Should PJ Stone and Michael O'Boyce of the GRA be arrested?

gent9662

Given they are breaking the law, should they be held accountable for calling a vote?

ei.sdraob

arrested by whom?

OnTheBalls

I don't think so. Right what they are doing is illegal. But this country NEEDS some extreme measures. The situation is deteriorating more rapidly every hour of the day. Although they are breaking the law I support them. I mean the guards are not the bad guys. The corrupt government is. The guards are pissed off because they are getting screwed over by a corrupt government. Why are qwe after their heads. We need to go after Fianna Fail. I found it ironic and hypocratic that dermot ahern is giving out about the guards saying they are breaking the law.

Look at your party you ****ing buffoon. I think the Irish public are afraid of the harsh extreme measures that are needed to rid this state of corrupt bankers and politicians. If Fianna Fail ever get elected ....... well that would be a catastrophe for Ireland and my faith in the irish people.

Riskymove

dclane wrote: »

Given they are breaking the law, should they be held accountable for calling a vote?

what law have they broken?

ei.sdraob

OnTheBalls wrote: »

I don't think so. Right what they are doing is illegal. But this country NEEDS some extreme measures. The situation is deteriorating more rapidly every hour of the day. Although they are breaking the law I support them. I mean the guards are not the bad guys. The corrupt government is. The guards are pissed off because they are getting screwed over by a corrupt government. Why are qwe after their heads. We need to go after Fianna Fail. I found it ironic and hypocratic that dermot ahern is giving out about the guards saying they are breaking the law.

Look at your party you ****ing buffoon. I think the Irish public are afraid of the harsh extreme measures that are needed to rid this state of corrupt bankers and politicians. If Fianna Fail ever get elected ....... well that would be a catastrophe for Ireland and my faith in the irish people.

theres no denying that FF seriously ****ed up and are corrupt

but whatever government comes in will still have to cut the PS wages

theres just no way out of it, since the money is being borrowed not taken out of taxes

jimmmy

OnTheBalls wrote: »

The guards are pissed off because they are getting screwed over by a corrupt government.

I am no friend or admirer of Fianna Fail but you have to recognise that if anyone was screwed, it was the Gardai / p.s who screwed the rest of us. The average pay in the Gardai across all ages / grades is 60,000. They can retire after 30 years service on big pensions. The Gardai are the lucky ones. Most other police forces in the world are not as well looked after.

gandalf

Yes and they should face the full penalties from the Garda Act which is 5 years imprisonment and 50K Euro in fines.

bringingitall

Riskymove wrote: »

what law have they broken?

Gardai holding a ballot for industrial action is ilegal they are forbid under legislation to hold a strike or ballot for industrial.

In fact the GRA are not even a union and are not recognised as such in Irish law, the fact that they think they can hold a ballot is reason enough to doubt the intellegience of the GRA chiefs

super_furry

Gardai will lose any moral authority if this comes to pass. Anyone breaking the law should be held accountable - most of all Gardai.

brianthebard

super_furry wrote: »

Gardai will lose any moral authority if this comes to pass. Anyone breaking the law should be held accountable - most of all Gardai.

All laws should be upheld, all the time?

whatnext

I often felt that some of the Gardai I knew felf they were above the law (this is my opinion of them, I have no "link" to back up my "opinion" and not some thing that I can give examples of what it is based on with out giving names and specific examples of, which I am sure is not a route we want to go down)..

Anyway, these muppets have only proven "to me" that this attitude goes right to the top.

gandalf

bringingitall wrote: »

Gardai holding a ballot for industrial action is ilegal they are forbid under legislation to hold a strike or ballot for industrial.

In fact the GRA are not even a union and are not recognised as such in Irish law, the fact that they think they can hold a ballot is reason enough to doubt the intellegience of the GRA chiefs

The fact that they are not an official union means they are open to people or the government taking a civil action against them as well.

In fairness,they do *do* a job that if they didn't do it,we'd all know about it.
They take an awfull lot of shít on our behalf with scumbags most of us would see but don't on account of them.

That function is almost for the mastercard ad to be honest-priceless.

However-I do feel that they should be hauled in and given the option of a 10 year pay and allowances freeze OR to take the cuts everybody else is taking.
Some of the ridiculous allowances should be scrapped [The one called the lanzerote allowance whereby they get paid extra on holidays because they dont get to do overtime when on holidays for instance :rolleyes: what a ridiculous allowance].

I think that would be a fair compromise.

I believe exceptionally essential services like nurses and Gardaí cannot and should not be messed about.
I'd have no recruitment ban there for instance.
I believe if the health service was hiring as many nurses instead of pen pushers,then we'd be getting somewhere.

super_furry

brianthebard wrote: »

All laws should be upheld, all the time?

Either that or they should be removed from the statute books. The laws governing those who are supposed to uphold them, should always be upheld.

gent9662

When do you think it stopped being about upholding the constitution and law of the republic of Ireland and started to become more of a question of how much is in pay and allowances.

Are there any Gardai in this forum that will say they disagree with what the GRA is doing?

whatnext

Just out of couriosity, with such a fundamental breach of contract would these guys or any striking Garda be putting their pensions at risk??????

Dr Galen

i wasn't aware that they had broken any law yet?

If and only if, they do decide on a walkout, well then they would be breaking the law as per the act 2007, and of course those involved shold be reprimanded. That stands whether you support or disagree with their action.

For this to be seen as anything more than posturing is wide of the mark. Pre-talks feather plumping is part of industrial relations.

bringingitall

Deleted User wrote: »

Some of the ridiculous allowances should be scrapped [The one called the lanzerote allowance whereby they get paid extra on holidays because they dont get to do overtime when on holidays for instance :rolleyes: what a ridiculous allowance]

That is well and truly crazy i'd like to see a Garda defend that one

Drumpot

Yes . . They should be arrested . . .

Not doing so opens the door for the rest of us to quote that if we dont want to pay taxes or other legal requirements (and some will try it out) .

I think this is an own goal for them as the perks (57 of them) that guards get will hopefully be highlighted. They can be told "Ok, we aint touching your gross wage" but your "add ons" are being stripped down to the bare bones . .

Long Onion

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i wasn't aware that they had broken any law yet?

If and only if, they do decide on a walkout, well then they would be breaking the law as per the act 2007, and of course those involved shold be reprimanded. That stands whether you support or disagree with their action.

For this to be seen as anything more than posturing is wide of the mark. Pre-talks feather plumping is part of industrial relations.

The heads of the GRA have indeed broken the law insofar as they are inciting others to breach the relevant legislation. I do think that arresting them now would be premature and runs the risk of martyrdom.

Should a strike look imminent, then they should be arrested and charged just as anyone else would be - however, should this course of action be followed SEan Fitzpatrck should go down first.

granturismo

dclane wrote: »

Given they are breaking the law, should they be held accountable for calling a vote?

Are PJ Stone and O'Boyce serving Gardai? if not then they have not broken any laws by facilitating their members to strike, nor will these two individuals be liable for prosectuion if Gardai go on strike.

bringingitall

Good point they should be happy that their allowances aren't hit or their so called big cheque

gent9662

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i wasn't aware that they had broken any law yet?

If and only if, they do decide on a walkout, well then they would be breaking the law as per the act 2007, and of course those involved shold be reprimanded. That stands whether you support or disagree with their action.

For this to be seen as anything more than posturing is wide of the mark. Pre-talks feather plumping is part of industrial relations.

Under the Garda Siochána Act 2005 it is a criminal offence for a member of the force to withdraw their labour or to induce anybody to withdraw their labour.

On conviction the offence carries a penalty of up to five years in jail and/or a fine of up to €50,000.

Gardaí take an oath when they enter the force to uphold the law.

Dr Galen

59.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he or she induces, or
does any act calculated to induce, any member of the Garda Sı´och-
a´ na to withhold his or her services or to commit a breach of
discipline.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding \3,000 or
imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or
both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding
\50,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years
or both.

this seems the most relevant bit of the AGS Act 2005 to this action.

I'm not a lawyer, but it's great to see we have some many posters who are so well informed of such things. IMHO I think it would be pretty hard to prove in court, this balloting for industrial action is the same as noted in the act.

However, if they do ballot, and the motion passes. If anyone is basically found to be organising the action, or facilitating the action, then I'd say they would be committing an offence.

platinum76

black briar your comment about the so called 'lanzarote allowance' is incorrect. gardai who work shift work daily receive a shift allowance like every shift worker in the country. if they take annual leave they receive a shift allowance for that days leave. this is normal as i have worked shift work in a number of multinational companies and receive the same. they only receive a shift allowance if the hours are outside normal working hours, ie if they are due to work a nine to five and take a day off they dont get shift pay for it and definitely dont get overtime. dont believe the b******* in the papers. the real tragedy here is the government have managed to put a spin on these issues turning private sector against public workers and deflecting away from the main issues. we should be all pulling together imo.

gent9662

platinum76 wrote: »

black briar your comment about the so called 'lanzarote allowance' is incorrect. gardai who work shift work daily receive a shift allowance like every shift worker in the country. if they take annual leave they receive a shift allowance for that days leave. this is normal as i have worked shift work in a number of multinational companies and receive the same. they only receive a shift allowance if the hours are outside normal working hours, ie if they are due to work a nine to five and take a day off they dont get shift pay for it and definitely dont get overtime. dont believe the b******* in the papers. the real tragedy here is the government have managed to put a spin on these issues turning private sector against public workers and deflecting away from the main issues. we should be all pulling together imo.

+ if put on clerical duty(9-5) an allowance to compensate you for the allowances your missing by not working unsocial hours

jimmmy

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe exceptionally essential services like nurses and Gardaí cannot and should not be messed about.
I'd have no recruitment ban there for instance.

Yet they think there are so overstaffed / there is so much fat in the system that they can take 12 days unpaid leave, without services suffering, so they can have more time off to do their shopping in Newry ?

Drumpot

Personally, I think the unions cant blame anybody but themselves for the public v private divide. .

Whatever message they wanted to portray (for sympathy or support) they simply make the average private sector employee (or unemployed) sick and disgusted.

They will not discuss any issues that are actually important to private sector employees (job security, guaranteed pension, ESRI/CSO figures that dont back up much of their claims) and yet are surprised when they dont get support nationally . . Thats not even going into the way they make out the public service to being the main victims of the recession. This is just wrong on so many levels, I wouldnt know where to begin .

The government didn't have to do much for the divide, the unions did most of the work themselves.

platinum76

all of these issues were here during the good times as well. there were no complaints then when the private sector was doing well. no doubt there is alot of wastage in the public sector but not as much as the media would have you believe. imo there is a need for change in the public sector and it should be led from the top.

the government has managed to put a spin on this recession and fed it to joe public that somehow the public sector pay is responsible for the situation we are in and we have swallowed it with the result that society is divided public V's private. this does nothing to lift the mood of the nation into trying to find a solution by pulling together. i feel sorry for lots of private sector people who find themselves out of work but its not the ordinary public sector workers fault.
sorry for getting off the thread issue!!

jimmycrackcorm

platinum76 wrote: »

all of these issues were here during the good times as well. there were no complaints then when the private sector was doing well. no doubt there is alot of wastage in the public sector but not as much as the media would have you believe. imo there is a need for change in the public sector and it should be led from the top.

the government has managed to put a spin on this recession and fed it to joe public that somehow the public sector pay is responsible for the situation we are in and we have swallowed it with the result that society is divided public V's private. this does nothing to lift the mood of the nation into trying to find a solution by pulling together. i feel sorry for lots of private sector people who find themselves out of work but its not the ordinary public sector workers fault.
sorry for getting off the thread issue!!

We didn't care during the boom because there was plenty of money floating about but now there isn't we're going to have to be cost-conscious.

This constant mantra of "but its not the ordinary public sector workers fault" is the real reason for the public / private divide because the public service still can't rationalize the need to cut the public paybill regardless of fault. I didn't need the Government to influence my math skills to work out €20bn PS + €20bn SW > €34bn tax revenue. And that's just before the whole NAMA / Banking costs.

Drumpot

platinum76 wrote: »

the government has managed to put a spin on this recession and fed it to joe public that somehow the public sector pay is responsible for the situation we are in and we have swallowed it with the result that society is divided public V's private. this does nothing to lift the mood of the nation into trying to find a solution by pulling together. i feel sorry for lots of private sector people who find themselves out of work but its not the ordinary public sector workers fault.
sorry for getting off the thread issue!!

Im afraid I have to disagree with you . . Most of the spin was from the unions . .

They wont acknowledge or discuss statistical sources (ESRI/CSO) that conflict with their wayward views on public service pay.

If you really believe (which I dont) that most people have been "brainwashed" by the government I have to say, then the other side of the arguement have been brainwashed by the Unions. Whether we think the government are any good or not, they have more of a vested interest in OUR ECONOMY and its recovery, as opposed to the unions who are ONLY interested in their members. Two completely different motives, however you look at it.

Most people angry with the STANCE of some public servants and their unions, is nothing to do with anything the government have said. Its their attitude and assumptions that they are being targeted and attacked, like nobody else has suffered anything. Social welfare and child benefit are being cut. Private sector employees have taken serious pain and continue to do so (but public service unions only use comparisons with private sector when it suits them).

Believe you me, there are ill educated on both sides. But from a majority of people I speak do about this topic, its actually the attitude of some people who constantly ignore the pain the rest of us are going through. Its the whole dismissive nature "Oh I know you lost your job . . But" . . I have seen responses like this from some on these forums . . Its so out of touch with reality and disingenuous.

I will gladly discuss, in detail, the points I have made above, but the problem is that generally most public servants defendents only want to call me a Public service basher or throw out random comments trying to turn this debate into a namecalling school fight.

I understand anybody trying to hold onto their salary, thats just human instinct.