Against the Lenihan oligarchy in Irish politics

Rebelheart

I was posting this in another thread in response to people defending this family, but once I started I couldn't stop. This is getting its own thread because that family - three of whom are currently senior Fianna Fáil politicians - epitomise so much of what is wrong about Irish politics today.

ninty9er wrote: »

Lenihan is the only reason the government hasn't fallen yet.

The entire Lenihan family are treacherous deceitful scumbags - all of them. I am using my words carefully. As long ago as the late 1980s as a child I detested that family, wholly because when 7 of my older brothers and sisters had been forced to emigrate from this country that guy's scumbag father and second in command of the Haughey kleptocracy, Brian Lenihan Snr, came on RTÉ telling my family and countless more that emigration was good: "that's good, let them go; we can't all live on a small island". I remember my mother's face to this day, and my father's anger. I remember their worry, I remember when my 21-year-old brother rang back from New York in 1989 to tell us he had just got engaged and how my Mam cried incontrollably because he was now never coming home. Just writing it; it feels like yesterday.

Republicans? No, that family, the Lenihan family, is nothing of the sort. They are not our people. They do not empathise with us.

Then we have that extraordinarily arrogant woman, Mary O'Rourke. Of all the profoundly obtuse things which she has said in all her years, her accusation that anybody who questioned Patrick Bartholomew Ahern's integrity while he was out of Ireland was guilty of "treason" rests as the most detestable remark I have heard since, well, since her brother spoke with relief about my older brothers and sisters leaving Ireland. She subsequently came on Morning Ireland to declare, like her 16th century English namesake, that if the Green Party pulled out of the Fianna Fáil-led government they, too, would be guilty of "treason". Once again, the interests of her political party were equated with the interests of Ireland. Contemptible.

And then we have this Brian Lenhian junior character who some (rather pathetic) people are trying to promote as a (relatively speaking) "hero" of this government and state. This is the same Brian Lenihan who introduced his last budget in memory of his father, the aforementioned second-in-command in Haughey's kleptocracy who delighted in the emigration of seven of my older brothers and sisters. This is, yes, the same Brian Lenihan junior who left Ireland to spend thousands of pounds buying an education in the University of Cambridge, England and then turned around and accused anybody who shopped in Newry or Enniskillen of "treason" and questioned their "patriotism". Ireland was, clearly, not good enough for the Lenihan oligarchy, and our education system was beneath their aspirations and their sense of patriotism. Ireland is, however, good enough for the peasants who should have the requisite sense of "patriotism", Lenihan-style.

That family, their notions, their contempt for us, their belief in a double stand on the issue of patriotism, and the origins of their wealth in Charles Haughey's kleptocracy, utterly repel me.

They personify the continuous ethical corruption from the Haughey and Ahern era.

Pride Fighter

Intelligently worded and I fully agree. You have to consider the media bias in this country, RTE is more or less FF state propaganda, with the likes of Miriam O'Callaghan and Ryan Tubridy being from FF families. Independent news and media, the evening hearald and Irish Independent are bastions of FF and the right in general. It is the national media telling us that Lenihan jnr is a future Taoiseach and is doing a great job in finance.

He is doing a terrible job in finance. But because he is not a fat alcoholic like Brian Cowen and is not stupid enough to credit Einstein with the theory of evolution like Mary Coughlan he gets portrayed as some saviour.

OP you are obviously an intellegent guy who can see beyond the spin. I applaud you.

Btw, you forgot about Conor Lenihan's rascist remark about the Turkish GAMA workers a few years ago.

ArmaniJeanss

Rebelheart wrote: »

This is the same Brian Lenihan who introduced his last budget in memory of his father, the aforementioned second-in-command in Haughey's kleptocracy who delighted in the emigration of seven of my older brothers and sisters. This is, yes, the same Brian Lenihan junior who left Ireland to spend thousands of pounds buying an education in the University of Cambridge

Stuff like this lets you down Rebelheart. Because a lot of your post has sort of convinced me you have a good case but then I do a rudimentary google search and find that he did his further education in Trinity College Dublin, Cambridge, and the Kings Inn Henrietta St Dublin.
So like countless Irish students he did a portion of his 3rd level education abroad. (my nephew is currently in Sweden for one year after 2 in UCD so is that some stain upon his character?)

And that gets me wondering is the rest of your post rubbish as well?

Pride Fighter

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Stuff like this lets you down Rebelheart. Because a lot of your post has sort of convinced me you have a good case but then I do a rudimentary google search and find that he did his further education in Trinity College Dublin, Cambridge, and the Kings Inn Henrietta St Dublin.
So like countless Irish students he did a portion of his 3rd level education abroad. (my nephew is currently in Sweden for one year after 2 in UCD so is that some stain upon his character?)

And that gets me wondering is the rest of your post rubbish as well?

How is his post rubbish? Attending one of the most elitist University in the world which has fees well in excess of 20k per year is not comparable to the University of Goteborg, which has low fees if any as that is for an erasmus year.

nesf

Rebelheart wrote: »

The entire Lenihan family are treacherous deceitful scumbags - all of them.

This part of your post is not acceptable. Don't target an entire family with insults purely because of the perceived actions of two members! It undermines whatever good points you make after that.

ArmaniJeanss

Pride Fighter wrote: »

How is his post rubbish? Attending one of the most elitist University in the world which has fees well in excess of 20k per year

I guess I just don't have a problem with someone doing part of their education in the best college that their families circumstances can pay for.
I wouldn't hesitate to send a kid of mine to Oxford or LSE or Queens Belfast or Harvard if I thought it was the best and I could afford it.
I think that where he did a portion of his education is an incredibly weak thing to attack him on.

I'd have much the same attitude towards the OP judging him because of a comment his father made.
FF voters get criticised for voting for the son/daughter of the person they'd previously voted for, the 'FF family seat' - I agree with this criticism.

But conversely I also have much the same problem with not voting for someone because of their relatives - its two sides of the same coin.

Judge him on his actions, and in my opinion he is doing a reasonable job.
I suspect neither of us will change the others mind on this so I'll bow out.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Soldie

Rebelheart wrote: »

Republicans? No, that family, the Lenihan family, is nothing of the sort. They are not our people. They do not empathise with us.

This tone is echoed throughout your rant. Who are "our people" and what are their views? People living in Ireland are not a politically and culturally homogeneous entity.

Rebelheart

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Stuff like this lets you down Rebelheart. Because a lot of your post has sort of convinced me you have a good case but then I do a rudimentary google search and find that he did his further education in Trinity College Dublin, Cambridge, and the Kings Inn Henrietta St Dublin.
So like countless Irish students he did a portion of his 3rd level education abroad. (my nephew is currently in Sweden for one year after 2 in UCD so is that some stain upon his character?)

And that gets me wondering is the rest of your post rubbish as well?

My point was straightforward: Brian Lenihan has repeatedly criticised Irish people for shopping in the north, and specifically questioned their patriotism. Just how many shopping trips to the north would it take before you can pay the fees to enter Cambridge University in the United Kingdom, yes in the same state that this Lenihan guy is condemning the "little people" for shopping in?

It shouldn't need two more sentences to explain that individual's hypocrisy on the issue of 'patriotism'.

Rebelheart

Soldie wrote: »

This tone is echoed throughout your rant. Who are "our people" and what are their views? People living in Ireland are not a politically and culturally homogeneous entity.

"Our people" are those whom the Cambridge-educated Brian Lenihan is condemning when he questions their patriotism for purchasing goods outside this jurisdiction. It is anybody outside the parasitical kleptocracy that is this family and their now generations-old place at the heart of Irish political corruption.

You clearly have no problem with them - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63039802&postcount=15 - and their support for the Haughey and Ahern dynasties; obviously enough people "think" sufficiently like you to keep them in power. I don't. Get over it.

sceptre

Pride Fighter wrote: »

How is his post rubbish? Attending one of the most elitist University in the world which has fees well in excess of 20k per year

They do don't Irish-style markups. The undergrad fees are currently at £3225 for all Cambridge courses unless you're coming from outside the EU. Even those paying a full markup for doing their second degree pay less than about £8000 or so. Obviously they'd have been less than that when Lenihan went there.

Soldie

Rebelheart wrote: »

"Our people" are those whom the Cambridge-educated Brian Lenihan is condemning when he questions their patriotism for purchasing goods outside this jurisdiction. It is anybody outside the parasitical kleptocracy that is this family and their now generations-old place at the heart of Irish political corruption.

You clearly have no problem with them and their support for the Haughey and Ahern dynasties; obviously enough people "think" sufficiently like you to keep them in power. I don't. Get over it.

Since I "clearly" have no problem with them then you'll have no problem substantiating that claim. Go ahead.

Your point, essentially, is that a couple of politicians are hypocrits, and that they happen to be related to each other. The reality is that most politicians are hypocrits, whether they're related or not.

Rebelheart

Soldie wrote: »

Your point, essentially, is that a couple of politicians are hypocrits, and that they happen to be related to each other. The reality is that most politicians are hypocrits, whether they're related or not.

No, it's that this family via its nepotism, alliance and long-standing loyalty to remarkably dubious characters like Charles James Haughey and Patrick Bartholomew Ahern, remain a central family in the corruption of Irish politics. It is time for them not to be seen as some sideshow but rather as the principal familial continuity with this particularly corrupt tradition in political life.

Until their loyalty and participation in both of the above regimes is accepted for what it is, they will continue to dupe people into believing they are unconnected to, never mind central to, that/this corruption.

Rebelheart

nesf wrote: »

This part of your post is not acceptable. Don't target an entire family with insults purely because of the perceived actions of two members! It undermines whatever good points you make after that.

They have lived off the fat of this land for many decades now. By the "entire Lenihan family" I mean the family of Brian Lenihan senior and his sister Mary O'Rourke. They, collectively,have looked after their own, accused those who threatened the kleptocracies which they supported - supported wholeheartedly, lest we forget - of "treason" and brazenly lied about the real state of this State in their cover-up.

If you, or anybody here, does not get a deep queasy feeling of revulsion when you hear Mary O Rourke come on the radio next time to defend the same crap she's been defending since the halcyon days of Charles James Haughey, I don't know what to say.

nesf

Rebelheart wrote: »

They have lived off the fat of this land for many decades now. By the "entire Lenihan family" I mean the family of Brian Lenihan senior and his sister Mary O'Rourke. They, collectively,have looked after their own, accused those who threatened the kleptocracies which they supported - supported wholeheartedly, lest we forget - of "treason" and brazenly lied about the real state of this State in their cover-up.

If you, or anybody here, does not get a deep queasy feeling of revulsion when you hear Mary O Rourke come on the radio next time to defend the same crap she's been defending since the halcyon days of Charles James Haughey, I don't know what to say.

The way you phrased it could have been interpreted as you attacking the non-politicians in the family, that was the problem.

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

even leaving the issue of currency exchange aside , retailers in the south are not operating on a level playing field with their counterparts in the north , unless retalers down south were to sell at a loss , they could not undercut those opperating in the north , you know aswell as i do the goverment does nothing to helps business in the south regarding local authority charges , minimum wage , energy costs , i dont mean to sound like im judging you but surely if at all possible we should try and keep money in this jurisdiction , is shopping up north not a case of two steps forward , three steps back and quite short sighted

Hillel

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Unpatriotic.

eigrod

For those Irish citizens who could not get outside the state to spend their hard earned money, don't worry.....John O' Donoghue did a very good job of it on your behalf. He took vast amounts of your money on his foreign trips and made a very good job of spending it for you. You can rest assured that your money was well spent and was not confined to just John himself as he made sure he spread it around a bit by including his wife and a few cronies on his trips also.

Shea O'Meara

Today Lenihan announces a 15% cut in salary, neglects to mention it includes the previous 10%, so in fact he should have announced a 5% cut. Sneaky f***.

Rebelheart

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Today Lenihan announces a 15% cut in salary, neglects to mention it includes the previous 10%, so in fact he should have announced a 5% cut. Sneaky f***.

Thank you for mentioning this. And thank you very much to Richard Bruton for telling everybody this in his speech after the budget.

It was a typically sly and deceitful move on Lenihan's part. I hope somebody will directly confront him on this issue.

Rebelheart

irish_bob wrote: »

even leaving the issue of currency exchange aside , retailers in the south are not operating on a level playing field with their counterparts in the north , unless retalers down south were to sell at a loss , they could not undercut those opperating in the north , you know aswell as i do the goverment does nothing to helps business in the south regarding local authority charges , minimum wage , energy costs , i dont mean to sound like im judging you but surely if at all possible we should try and keep money in this jurisdiction , is shopping up north not a case of two steps forward , three steps back and quite short sighted

I'll grant you that there is a profound hypocrisy among those who shop in the north, but expect - nay, demand - the much higher wages and social welfare benefits of the south. You better say that very quietly around here, however.

I do agree that genuine patriotism has a place in the current crisis. I do not accept - not in a million years - that any member of the Lenihan family in Irish politics is in a position to lecture us about being patriotic considering that they have been a central supporting family of the Haughey and Ahern regimes which have shown an abject disregard for genuine patriotism and honour in public life.

jimmycrackcorm

Rebelheart wrote: »

The entire Lenihan family are treacherous deceitful scumbags - all of them. I am using my words carefully. As long ago as the late 1980s as a child I detested that family, wholly because when 7 of my older brothers and sisters had been forced to emigrate from this country that guy's scumbag father and second in command of the Haughey kleptocracy, Brian Lenihan Snr, came on RTÉ telling my family and countless more that emigration was good: "that's good, let them go; we can't all live on a small island". I remember my mother's face to this day, and my father's anger. I remember their worry, I remember when my 21-year-old brother rang back from New York in 1989 to tell us he had just got engaged and how my Mam cried incontrollably because he was now never coming home. Just writing it; it feels like yesterday.

While you are going through your emotional rant about emigration, I might point out that it has been around long before any Lenihans popped on the political scene. Also I don't follow your argument about how they are to blame for emigration.

Many Irish people also did exceptionally well out of emigration - in fact you should really be blaming your sister-in-law for preventing your brother from returning especially when jobs were plentiful.

Moreso, the global recession and the restriction on immigration in the traditional avenues of emigration now mean that our social welfare bill now has to cater for this small island....

Idbatterim

Atleast Lenihan has now started making inroads into the mess! and all the opposition especially Labour can do is complain about the Social welfare receiving a tiny cut, if you not in the 21-25 age bracket! We all complain about our politicians, but if you were having to deal with the s**t they do in and out from the opposition and the large amount of the moronic electorate in this country, then they deserve every cent they get!

meditraitor

Idbatterim wrote: »

Atleast Lenihan has now started making inroads into the mess! and all the opposition especially Labour can do is complain about the Social welfare receiving a tiny cut, if you not in the 21-25 age bracket! We all complain about our politicians, but if you were having to deal with the s**t they do in and out from the opposition and the large amount of the moronic electorate in this country, then they deserve every cent they get!

A majority over the past 15 years,

whynotwhycanti

I find this 'unpatriotic' tag given to people who shop up north so immature and petty. It takes away from the real problem here i.e. why oh why are prices so much more expensive down south than up north? Why are we one of the most expensive countries in the world? Why are we getting so ripped off? In my opinion it is unpatriotic to continue to shop in the republic when prices are so inflated and basically a rip off. I put the blame completely on the government for the difference in price as they fuelled the inflation that happened during the celtic tiger. Why oh why would i shop in the republic if i can drive an hour away and get things for 40% less. Why would i pay over inflated prices, to be patriotic. In my opinion it is unpatriotic to shop in the republic and pay rip off prices. People have to vote with their feet and the only way we can make this country less of a rip off is to send out the signal that we are not going to stand here and be ripped off but we will take our money else where.

Our government do not react to simple protest. The only way we can make them realise that they have out priced its citizens is to show them that we are willing to drive an hour up north to buy items for cheaper. That my friend is patriotic. Sitting by and simply putting up with it is not patriotic so get off your high horse. We have already seen how multi national companies are matching their sterling prices. Maybe all those unpatriotic people shopping up north did more for the prices down south than the holier than thou real patriots who have continued to shop down south and pay rip off prices.

Essexboy

Local councils eg Leitrim County Council, government departments eg the Department of Defence
give contracts to suppliers from the North of Ireland. If they can do it why can't the Plain People shop in the North without being abused?

alejandro1977

Soldie wrote: »

This tone is echoed throughout your rant. Who are "our people" and what are their views? People living in Ireland are not a politically and culturally homogeneous entity.

"our people" are people who can't get into good international universities, it says a lot for your [the OP's] regard for higher education that you hold Cambridge in such contempt. I know of several others who did Masters there after doing their undergrad at TCD/UCD like Lenihan.

Executive Steve

irish_bob wrote: »

even leaving the issue of currency exchange aside , retailers in the south are not operating on a level playing field with their counterparts in the north , unless retalers down south were to sell at a loss , they could not undercut those opperating in the north , you know aswell as i do the goverment does nothing to helps business in the south regarding local authority charges , minimum wage , energy costs , i dont mean to sound like im judging you but surely if at all possible we should try and keep money in this jurisdiction , is shopping up north not a case of two steps forward , three steps back and quite short sighted

We're all in the EU - I'm sure the Dutch get mighty annoyed at the fact that a large proportion of the population living around the border with Germany buy their petrol across the border, or resent the fact that people prefer to travel south to Belgian nightclubs...

It's up to a government to facilitate those trying to make a living by running their economy in a sensible way in the presence of competition across the border..

I'd say that if enough of us shopped up north the way we're perfectly entitled to then perhaps they'd start to come to their senses...

Executive Steve

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Many Irish people also did exceptionally well out of emigration - in fact you should really be blaming your sister-in-law for preventing your brother from returning especially when jobs were plentiful.

The only problem with Ireland really is that everyone with an ounce of initiative in them left in the 80's and did went and did very well indeed elsewhere, to the point where the only ones left to run the country were well connected gombeens who had no need to go anywhere...

They're the ones that screwed us...

Hillel

Idbatterim wrote: »

Atleast Lenihan has now started making inroads into the mess! and all the opposition especially Labour can do is complain about the Social welfare receiving a tiny cut, if you not in the 21-25 age bracket!

I agree with you. IMO, he is the only politician, in government or opposition, making any real impact. I would support, even canvass for, a government to be be led by him. However, my preference would be a government of national unity as we need a united front to face down the various vested interests.
That is not to say that I support the various shenanigans of FF through the years. IMO, CJH let his country down and Bertie let the rot continue. Brian Lenihans (Senior) role in this was, at best, one of acquisence. However, none of that matters now. We have to move on and try and get the best government to get the country out of the mess we're in. I see no one on the opposition benches who have demonstrated the necessary leadership skills. There are bright people in opposition - hence, my preference for a government of national unity.

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'll grant you that there is a profound hypocrisy among those who shop in the north, but expect - nay, demand - the much higher wages and social welfare benefits of the south.

Exactly.

Rebelheart wrote: »

I do agree that genuine patriotism has a place in the current crisis. I do not accept - not in a million years - that any member of the Lenihan family in Irish politics is in a position to lecture us about being patriotic considering that they have been a central supporting family of the Haughey and Ahern regimes which have shown an abject disregard for genuine patriotism and honour in public life.

It's not fair to lump all family members together, regardless of politics. We do not get to choose our family. (We do, however, get to choose our friends, see below.)

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I find this 'unpatriotic' tag given to people who shop up north so immature and petty.

If it helps you justify your actions......

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

Why oh why would i shop in the republic if i can drive an hour away and get things for 40% less. Why would i pay over inflated prices, to be patriotic. In my opinion it is unpatriotic to shop in the republic and pay rip off prices. People have to vote with their feet and the only way we can make this country less of a rip off is to send out the signal that we are not going to stand here and be ripped off but we will take our money else where.

I take it you support much more substantial pay cuts, social welfare cuts and tax increases. Maybe you are right!

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

Our government do not react to simple protest. The only way we can make them realise that they have out priced its citizens is to show them that we are willing to drive an hour up north to buy items for cheaper. That my friend is patriotic.

I am not your friend. I do not know you, or agree with your position.

whynotwhycanti

I never meant it in a literal sense, it is an expression, of course you are not my friend , how could you be when i don't even know you. Are you reading threads waiting for somebody to say ‘my friend’ . Okay back on track after that needless side tracking by you.

FYI, i never shop up north, and can not remember the last time i did, i just think it is a brilliant option where prices are not a rip off like in this country. Why are prices a rip off., because of inflation. Who is responsible for t at, this government. From your post it would imply you are against shopping up north but perhaps you are in a position to pay the extortionate prices of things in this country, but alot of people are not. As a previous poster pointed out, in the EU, French people drive across the border to Spain to do shopping as it is cheaper, and it goes on all across the EU. It is up to the government to curb that demand and this government has shown its incompetence again and again. And Lenihan, why is he held in such high regard. He lies to our faces again and again everytime he says our own economic crisis was caused by the global economic crisis. That is a lie. The fact is we would have had our own economic crisis regardless, the global situation just sped it up and compounded our problem. You may like being lied to but i certainly don't.