty!
    positron wrote: »
    * Can any Irish citizen sue Irish Government for not giving him/her a chance in deciding what side the Government should take in this case (pro or against abortion etc).

    I think the first answer deals with that as the government's side is irrelevant.
    positron wrote: »
    * and lastly, anyone know what is the stance of various political parties on abortion law?

    lol they are not too keen on advertising their stance due to abortion being such a hot topic, but it might be easy to find out with a bit of digging


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    #49
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    RandolphEsq wrote: »
    The governments side is irrelevant I think as it is The State arguing that the ECHR is not infringed by the State's law banning abortion
    Well, the "State" basically holds that whatever the constitution says, is their "side". So if the constitution (or the law) says that abortion is illegal, then the state is of the opinion that abortion is wrong, unless it can be shown that the constitution or the legislation is invalid.
    Not necessary. Whatever the European Courts say is automatically law here in Ireland regardless if it appears to disagree with our Constitution. And that is not as a result of the Lisbon Treaty!
    Actually, this has very little to do with the EU or Lisbon.

    The argument here is that Ireland's constitutional ban contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights. This convention is upheld by the Council of Europe, which is an entirely distinct body from the European Union.

    Although Ireland falls under the jurisdiction of the council of Europe, any ruling may by the European Court of Human Rights does not override our constitution, but rather where a conflict occurs we will be required to resolve it. Though the EU is a signatory to the convention, the convention is not law in the EU, rather it's an agreement to how its member states should act.

    The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union is a separate, though mostly identical document. This is the document that is now law since the Lisbon Treaty came into force. Thus this document overrides our constitution.

    If the European Court of Human Rights rules in favour of the women, it does not mean Ireland is forced to do anything. However, this would give the women good grounds to challenge the constitution on the basis that it conflicts with the above Charter. If the EU then rules that the Charter allows abortion in said circumstances, then Ireland will be forced to allow abortion in these circumstances, in spite of our constitution.

    Confused? I am. :)

    Just to be clear - Lisbon didn't open this door, and if the ECtHR rules in favour of the women, it still has nothing to do with Lisbon.
    lol they are not too keen on advertising their stance due to abortion being such a hot topic, but it might be easy to find out with a bit of digging
    If questioned, I imagine they would all be "pro-life", but I have a feeling that only SF, FF & FG actually are.


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    #50
    positron
    Registered Users Posts: 6,374 ✭✭✭positron


    Thank you both - I learned something new today!

    I wonder what would happen if we had Estonia style e-voting in place, so that we can have a quick poll on anything that is of public interest.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_in_Estonia

    I think the estonian model is a bit more 'power to people' and 'direct and immediate democracy' which when combined with some investigative journalism could put the country in the right track (depending on the quality of the people and their ethics and priorities, of course..)


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    #51
    cinnamon girl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭cinnamon girl


    positron wrote: »
    * and lastly, anyone know what is the stance of various political parties on abortion law?

    Some of them are posted here. Not surprising how many of the bigger parties refused to answer :rolleyes:


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