Cuts in Grants in tomorrows budget??

therokerroar

betafrog wrote: »

No offence to yourself OP but to be honest the grant needs to go, it is a poorly administered and badly thought through way of funding students.

Something akin to the Student Loan Company in the UK needs to be brought in instead, and yes I wouldn't be surprised or particularly cut up if the grant was cut in the budget.

And then you would have twice the amount of people on Social Welfare Benefit, what a cracking idea that would be :rolleyes:

Get off your high horse mate.

JBUCD

Grant is needed. I would be lost without it. Only thing that I would like to see changed is the time I recieve the grant. Would love to be able to get the grant money just before I start a semester or the first week of a semester so I have it for when I need supplies, like new books. No way I am getting envolved in this argument.

enda1

JBUCD wrote: »

Grant is needed. I would be lost without it. Only thing that I would like to see changed is the time I recieve the grant. Would love to be able to get the grant money just before I start a semester or the first week of a semester so I have it for when I need supplies, like new books. No way I am getting envolved in this argument.

Why'd you post then?

The grant is not needed. This much is obvious.

It is clear that a student loan would provide the same financial stimulus for students while reducing the financial burden on the tax payer.
How is this hard to understand?

Chucky the tree

El Siglo wrote: »

Do you honestly think the state, the civil service, department of education, the department of social and family affairs actually think about or look at the situation in those terms you've just outlined? They're retarded and slow and don't think like this, it literally is an objective analysis of how much your parents or in the case of over 23's, how much you earn, that's it. They don't care about your situation, they'll never look at how hard you're finding your financial situation, it's literally 'if you fall into this category, here's your grant'. If anything, they're going to make it harder to get the grant in the budget. However, you think that grant recipients are a waste of tax payers money? You're only looking at this in one perspective: "they get free money, I don't... boo hoo." I mean how many people do you think, on the grant actually go on the piss all the time? You do realise that you can't fail when you're on the grant or you **** up your payments and are left living on gulps of air and rice for five or six months. Really, if you had any proof, actual data on the negative benefits of the grant scheme, I'd love to see them I really would. However, from those whom I've encountered on the grant I can easily say that it is not a free ride or a piss up, it's hardship from the go. However, you're probably going to throw the "oh I know one chap who gets a ten grand and drinks it all and does no work and his parents are secret millionaires..."



Yes, other minor costs like paying €100/week in rent, or €10-€15 in ESB, the same in gas etc... and we haven't even put food in our bellies, tea into our cups and rubbish into our bins. By any chance are you living on a different planet?



Did you ever hear of integrated ticketing? It's where you can use one ticket for the bus/luas/metro etc... that's a simple system that most developed countries have, yet it's been on the books in this country for the last century. Do you honestly think something like that would work or could be implemented in any reasonable manner? Have you forgotten that the country is run by the most retarded people on the planet or has this slipped your mind? How much would it cost? What if you live in a poorly serviced area, which there are many in this God forsaken hell hole. What about private operators how would you encourage them? Are you not restricting peoples' mobility then? Is that constitutional?



The fact that you couldn't even spell accommodation just goes to show how ridiculous your statement was presented.



You probably love this idea then. It wouldn't work, it would cost millions to implement and it's simply the most retarded idea I've ever heard of, because you will end up with this...



You do realise how retarded this statement is? I mean, at least when I listen to AK phone show, the people have the excuse of a lack of education and general ignorance for their attitudes but this is coming from a supposed third level student, it's ridiculous. Prove it, conduct a study and examine the consumer habits of higher education grant recipients, or are you still learning about the Nash-Corneau equilibrium in the intro to microeconomics with McDowell?



Thank God you're not studying English or else Declan Kiberd would have a shit fit! However you think it's a shocking system, and do you not think spending €77 billion on loans worth €47 billion (or less) is not worse? Seriously, it's education no matter what way you look at it. Are you not entitled to be educated because your parents are too poor to pay? Really, is this the kind of country we're living in now, that we'll put up with some of the most corrupt politicians in Europe (next to Italy and most of Poland) and yet we're pissing about in an argument over grants for poor students. When times were good I never saw these threads, so when times are bad, bring out the social darwinism and take a sledge to the most vulnerable. It's disgusting.



Yes they have something like that in the US, and it works very well for them...



How do you propose they pay it back? Would this not be a waste of time and entail massive administrative costs??? Again, this smells of either a first year with their first taste of academia or a troll with nothing better to do.
Sure, while we're at it, let's get rid of the free breast examination clinics, the medical card, free secondary education? Sure lets go back to the good old days of the deValera's three 'Rs' because people were happier while dancing at the cross roads and shoveling shit on a farm, while the Doctor, the Priest and School Teacher took care of everyone in the village.



Again how can one pay it back with no job? What do you think after you earn your degree that employers are almost fapping to get you on a contract? The real world doesn't work like that. And the very idea of not only trying to 'cut costs' in this manner but the fact that one is stigmatised on the basis of income is grossly offensive (queuing for food at designated shops or handing over their special ticket to the surly bus driver). What your post has outlined with 'book stamps' etc... is without a doubt one of the most retarded ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. However it might have merit on the AK phone in show, so give Adrian a call or maybe even Gerry Ryan in the morning, he's gone extremely ultra right wing these days and would love to hear your ideas.
Now do you not have your exams this week? Is it not time to hit those books and don't forget to fill in your name and student number in full on the answer booklets.;)

lol. The fact you had counter all of my points by either correcting my spelling or throwing in a petty jibe sums it up. Your whole first paragraph sums it up, you admit the system is flawed. Thank you.

El Siglo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol. The fact you had counter all of my points by either correcting my spelling or throwing in a petty jibe sums it up. Your whole first paragraph sums it up, you admit the system is flawed. Thank you.

I didn't say the system was flawed, I said the people who run it are retarded, and they don't care about your circumstances (i.e. how hard things are for non-grant recipients etc...), they only care about your income. So, no I don't think the system is flawed, I think the people operating it are retarded and slow, there's a difference. Think about say a car for one moment, cars travel at high speeds, they take you where you want to go, they provide a level of freedom and mobility, yet hundreds of people are killed each year in car crashes, does that mean we should abandon the use of cars? No, of course not, people need to be more careful, and that's where I'm arguing from. The idea of a means tested grant, solely on the basis of income is incredibly objective and is the one thing in this country that isn't based on 'who you know'. Petty jibes? I countered your arguments, it wasn't meant to be pretty, shit happens get over it.

betafrog wrote:

No, because as El Siglo and Mr. Nice Guy refuse to grasp, the repayments are linked to the salary you earn when you leave college. You don't start repaying until your earning a certain amount and the repayments are indexed to your salary once you do. If you don't earn you don't pay until you do.

Where are we supposed to get jobs in this country, have you tried yet? I sure as hell have and so have a lot of my friends and yet the best any of us could manage was one chap working on a farm and another working on commission for airtricity. What if these loans were implemented, unemployment is still crap, what do you do when somebody emigrates? Hit them with massive interest when they get back? Will such a loan system be for the former grant recipients only? Why should the most financially vulnerable be forced into debt? If people are this right wing and neoliberal now, I'd hate think what you're going to be like in ten or twenty years time.;)

merc998

Betafrog ur dead right grants out the window we're in a recession and its not vital to have them.get a part time job and pay ur way its the sensable thing and everyone with there heads screwed on would see that.

El Siglo

merc998 wrote: »

Betafrog ur dead right grants out the window we're in a recession and its not vital to have them.get a part time job and pay ur way its the sensable thing and everyone with there heads screwed on would see that.

Yes we're in a recession, sure lets kick the shit out of the poor... fucking disgraceful. Seriously, we're able to recapitalise the banks, €77 billion on NAMA, yet spending on something like grants for low income students is obviously crippling our economy. Read this if you want to know the flaws with the shite everyone is being fed with of late...

DeadMoney

merc998 wrote: »

Betafrog ur dead right grants out the window we're in a recession and its not vital to have them.get a part time job and pay ur way its the sensable thing and everyone with there heads screwed on would see that.

You have absolutely no ****ing clue what you are talking about. Betafrog has a constructive argument with some good points, you are just dumb and ignorant! Please go away.

DeadMoney

El Siglo wrote: »

Yes we're in a recession, sure lets kick the shit out of the poor... fucking disgraceful. Seriously, we're able to recapitalise the banks, €77 billion on NAMA, yet spending on something like grants for low income students is obviously crippling our economy. Read this if you want to know the flaws with the shite everyone is being fed with of late...

Don't incourage him man, he probably thinks foreign nationals 'tuk errr jobs' too.

El Siglo

DeadMoney wrote: »

Don't incourage him man, he probably thinks foreign nationals 'tuk errr jobs' too.

Yeh, sounds like a troll to me.

Chucky the tree

El Siglo wrote: »

Yes, other minor costs like paying €100/week in rent, or €10-€15 in ESB, the same in gas etc... and we haven't even put food in our bellies, tea into our cups and rubbish into our bins. By any chance are you living on a different planet?

Missed the whole point of providing student accomadation obviously. But students still living at home receive a grant don't they?

Did you ever hear of integrated ticketing? It's where you can use one ticket for the bus/luas/metro etc... that's a simple system that most developed countries have, yet it's been on the books in this country for the last century. Do you honestly think something like that would work or could be implemented in any reasonable manner? Have you forgotten that the country is run by the most retarded people on the planet or has this slipped your mind? How much would it cost? What if you live in a poorly serviced area, which there are many in this God forsaken hell hole. What about private operators how would you encourage them? Are you not restricting peoples' mobility then? Is that constitutional?

So every student who gets a grant uses two forms of travel now? Integrated tickets certainly aren't needed for this too work. Buses will get people a huge distance. If they can't be serviced by a bus then obviously other arrangements can be made. If people are so concerned about there mobility being restriced and possible consitutional issues then dont apply for a grand, simple.

The fact that you couldn't even spell accommodation just goes to show how ridiculous your statement was presented.

OMG I missed spelled a word, oh nos!!!! But **** it, lets not bother pointing out why it's ridiculous. Major College likes UCC, UCD, trinity and Limerick all provide campus facilities(mnay more aswell I'm sure) so why is it such a bad idea? 1st preference should go to people who are outside Dublin and on a grant to guarentee them a place to stay and it should be paid directly or else it should be calculated how it costs and give them the excact amount.

You probably love this idea then. It wouldn't work, it would cost millions to implement and it's simply the most retarded idea I've ever heard of, because you will end up with this...

Millions to implement? Do you have a study to back that up?:pac: Not sure why your linking to food stamps for the poor in america. Simply have all college canteens run a food stamp system.

You do realise how retarded this statement is? I mean, at least when I listen to AK phone show, the people have the excuse of a lack of education and general ignorance for their attitudes but this is coming from a supposed third level student, it's ridiculous. Prove it, conduct a study and examine the consumer habits of higher education grant recipients, or are you still learning about the Nash-Corneau equilibrium in the intro to microeconomics with McDowell?

Retardedly true is the problem with the statement.

Thank God you're not studying English or else Declan Kiberd would have a shit fit! However you think it's a shocking system, and do you not think spending €77 billion on loans worth €47 billion (or less) is not worse? Seriously, it's education no matter what way you look at it. Are you not entitled to be educated because your parents are too poor to pay? Really, is this the kind of country we're living in now, that we'll put up with some of the most corrupt politicians in Europe (next to Italy and most of Poland) and yet we're pissing about in an argument over grants for poor students. When times were good I never saw these threads, so when times are bad, bring out the social darwinism and take a sledge to the most vulnerable. It's disgusting.

What quality of education though? Colleges suffer due to not being able to get enough money from fee's and government cutbacks now. It's poor students that get grants though, so people who don't need it still get it. The system is flawed is people who don't need a grant are still receiving one.

Yes they have something like that in the US, and it works very well for them...

Again not relevant. I'm not saying we should bring out a nationwide food stamp program for everyone poor person.

How do you propose they pay it back? Would this not be a waste of time and entail massive administrative costs??? Again, this smells of either a first year with their first taste of academia or a troll with nothing better to do.
Sure, while we're at it, let's get rid of the free breast examination clinics, the medical card, free secondary education? Sure lets go back to the good old days of the deValera's three 'Rs' because people were happier while dancing at the cross roads and shoveling shit on a farm, while the Doctor, the Priest and School Teacher took care of everyone in the village.

How do I propose to pay it back? Lol, get a ****ing job maybe. The rest of your rant is great hyperbole, well done.

Again how can one pay it back with no job? What do you think after you earn your degree that employers are almost fapping to get you on a contract? The real world doesn't work like that. And the very idea of not only trying to 'cut costs' in this manner but the fact that one is stigmatised on the basis of income is grossly offensive (queuing for food at designated shops or handing over their special ticket to the surly bus driver). What your post has outlined with 'book stamps' etc... is without a doubt one of the most retarded ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. However it might have merit on the AK phone in show, so give Adrian a call or maybe even Gerry Ryan in the morning, he's gone extremely ultra right wing these days and would love to hear your ideas.
Now do you not have your exams this week? Is it not time to hit those books and don't forget to fill in your name and student number in full on the answer booklets.;)

So once you get your degree you plan on living on the dole for the rest of your life? Lol, maintenance grant clearly worked wonders for you so. Special bus tickets? Can poor people not use the standard monthly bus ticket everyone else does? If they are so offended by all of this, then don't apply for a grant. I'm sure if that was the only choice they'd soon get over it. lol poor people tbh.

errlloyd

In the context of this thread the quotes like

"50% of people won't pay tax next year"

and

"40% of people pay 50% of tax"

are hilarious.

Pride Fighter

betafrog wrote: »

Well DeadMoney, seems like you'll be ok. Didn't hear anything about a cut in grants today,,,,

There is, 5%. Was not in the actual budget speech but is in the budget.

DeadMoney

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is, 5%. Was not in the actual budget speech but is in the budget.

Yeah saw this earlier, was expecting much worse, 5% is pretty reasonable.

IM0

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is, 5%. Was not in the actual budget speech but is in the budget.

and on that bombshell lets end the show, we have what we need the question has been answered and the thread raped and hijacked with people with adjendas.

Mods close this trainwreck and just start up an inhouse politics thread for all the people who love to moan argue and spend too much time with their parents watching the news and moaning, when there are some who are working their butts off keeping their head above water and hanging on.

dyl10

me@ucd wrote: »

Mods close this trainwreck and just start up an inhouse politics thread for all the people who love to moan argue and spend too much time with their parents watching the news and moaning, when there are some who are working their butts off keeping their head above water and hanging on.

If you don't like it, don't read it?

Neopolitan

betafrog wrote: »

C's parent work as well. But because they're self employed they can see they earn as much as they want. So despite being considerably well off, C get's the same grant as A, but because they grew up living in a house of dishonesty they pretty much piss away the grant. C spends there college years drinking and does pretty much feck all afterwards.

Self employed people earn as much as they want? Why isn't everyone self employed then?

IM0

dyl10 wrote: »

If you don't like it, don't read it?

do you know what a hijack is the origional question has been answered and there is the PO forum for the budget specifically set up.

again Mods.

El Siglo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Missed the whole point of providing student accomodation obviously. But students still living at home receive a grant don't they?

In respect to their distance from the college, it's called the 'adjacent rate'.

So every student who gets a grant uses two forms of travel now? Integrated tickets certainly aren't needed for this too work. Buses will get people a huge distance. If they can't be serviced by a bus then obviously other arrangements can be made. If people are so concerned about there mobility being restriced and possible consitutional issues then dont apply for a grant, simple.

So trying to maintain ones mobility means one should not apply for a grant, that's great, I love the double standards of this system I really do. Sure why not ask them to wear a little golden Star of David? Absolutely ridiculous, it would never work as it could be argued as being unconstitutional (Article 40, Paragraph 4, Subsection 1), so it would never be implemented and would waste time and money in the court.

OMG I missed spelled a word, oh nos!!!! But **** it, lets not bother pointing out why it's ridiculous. Major College likes UCC, UCD, trinity and Limerick all provide campus facilities(mnay more aswell I'm sure) so why is it such a bad idea? 1st preference should go to people who are outside Dublin and on a grant to guarentee them a place to stay and it should be paid directly or else it should be calculated how it costs and give them the exact amount.

Right, sounds like a fair idea to give accommodation to non-adjacent grant recipients, but would that not mean discriminating against students who are not in receipt of this 'new grant' who are from outside of Dublin and do not know Dublin or have family in Dublin (i.e. your typical country person starting college). So because they're not poor enough, they shouldn't be allowed to adjust to the transition of living in Dublin as much as the former? You see, even for non-grant recipients it isn't fair.

Millions to implement? Do you have a study to back that up?:pac: Not sure why your linking to food stamps for the poor in america. Simply have all college canteens run a food stamp system.

Food stamps is an analogy for what your proposing. However, it is ridiculous to propose such a system, because it's open to manipulation. At least with the grant you receive your payment and dispose of it as you wish, and in a lot of cases not wasting it on shite canteen food.

Retardedly true is the problem with the statement.

Fair enough.

What quality of education though? Colleges suffer due to not being able to get enough money from fee's and government cutbacks now. It's poor students that get grants though, so people who don't need it still get it. The system is flawed is people who don't need a grant are still receiving one.

The system is flawed because people like Brady, Nolan, Hegarty et al. receive grossly overestimated wages, not because of grant recipients. They argue "it's because we'd earn this in the private sector and we're worth it", yeh but the private sector at present is pretty fucked, so their wages should be capped, can you imagine how much money could be saved or spent on the actual universities themselves?

Again not relevant. I'm saying we should bring out a nationwide food stamp program for everyone poor person.

Again two tier citizenry, why should the poor pay for the party of the rich? Would it not be more equitable to help the poor as much as possible as it helps to create 'social capital' and equality? Or are these just silly ideals of some crazy bolsheviks?

How do I propose to pay it back? Lol, get a ****ing job maybe. The rest of your rant is great hyperbole, well done.

Again, let me make this as clear as possible:

There are no fucking jobs in this fucking country.

So once you get your degree you plan on living on the dole for the rest of your life? Lol, maintenance grant clearly worked wonders for you so. Special bus tickets? Can poor people not use the standard monthly bus ticket everyone else does? If they are so offended by all of this, then don't apply for a grant. I'm sure if that was the only choice they'd soon get over it. lol poor people tbh.

No the maintenance grant allowed me to be educated, it doesn't stipulate 'this will get you a job'. I'm not on the dole and don't intend on being on it any time soon (I'm a postgrad). However, it's not the fault of the graduate that they can't get a job, it's called a recession. Do you think unemployment is fun or enjoyable, I mean do you see an unemployed graduate the same way as a waster who's never got as far as the school gates? Obviously a graduate wants to work, however if there is no demand there for their labour how the fuck are they going to pay back their loans? And if they did get a job, how much would they have to earn before they start seeing deductions in their pay for this student loan? And after today's budget, I doubt anyone will be earning much anyway.

Here's a question for you, have you ever lived in poverty?
No?
Then you haven't a fucking clue about it.

Chucky the tree

El Siglo wrote: »

So trying to maintain ones mobility means one should not apply for a grant, that's great, I love the double standards of this system I really do. Sure why not ask them to wear a little golden Star of David? Absolutely ridiculous, it would never work as it could be argued as being unconstitutional (Article 40, Paragraph 4, Subsection 1), so it would never be implemented and would waste time and money in the court.

There perfectly entitled to maintain there mobility of the bus, with there monthly bus ticket. Would a sickel and hammer not be more appropriate? I learned that in politics 101. Again, no one is depriving them on their personal liberty. There simply been given an option on using there bus ticket or not. If they don't want to get the bus in there perfectly entitled to find other alternatives, ones they aren't just going to be handed money for though.

Right, sounds like a fair idea to give accommodation to non-adjacent grant recipients, but would that not mean discriminating against students who are not in receipt of this 'new grant' who are from outside of Dublin and do not know Dublin or have family in Dublin (i.e. your typical country person starting college). So because they're not poor enough, they shouldn't be allowed to adjust to the transition of living in Dublin as much as the former? You see, even for non-grant recipients it isn't fair.

Best bit of education they will get, life isn't fair kids. Deal with it. With places to rent being readily available in Dublin now I can't see anyone having major difficulty finding a place very near to college or at the least on a bus route.

Food stamps is an analogy for what your proposing. However, it is ridiculous to propose such a system, because it's open to manipulation. At least with the grant you receive your payment and dispose of it as you wish, and in a lot of cases not wasting it on shite canteen food.

Every system is open to manipulation, you can hardly claim the current one isn't being manipulated. Yes, they dispose of it with alcohol instead in a lot of cases, a much healthier option then canteen food!

The system is flawed because people like Brady, Nolan, Hegarty et al. receive grossly overestimated wages, not because of grant recipients. They argue "it's because we'd earn this in the private sector and we're worth it", yeh but the private sector at present is pretty fucked, so their wages should be capped, can you imagine how much money could be saved or spent on the actual universities themselves?

Cant argue with this, PS pay-rates are a joke.

Again two tier citizenry, why should the poor pay for the party of the rich? Would it not be more equitable to help the poor as much as possible as it helps to create 'social capital' and equality? Or are these just silly ideals of some crazy bolsheviks?

That was a mistake on my part, I meant to stick not in there. A food stamp system for every one is what I think should happen, I don't think it's a horrible idea for students though.

Again, let me make this as clear as possible:

There are no fucking jobs in this fucking country.

There will be jobs again though, so in 3-4 years time when they are finished there degrees employment opportunities might be improved, if not they use there social welfare to pay back the loan. :pac:

No the maintenance grant allowed me to be educated, it doesn't stipulate 'this will get you a job'. I'm not on the dole and don't intend on being on it any time soon (I'm a postgrad). However, it's not the fault of the graduate that they can't get a job, it's called a recession. Do you think unemployment is fun or enjoyable, I mean do you see an unemployed graduate the same way as a waster who's never got as far as the school gates? Obviously a graduate wants to work, however if there is no demand there for their labour how the fuck are they going to pay back their loans? And if they did get a job, how much would they have to earn before they start seeing deductions in their pay for this student loan? And after today's budget, I doubt anyone will be earning much anyway.

Here's a question for you, have you ever lived in poverty?
No?
Then you haven't a fucking clue about it.

Please, it's a small enough loan. You make it sound as if there being lumped with a bloody mortgage for 30 years. A loan under €10k would not at all difficult to pay back. Technically to qualify for a grant no but I didn't realize you needed to experience something first hand to ever comment on it.

El Siglo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

There perfectly entitled to maintain there mobility of the bus, with there monthly bus ticket. Would a sickel and hammer not be more appropriate? I learned that in politics 101. Again, no one is depriving them on their personal liberty. There simply been given an option on using there bus ticket or not. If they don't want to get the bus in there perfectly entitled to find other alternatives, ones they aren't just going to be handed money for though.

Yes you are, in order for them to avail of travel their movement is restricted, under the current scheme this is not restricted and is left at the discretion of the recipient. This is ridiculous so it is, and you are forcing people to choose between low cost travel and their own personal mobility. Why should they have to make that choice?

Best bit of education they will get, life isn't fair kids. Deal with it. With places to rent being readily available in Dublin now I can't see anyone having major difficulty finding a place very near to college or at the least on a bus route.

Life isn't fair but a state or public institution should be. You might not find difficulty, what about the people that have rarely been up in Dublin, "tough shit culchie, sort yourself out!"

Every system is open to manipulation, you can hardly claim the current one isn't being manipulated. Yes, they dispose of it with alcohol instead in a lot of cases, a much healthier option then canteen food!

Prove it, prove how many grant recipients dispose of their grant on alcohol.

Cant argue with this, PS pay-rates are a joke.

Would you not think then a great saving might be made by capping their pay, along with lecturers pays as well, and encourage early retirement schemes? Would this be more economical than what you're proposing?

That was a mistake on my part, I meant to stick not in there. A food stamp system for every one is what I think should happen, I don't think it's a horrible idea for students though.

For every student, that would be fair, students would save buckets of money and it would encourage healthier diets and not the pot-noodle and pasta (if it was done right but given the way things are done in this country, that never happens).

There will be jobs again though, so in 3-4 years time when they are finished there degrees employment opportunities might be improved, if not they use there social welfare to pay back the loan. :pac:

Do you really think that? Because we're going to magically attract investment, the EU will give us more structural funds and Bob's your uncle the yanks are back in the country with Dell et al? It'll take at least a decade before employment is stable in this country. So you think then, if they're on unemployment benefit, that paying say 10-15% of it on a student loan is fair? My biggest contention is, what if they emigrate? What if they say, "fuck that banana republic I'm off to Oz", do you think this loan system will work then? Also, what if they decide to go to Scotland, free fees and cheaper living costs, do you think that might encourage out migration?

Please, it's a small enough loan. You make it sound as if there being lumped with a bloody mortgage for 30 years. A loan under €10k would not at all difficult to pay back.

Yes, tell that to someone who is unemployed, I've seen threatening letters sent to people over minor amounts, a relative of mine received a threatening letter for €75 from a hospital. You see a loan is easy to pay off when you have money, however irrespective of a loan size, it could be €10 or €10,000 if you don't have the money, you don't have it and can't pay it back. Would you like to see people then being brought to court over these 'small loans'? Would it not be a waste of time?

Technically to qualify for a grant no but I didn't realize you needed to experience something first hand to ever comment on it.

I wasn't referring to the grant specifically, but more poverty in general. I will say, it's fucking hardship. Even to get a grant is like something out of "Angela's Ashes" where they were queuing at the St. Vincent de Paul. It's not a free-ride.

Why are grant recipients so bad? What have they ever done that was so insidious to warrant such alternatives and demonising? Is it because they receive 'free money'? Really, how much money has been wasted by the government over the last ten years? How much was spent on electronic voting, on limos, hotels, flights, expenses etc... What is wrong with helping someone out who is going to college to receive an education? Is it such a bad expense? It's getting someone through college, it's helping someone up the social ladder, it feeds them, clothes them, allows them to get home and see their families, it allows them to enjoy their time in college, it allows them to buy books, pens etc... Is this a total waste of money? When the fuck did everyone become Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan? Fucking hell, this is low so it is, this is literally sickening. Going after some of the most marginalised and vulnerable like this. I'm actually disgusted by this attitude. Really is this what; Pearse, Connolly, Plunkett, MacDiarmada, Clarke, MacDonagh, Ceannt died for? I know it sounds 'mad' in our era of revisionist history to even mention these 'terrorists' but did a group of men die to see the strong and wealthy take the piss out of the weak and poor? Is this the kind of country we'd like to see, replacing british rule with catholic rule, replacing that with unbridled neo-liberalism and now the creation of the 'workfare' state. Obviously helping out your fellow countryman or countrywoman is a total waste of expenses. I'm sure there's an alternative white elephant that money could be spent on.

El Siglo

betafrog wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with grant recipients, jesus you make this sound like a personal attack. It's not, it's an attack on the grant system. Stop being so offended just because you've lived in poverty you think you should get a leg up over everybody else, why shouldn't everyone be given the opportunity of a leg up with the possibility to pay it back. Why should you be able to enjoy college more than the next person just because your mammy and daddy earn less money? Why shouldn't everyone be given the opportunity to "enjoy" college the same way as you do.

What do you think because I was in receipt of the grant I enjoyed college more than you or any other non-grant recipients? It was fucking hardship so it was, absolute nightmare to get through, so don't tell me I had an easy fucking ride at the tax payers expense. Do you know how difficult it is to live on the grant? It is absolutely awful so it is. Why the fuck shouldn't I not get help because my parent(s) didn't earn enough, why shouldn't I not get help with education? Are you going to begrudge people on the dole as well? Sure that's even more money and more people on it, sure why not get them to take out loans and pay them back later on when they're employed? Why is the grant scheme so bad, is it because there are people receiving money from the government and you're not? Honestly, do you think that money being spent on grants is wasted money? Have you ever heard of FÁS?

And stop using the emigration excuse. Do you honestly think that people are gonna stay in the country just because they were given a free ride through college? Just because the state paid your fees and living expenses your gonna sit around for years thinking "ah sure, the economies **** and I can't get a decent job but sure good auld eire paid for my way through college so I'll stick it out sure". Really?

I wasn't saying that, what I was saying is that a loan system won't work because people would be better to just fuck off out of the place as opposed to staying (hence minimal repayments on loans). Emigration is not a fucking excuse, it's a fucking fact that we're all going to have to get used to, regardless of whether you received the grant or not. I love the 'straw man' you built, really a tremendous argument you've managed to construct right there.;)

Because if you honestly think that everyone shares a similar view you're deluded.

I'm deluded for thinking that I everyone deserves the opportunity for education regardless of class... yes that is quite delusional so it is. Have you seen the fucking budget yet? I'm going to make this as crystal as possible, the government doesn't want young people here, they want us to emigrate. If you think that's delusional then you're either in FF or blind.

And stop using the "Pearse, Connolly, Plunkett, MacDiarmada, Clarke, MacDonagh and Ceannt fought for my right to go to college" bull ****. How is it going after the most marginalised members of our society to want everyone to be given the same opportunity, which a loan system would provide. Instead just because your parents have less money than everybody else's you think you should be given an easier ride and more of opportunity than everybody else.

What's wrong with Pearse et al.? What they did die so that everyone could be treated equal regardless. A loan system won't work, no matter how much the loan is, if you don't have the money to pay it back then you're fucked with this loan and then it's a bad credit rating, good luck getting a fucking loan for that postgrad course then. I think, everybody should have the opportunity of going to college regardless of how wealthy or poor their parents are, of course this wasn't always the case in this God forsaken, inbred shit hole of a country.

Why are we fighting with each other? We're all students and yet it seems half of us have turned into either Kevin Myers/John Waters/Gerry Ryan or the other half has turned into 'nuts' and 'crazies' etc... Do you want to know who the real fuckers are, the ones we should be going after?
Well they're supposed to 'work' in this place for about five months of the year:


Folks, whether you receive the grant or not it's not the point, we're all getting fucked over by these bastards. If you want someone to blame, blame them, not your fellow students. Seriously, stop listening to Gerry Ryan and middle aged people in general and stop reading the indo, they're all idiots. We can go around in circles about the pros and cons of a loan system but either way, we're all getting fucked by the same dicks. Seriously, these creatures have bailed out banks and developers, given generous pensions to the likes of Molloy et al., they keep overstaffed and overpaid agencies like FÁS and the HSE, they're cutting every form of capital spending, social welfare etc..., yet they'll be receiving two pensions, they set their friends up in state jobs. They've done feck all for job creation, there's no real plan in place. So, I'd take off the Milton Friedman hat for one second and look at the real problem, the government and not students.

Chucky the tree

El Siglo wrote: »

Yes you are, in order for them to avail of travel their movement is restricted, under the current scheme this is not restricted and is left at the discretion of the recipient. This is ridiculous so it is, and you are forcing people to choose between low cost travel and their own personal mobility. Why should they have to make that choice?

There being provided something by the government. I'm pretty sure if the government decide not to provide this then people can't do anything about it. For example if the OAP's are told they can't get free travel anymore I doubt they can sue the government for taking away there mobility. They just have to pay for it themselves. If the government cut the grant but offer bus tickets on top of the cut grant I seriously doubt any student would have a leg to stand on if he tried to sue.

Life isn't fair but a state or public institution should be. You might not find difficulty, what about the people that have rarely been up in Dublin, "tough shit culchie, sort yourself out!"

Plenty of of 1st years life in rented accomadation in Dublin and have no problem managing.

Prove it, prove how many grant recipients dispose of their grant on alcohol.

Did you also work in part time while you were in college? Either that or you never went drinking in your 3 years at college I take it?

Would you not think then a great saving might be made by capping their pay, along with lecturers pays as well, and encourage early retirement schemes? Would this be more economical than what you're proposing?

Depends what you mean by economical, it might save money but I don't really think the idea of discouraging lecturers away from teaching is a good idea. So far I've found most UCD lecturers to be very good. I'd rather see a government go after secondary school teachers. Not much point handing out grants for people to go to college if the education they get is bollox and services are poor.

Do you really think that? Because we're going to magically attract investment, the EU will give us more structural funds and Bob's your uncle the yanks are back in the country with Dell et al? It'll take at least a decade before employment is stable in this country. So you think then, if they're on unemployment benefit, that paying say 10-15% of it on a student loan is fair? My biggest contention is, what if they emigrate? What if they say, "fuck that banana republic I'm off to Oz", do you think this loan system will work then? Also, what if they decide to go to Scotland, free fees and cheaper living costs, do you think that might encourage out migration?

I don't think it will take a decade, but even if it does I can't see someone with a degree spending a decade on the dole. They leave the country and get a job somewhere else, they can still pay the loan back that way. I'm not sure exactly how other countries have the whole issue set up but I'm sure someones thought of this scenario and there is a workable solution to it.:pac: People are going to emigrate if there are no jobs here, student loan or not. I don't think many people with a degree won't decide to become a long term doler just because he doesn't have a student loan. You make people leaving this country sound like a bad thing, Less people on the dole + less spend on grant money seems like a good economic situation for me. Also, as you mentioned earlier about people having to live in Dublin being a hardship, I don't know if they all be happy to leg it over to Scotland.

Yes, tell that to someone who is unemployed, I've seen threatening letters sent to people over minor amounts, a relative of mine received a threatening letter for €75 from a hospital. You see a loan is easy to pay off when you have money, however irrespective of a loan size, it could be €10 or €10,000 if you don't have the money, you don't have it and can't pay it back. Would you like to see people then being brought to court over these 'small loans'? Would it not be a waste of time?

I'm a mature student and have loan from the bank, I'd have given anything to have the chance for one provided by the government that give me decent flexibility in paying it back long term. As you said yourself the grant system isn't perfect as it done by income levels so someone who parent(s) is just over that gets ****'d over. I fail to see apart from a government loan system how that be fixed? If you use income + other methods you'll always have someone who just misses out.

I wasn't referring to the grant specifically, but more poverty in general. I will say, it's fucking hardship. Even to get a grant is like something out of "Angela's Ashes" where they were queuing at the St. Vincent de Paul. It's not a free-ride.

So would a loan system were people can get more then the grant to live a bit better not be a good thing? Instead of having to slum there way through college?

Why are grant recipients so bad? What have they ever done that was so insidious to warrant such alternatives and demonising? Is it because they receive 'free money'? Really, how much money has been wasted by the government over the last ten years? How much was spent on electronic voting, on limos, hotels, flights, expenses etc... What is wrong with helping someone out who is going to college to receive an education? Is it such a bad expense? It's getting someone through college, it's helping someone up the social ladder, it feeds them, clothes them, allows them to get home and see their families, it allows them to enjoy their time in college, it allows them to buy books, pens etc... Is this a total waste of money? When the fuck did everyone become Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan? Fucking hell, this is low so it is, this is literally sickening. Going after some of the most marginalised and vulnerable like this. I'm actually disgusted by this attitude. Really is this what; Pearse, Connolly, Plunkett, MacDiarmada, Clarke, MacDonagh, Ceannt died for? I know it sounds 'mad' in our era of revisionist history to even mention these 'terrorists' but did a group of men die to see the strong and wealthy take the piss out of the weak and poor? Is this the kind of country we'd like to see, replacing british rule with catholic rule, replacing that with unbridled neo-liberalism and now the creation of the 'workfare' state. Obviously helping out your fellow countryman or countrywoman is a total waste of expenses. I'm sure there's an alternative white elephant that money could be spent on.

I don't have any problem with people who get a grant, fair play. Even the ones who don't come close to deserving it. I know if I was 18 out of school had a grant I'd be saving every little penny by not buying books etc to go for nights on the piss instead. I'm not saying this is what all people on a grant do, but they do go out drinking. I just don't see how it's justifiable for people to be given money to spend at there own leisure when it's meant to get them through college. As for your helping out the poor rant, gimme a break. I suppose you were disgusted to see cuts to unemployment benefit and child benefit?

El Siglo

Chucky the tree wrote:

Rant etc...

I could retort every single argument you've made, but I couldn't be arsed (doing a masters & busy/don't care, spending my wad of grant money on hookers, cocaine and booze). However, your attitude towards social welfare recipients (which includes my own family members) is sickening, you're not worth the effort.

Awaits barrage of posts saying "ya were beaten, got nothing to say" etc...;)

Pathetic.

Pride Fighter

betafrog wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with grant recipients, jesus you make this sound like a personal attack. It's not, it's an attack on the grant system. Stop being so offended just because you've lived in poverty you think you should get a leg up over everybody else, why shouldn't everyone be given the opportunity of a leg up with the possibility to pay it back. Why should you be able to enjoy college more than the next person just because your mammy and daddy earn less money? Why shouldn't everyone be given the opportunity to "enjoy" college the same way as you do.
And stop using the emigration excuse. Do you honestly think that people are gonna stay in the country just because they were given a free ride through college? Just because the state paid your fees and living expenses your gonna sit around for years thinking "ah sure, the economies **** and I can't get a decent job but sure good auld eire paid for my way through college so I'll stick it out sure". Really? Because if you honestly think that everyone shares a similar view you're deluded.

And stop using the "Pearse, Connolly, Plunkett, MacDiarmada, Clarke, MacDonagh and Ceannt fought for my right to go to college" bull ****. How is it going after the most marginalised members of our society to want everyone to be given the same opportunity, which a loan system would provide. Instead just because your parents have less money than everybody else's you think you should be given an easier ride and more of opportunity than everybody else.

My eyes are tired from reading this thread. I'll be brief. El Siglo and Mr. Nice guy are right IMO, you and some others are wrong. Without the grant system I would not be here and most of my friends too.

What I will concede is that it is unfair that wealthy parents who do not care about their children/young adults going through college and offering no support should get some assistance too.

Chucky the tree

El Siglo wrote: »

I could retort every single argument you've made, but I couldn't be arsed (doing a masters & busy/don't care, spending my wad of grant money on hookers, cocaine and booze). However, your attitude towards social welfare recipients (which includes my own family members) is sickening, you're not worth the effort.

Awaits barrage of posts saying "ya were beaten, got nothing to say" etc...;)

Pathetic.

It was a mere debate, no winners or losers in it imo. When I said "helping out the poor, gimme a break" there is only so much help that realistically be given, a poor way of phrasing it on my part. I know plenty of people on the dole. The simple fact is it is to much money. Anyway I still enjoyed listen to your side of the matter. Goodluck with the coke, booze and hookers!

El Siglo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It was a mere debate, no winners or losers in it imo. When I said "helping out the poor, gimme a break" there is only so much help that realistically be given, a poor way of phrasing it on my part. I know plenty of people on the dole. The simple fact is it is to much money. Anyway I still enjoyed listen to your side of the matter. Goodluck with the coke, booze and hookers!

I intend to "playa", this is what "yo doe be payin fo"! "Know wha I'm sayin?";)

scange01

Interesting thread.

It's not that I'm against the grant, the idea is worthy and genuine, but a new system has to be looked at(Or the distribution of grants completely overhauled), as the current one is, tbh, wildly inefficient and a bit of a shambles. As many people as the grant has genuinely helped, it has also been wasted on as many students who are clearly not in need of it, as well as missing out on students whose parents are on the cut-off mark.

It's not the idea that's wrong, it's the execution.

Chucky the tree

El Siglo wrote: »

I intend to "playa", this is what "yo doe be payin fo"! "Know wha I'm sayin?";)

Big pimpin'. Girl on the right looks like she probably goes to UCD.:pac: