Possible Garda Strike

JonathanAnon

well it's pretty typical of sabre rattling of all the unions. Let them at it if they want, the cuts have to be made simple as that. No matter what the repercussions. Last week, Brian Cowan finally showed a bit of backbone by saying no that ridiculous fudge put on the table by David Begg. (Though I'm not sure if would have showed backbone if he wasnt under so much pressure from the backbenchers) The government needs to stand up to all public sector unions and get rid of ridiculously overgenerous work practices which would never be allowed in the private sector.

I dont have a lot of respect for the guards because of a few incidents that I needed help with over the last year, so my opinion regarding them is not favourable anyway. But I think other people who do have respect for the guards will lose it if they strike, especially if they deliberately and knowingly break the laws that they are mean to be upholding.

And I would give them the same advice as I give other public sector workers. If you're not happy with the conditions, then do something else. They were happy enough to accept the pay increases brought in by benchmarking in the good times without any significant reforms. It is time the government enforced serious reforms to stop waste in all public bodies, quangos etc. We've listened to the unions for TOO LONG.

prinz

gandalf wrote: »

I think he is basing his comment on this article in todays Independent.

Except it's all hypothetical. Only applies to gardaí joining after 1995 and retiring on €52,000 odd. Who is retiring from the gardaí after 14 years on that salary? They then include the lump sum for 30 years service.... which would mean a garda retiring at the earliest in 2025. So why are we seeing soundbites like "all gardaí are millionaires when they retire". BS.

brianthebard

gandalf wrote: »

I think he is basing his comment on this article in todays Independent.

That is the worst example of numerical mix and match I've seen in a long time.

jimmmy

Most of the rest of the country ( those who pay their taxes to support the government ) cannot retire at 49 or 50, with a pension worth over a million.

jimmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

they let you out of jail i see jimmy , BOARDS jail i mean

Thats right:)

prinz

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the rest of the country ( those who pay their taxes to support the government ) cannot retire at 49 or 50, with a pension worth over a million.

Boo hoo. Should have joined AGS then*. :rolleyes: My da retired at 57 wasn't earning anything near €52,000 and his pension/lump sum is a lot less than what appears in that article. He never owned a second property. Had no 'second' jobs. etc. Should he take a cut?

*apparently. It's rubbish anyway.

brianthebard

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the rest of the country ( those who pay their taxes to support the government ) cannot retire at 49 or 50, with a pension worth over a million.

Nor can the gardai based on the information you posted.

FlutterinBantam

Gardaí reps should be arrested and charged for stirring up this rubbish.

Public are not idiots and see that retiral at 50 on a full INDEX LINKED pension is a damn good deal.:eek:

have these people nothing better to do than stir up unrest in a country ,which due to collusion between left wing union leaders and an incompetent Govt. and right wing greedy bankers is spinning down the plughole.

Get a grip and get real.

dan_d

Why are people finding this so hard to understand?
We, as a country, are spending more than we are earning.
What's difficult about that?? The money is not there anymore.Move on.

FlutterinBantam

Everybody except those with jobs for life and big pensions understand that Danny boy.

jimmmy

prinz wrote: »

Boo hoo. Should have joined AGS then*. :rolleyes:

The lads I knew who joined it, were not the brightest at school, nor did they ever study all that hard. Believe it or not, some people were too ambitous than just to be Gardai ; besides, the school leavers of 30 years ago never dreamt if they joined the Garda they would be retiring now with a pension pot worth over a million

prinz wrote: »

My da retired at 57 wasn't earning anything near €52,000 and his pension/lump sum is a lot less than what appears in that article.

I do not know nor particularly want to know yours Dads personal circumstances. What Gardai do get however is the tax free gratuity of 18 months salary at retirement, and the pension is 50% of retiring salary.
Obviously not all Gardai earn the same ; the CSO average earnings of Gardai @ 60k a year is that ; average earnings.

prinz wrote: »

He never owned a second property. Had no 'second' jobs. etc. Should he take a cut?

It is not up to him to decide. The chances are he is getting considerably more being retired as his Gardai / govt pension , than the average industrial wage in the worlds superpower economy. Traditionally us in Ireland looked to the USA for good paying jobs - before the govt here started spending money like confetti. The average industrial wage in the USA is 41,000 dollars a year, just over 28,000 euro. And they do not get as many holidays as the Gardai. To put things in perspective, why should retired Gardai here get more for doing nothing than people in the USA get for working damn hard ?

gandalf

Jimmmy I don't see what you want to achieve by suggesting that the Gardai do nothing. I disagree with you totally on this. They do a hard job and I have no problem with them getting a better wage because of that. I know quite a few Gardai and they are on the whole intelligent people. Every job has idiots and they tend to get noticed a lot more than the silent majority who do their jobs well.

As I have said in other threads on this if the Government do not have the money to pay the wages then cuts have to be made no matter how deserving the particular sector is. The PS do not seem to realise this yet and I feel eventhough they say they know we are hitting desparate times the actual awareness on how serious things are has not hit home yet.

Another of our customers went into liquidation today, that is how we are realising things!

jimmmy

gandalf wrote: »

Jimmmy I don't see what you want to achieve by suggesting that the Gardai do nothing.

I never said "the Gardai do nothing." Far from it. I know a few of them quite well and one has even expressed views on Garda pay not that different to my own, but as he always said if the government are foolish enough to give it why would he not take it, "while its going."

TheNog

jimmmy wrote: »

On the Pat Kenny show now they are talking about the 57 ( yes , 57 ) different allowances they are entitled to..... very interesting
eg availibility allowance of between 8 to 11 k a year if you are available outside normal hours, ; gaeltacht allowance ; aran islands allowance ; boot allowance , plain clothes allowance , dog-handlers allowance, lanzarote allowance, etc ...I am typing as its being called out

The different allowances reflect the different needs of each job.

irish_bob wrote: »

its common knowledge that a huge number of guards own second properties , hell , guards have been landlord long before it became a staple of irish life , they cant take a pay cut as they have financial commitments on theese investment properties

What is this huge number you speak of? How many Gardai actually own second or more properties? It would be reasonable to say that some Gardai own second properties. Same as engineers, technicians, doctors etc etc

jimmmy

TheNog wrote: »

The different allowances reflect the different needs of each job.

Nice allowances if ye can get them. For the calibre of the people involved on average ( the average Guard is not as highly qualified or educated as an engineer or doctor,the 2 professions you mention, for example...people who would have studied harder at school on average, and for years in university ) 60k a year is excessive money, when you consider the perks eg big pension after 30 years. Being a Guard is not harder or more dangerous in Belmullet than in Birmingham or Berlin or Bordeau, so why is it paid more?

irish_bob

TheNog wrote: »

The different allowances reflect the different needs of each job.



What is this huge number you speak of? How many Gardai actually own second or more properties? It would be reasonable to say that some Gardai own second properties. Same as engineers, technicians, doctors etc etc

ive yet to hear a doctor or engineer say they cant take a pay cut because they have a second mortgage to pay , thier was a young,sh guard on newstalk yesterday say exactly this

gandalf

irish_bob wrote: »

ive yet to hear a doctor or engineer say they cant take a pay cut because they have a second mortgage to pay , thier was a young,sh guard on newstalk yesterday say exactly this

And what is stopping this youngish Garda from going to his bank and renegotiating his mortgages. Or engaging with MABS and getting them to intercede on his behalf?

At least he is still in a job and capable of paying something towards his mortgage, what about those out of work?

pah

From todays Irish Indo~


On retirement after 30 years, the garda is entitled to a tax-free lump sum of €79,233, and an annual pension of €26,411.

Ms Daly said the value of this retirement lump sum was €1.12m, of which the State would have contributed €1m.



What a Pile of ****



Yes it's a very good pension and if you live to be 85+ then you will have received 1,000,000 shiny euro over a 35 year period if you retired at 50. Does that mean I will retire in 27 years as a millionaire?


NO - It's more word twisting BULL****. It's like saying someone on 50k a year now is a millionaire based on the fact they will earn that over 20 years. ABSOLUTE COCK.



I am the first to say I have a decent Gross wage but after I pay out Tax, Pension Levy, Health Levy, Pension Contributions, Medical and Loans I have just under €200p.w.


My loans were to support the purchase of a home in an overinflated and unsustainable property market in June 07, possibly the absolute worst time to have bought a house. We won the bidding war on a property in a market that was still on the up. Within 18 months our house was worth 100k less. Now we don't plan on moving so it's not an issue. My point is the government has ****ed it all up.


I Don't have a second/holiday home I am not a landlord nor do I have any other source of income. We have a 4 bed semi a couple of 5 year old cars and 2 small kids. My Wife is on a decent wage and she covers the mortgage while I get the bills/shopping. Barely. We have no money to spare for anything.


More cuts only mean bad news to me, and I'm trying to look out for my familys welfare.


I don't support the idea of an all out strike and I don't think that will happen but some action has to be taken and I have to do what i can to protect my pay and conditions

Mr.Micro

What is so special about the Gardai? Too much lip service paid to them IMO. They are there to do a job, in many places in Ireland do very little, other places have to work hard. Overall though well paid for what they do and what qualifications they may have. Best that they not get above themselves.

Rb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What is so special about the Gardai? Too much lip service paid to them IMO. They are there to do a job, in many places in Ireland do very little, other places have to work hard. Overall though well paid for what they do and what qualifications they may have. Best that they not get above themselves.

Indeed.

I agree with what Gandalf said earlier in the thread, anyone striking or inducing the Gardai to strike should be arrested and tried to the very fullest extent of the law.

Examples have to be set, the people here through their Government representatives are meant to control this country, not some overpaid ex-brickies that run the workers mobs unions.

gandalf

pah wrote: »

My loans were to support the purchase of a home in an overinflated and unsustainable property market in June 07, possibly the absolute worst time to have bought a house. We won the bidding war on a property in a market that was still on the up. Within 18 months our house was worth 100k less. Now we don't plan on moving so it's not an issue. My point is the government has ****ed it all up.

Welcome to everyone elses world. Now explain why you are better than the rest of us and why you deserve special treatment over those who HAVE lost their jobs, who HAVE taken significant pay cuts.

Take responsibility for your finances, cut back on luxuries, or if you are right to the pin of your collar talk to your bank but don't expect the rest of us to pay because you weren't prudent enough to ensure you could afford your foray into the property market.

pah

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What is so special about the Gardai? Too much lip service paid to them IMO. They are there to do a job, in many places in Ireland do very little, other places have to work hard. Overall though well paid for what they do and what qualifications they may have. Best that they not get above themselves.

Not get above themselves?

I appreciate my wage and the benefits of my state pension but christ do I work for it. I would invite anyone to come and work a week to see what it's like. I'm in what would be considered a fairly quiet town but you can't for one second assume what might happen next. Please come and join me for a weekend of nights Fri/Sat/Sun 22.00-06.00 Finish the Sunday shift at 06.00 monday morning drive home 35 miles and be back in that day for 14.00 work 14.00-22.00 Mon and Tues. Finish Tues night at 22.00, Drive home 35 miles, go to bed and get up at 05.00, then Work Wed & Thurs 06.00-14.00. Then come back moday night and start that cycle all over again. Come on It will be fun.

It's draining enough to do this week after week before going into detail about mental patients/public order/fatal accidents/drowned children....

For the benefit of other posters who seem to question the intelligence/calibre of members of the Gardaí I spent 5 years in college, changing courses 3 times until I finally realised it wasn't for me and copped on to what I wanted to do. It is also the case in the last 5-7 years that a huge amount of people joining had 3rd level qualifications. out of my class of 30 4yrs ago i'd say 20 had a qual. already.

pah

gandalf wrote: »

Welcome to everyone elses world. Now explain why you are better than the rest of us and why you deserve special treatment over those who HAVE lost their jobs, who HAVE taken significant pay cuts.

Take responsibility for your finances, cut back on luxuries, or if you are right to the pin of your collar talk to your bank but don't expect the rest of us to pay because you weren't prudent enough to ensure you could afford your foray into the property market.

I have never said that I was better than anyone else or that I deserve special treatment please don't put words in my mouth.

I am simply explaining my situation so people posting here can see my perspective.

I wouldn't call buying a house to support my wife and 2 kids a "foray into the property market" It was a neccessity.

I am not spending on luxuries, neither do I expect "the rest of us" to pay for anything that I owe.

The same argument could be used to argue that the public sector should not be expected to pay for "the rest of us". I am willing to pay my fair share, absolutely.

Grudaire

gandalf wrote: »

I think he is basing his comment on this article in todays Independent.

Rough calculation on those figures:


An annual pension of €52,822, 1.1million would last for:
40 years at 3.5%
More accurately 33.15883136 years @ 2%
(which is either overestimating the average lifetime, or underestimating the rate of interest (unless I'm missing something))

At 1% rate of interest (which would be low, even taking potential increases of the pension into account) a lump sum of €79,233 and annual payments of €26,411 would cost €946,429.895 (Which is based on a pension for 40 years) (Monthly payments of the annual lump sum push this to €950,397)

I'd love to see those figures! No matter what the rate of interest is lower than what you could hope for, and the age longer (Unless I'm forgetting to factor something in!)

jimmmy

pah wrote: »

It is also the case in the last 5-7 years that a huge amount of people joining had 3rd level qualifications. out of my class of 30 4yrs ago i'd say 20 had a qual. already.

Garda wages are more than most people in the private sector can ever dream of getting. eg I know someone in the private sector, with a third level qualification, and after 12 years work is still not on half what the average Garda makes ! Plus she has no security + pension. There is something wrong when Garda wages entice so many people who have 3rd level qualifications, who join the Gardai even during the Celtic Tiger years as they can get so much more in the Gardai, for less effort, than they can expect to get elsewhere. 30 years ago it was joked that you had to do an IQ test to join the Gardai, and if you were too clever they would not let you in. It was a job for those who scraped a pass in the leaving cert. Some Gardai I know spend their working hours doing their own messages / errands etc, and chatting to people about their investment apartments, and sorting out their own properties etc.

RedPlanet

pah wrote: »

I wouldn't call buying a house to support my wife and 2 kids a "foray into the property market" It was a neccessity.

And what neccessity dictated you had to over-bid on an over-valued house in the thick of a property boom?

Mr.Micro

pah wrote: »

Not get above themselves?

I appreciate my wage and the benefits of my state pension but christ do I work for it. I would invite anyone to come and work a week to see what it's like. I'm in what would be considered a fairly quiet town but you can't for one second assume what might happen next. Please come and join me for a weekend of nights Fri/Sat/Sun 22.00-06.00 Finish the Sunday shift at 06.00 monday morning drive home 35 miles and be back in that day for 14.00 work 14.00-22.00 Mon and Tues. Finish Tues night at 22.00, Drive home 35 miles, go to bed and get up at 05.00, then Work Wed & Thurs 06.00-14.00. Then come back moday night and start that cycle all over again. Come on It will be fun.

It's draining enough to do this week after week before going into detail about mental patients/public order/fatal accidents/drowned children....

For the benefit of other posters who seem to question the intelligence/calibre of members of the Gardaí I spent 5 years in college, changing courses 3 times until I finally realised it wasn't for me and copped on to what I wanted to do. It is also the case in the last 5-7 years that a huge amount of people joining had 3rd level qualifications. out of my class of 30 4yrs ago i'd say 20 had a qual. already.

If the Gardai have a poor perceived image with regard to the calibre of intelligence within its ranks it has only itself to blame. As a force it did not move with the times and still is entrenched and there still exists an enormous apathy. On joining the Gardai one has to be aware of what the job entails such as being called to scenes of crime or dealing with people at their lowest moments, just like social workers, nurses, doctors, and others. So the Gardai are not a special case.

gandalf

pah wrote: »

I have never said that I was better than anyone else or that I deserve special treatment please don't put words in my mouth.

I am simply explaining my situation so people posting here can see my perspective.

I wouldn't call buying a house to support my wife and 2 kids a "foray into the property market" It was a neccessity.

I am not spending on luxuries, neither do I expect "the rest of us" to pay for anything that I owe.

The same argument could be used to argue that the public sector should not be expected to pay for "the rest of us". I am willing to pay my fair share, absolutely.

Well here is my example. I bought in 2007 as well. The market had started to turn downwards at that stage and I got my apartment at a price cheaper than it was advertised for. However like you I have watched it plummet in value @ 75k the last time I got the courage to check.

Since 2007 my circumstances employment wise have changed. Since then I am 30% down on my take home pay, I have changed job 3 times this year to stay in employment. The first company got taken over all bar 2 were let go, the 2nd company was somewhere to work to pay my bills and I am now a manager in a company run by someone I worked with previously. I am one of the lucky ones, several of the others I worked with are still looking for work since March this year (and they are highly skilled and educated). I have cut my cloth to take into account my changed circumstances.

I too am married and I have my first child on the way. What you fail to understand is if the tax take is not matching up to the spend then there has to be a balancing of the books. The Public Sector is where the saving has to be made, some will have to take pay cuts, others will be losing their jobs. You should thank your lucky stars that you are in a position where your job is realitively safe unlike a whole raft of others.

Finally how can you expect your children to pick up and take the burden of a debt to re-enforce an artificial level of payments that the tax take can no longer sustain. Whole rafts of this economy have already taken the pain, in refusing to recognise this you and the unions are dragging out the critical situation longer and it will effect both our childrens future. Is that really what you want.

prinz

jimmmy wrote: »

The lads I knew who joined it, were not the brightest at school, nor did they ever study all that hard. Believe it or not, some people were too ambitous than just to be Gardai

My father was a trained accountant. He jacked that in when he got accepted back in 1960.

jimmmy wrote: »

The chances are he is getting considerably more being retired as his Gardai / govt pension , than the average industrial wage in the worlds superpower economy.... The average industrial wage in the USA is 41,000 dollars a year, just over 28,000 euro.

If you want to use those figures he's getting considerably less. But then again you don't actually want to know the reality do you? It's far easier to paint everyone with the one brush..and just to set the record straight my da would never dream of striking and if he were dead he'd be spinning in his grave if they go through with it.

jimmmy wrote: »

30 years ago it was joked that you had to do an IQ test to join the Gardai, and if you were too clever they would not let you in. It was a job for those who scraped a pass in the leaving cert.

Yeah and it was people like you who were looking down on those joining 30 years ago who are b*tching about the pension now. Look who turned out to be the clever ones... the same people will later turn around and complain that the gardaí are too stupid to solve x crime, and y crime boohoo.

jimmmy wrote: »

Some Gardai I know spend their working hours doing their own messages / errands etc, and chatting to people about their investment apartments, and sorting out their own properties etc.

Yeah yeah waffle waffle. FFS. If that's what you reckon I suggest you don't actually know any members at all.

pah

jimmmy wrote: »

Garda wages are more than most people in the private sector can ever dream of getting. eg I know someone in the private sector, with a third level qualification, and after 12 years work is still not on half what the average Garda makes ! Plus she has no security + pension. There is something wrong when Garda wages entice so many people who have 3rd level qualifications, who join the Gardai even during the Celtic Tiger years as they can get so much more in the Gardai, for less effort, than they can expect to get elsewhere. 30 years ago it was joked that you had to do an IQ test to join the Gardai, and if you were too clever they would not let you in. It was a job for those who scraped a pass in the leaving cert. Some Gardai I know spend their working hours doing their own messages / errands etc, and chatting to people about their investment apartments, and sorting out their own properties etc.

Agreed - there are dossers and wasters in all walks of life however. The security of this job is one of the main reasons that I joined. The money is good and there are plenty of people who would like to have this job. There are always a lot of applicants as has been discussed in other threads. But for every person who would do the job how many are there who wouldn't? No matter the wage/job security.

It doesn't change the fact that another pay cut will make an extremely tight situation even tighter.

Again I'll reiterate my invitation to come join me for a week