The photography year book

dnme

Just got my copy.....

Would I piss off an awful lot of people if I aired a criticism or two?

(serious question, I dont want to upset anyone particularly in light of the good cause etc)

pullandbang

Air away. We're all adults here, just don't F~~~king mention MY PHOTO!!!:D

Kintarō Hattori

Go on, it would be far worse to say nothing at all for fear of offending people.








But really don't criticise pullandbangs photo, he's a man on the edge!

pullandbang

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

But really don't criticise pullandbangs photo, he's a man on the edge!

and he has a big gun

sineadw

I think you scared him off...

kensutz

Dare you! Call us out!

dnme

Ok here goes,

For the money, it could do with being twice the size, it's a little on the mean side. God knows this forum produces enough material. If its down to cost then its worth exploring ways of overcoming that.

There are no less than three (if i recall correctly) pictures of the diving board at Salthill featured..

It would be lovely to see a theme, say for example, Ireland month by month (perhaps just one shot per month or whatever). Some kinda theme not necessarily taking over the entire book but certainly as part of it.

I think the book might be a little self indulgant in that it is might be targeted at us lot, rather than being presented to the general public as a pictorial record.

There are one or two photos in there with no caption which is awful.

Personal ads for photographers websites distract and cheapen it a bit imo.

Apart from that, I'm delighted to have it and to be associated with this forum. My absolute favourite photo is of the two girls by Brian Boyle (NORTH1). It is so warm and beautiful, reminds me of my childhood on those long summer days. Just glorious.

kensutz

Some of your points are pretty valid and afaik some people have aired the same views as you.

Kintarō Hattori

pullandbang wrote: »

and he has a big gun

Well I didn't want to mention that part.

challengemaster

dnme wrote: »

Ok here goes,

For the money, it could do with being twice the size, it's a little on the mean side. God knows this forum produces enough material. If its down to cost then its worth exploring ways of overcoming that.

I'm sure if you can manage to produce the same quality photo book for cheaper, then the people in charge of producing the book each year would like to know. Otherwise, I'm fairly sure they looked into getting the best they could.

There are no less than three (if i recall correctly) pictures of the diving board at Salthill featured..

So.. even though they're different photos, at different times, by different photographers, because they've got the same subject....they shouldn't be allowed in the book? There are only so many places in Ireland, and the amount people actually have access to is even more limited. Why shouldn't they be allowed to enter a photo they particularly like or feel is good into the photobook just because someone else took a photo of it too?

Also, how would you suggest to fairly eliminate duplicates? Say, for example, next year that three people enter photos of the same thing again. How would you choose which photo gets into the book and which 2 are told sorry, but you've to use another photo, someone else already entered one of that subject. How would you explain to those people that even though their photo may be completely different to the one already submitted, that because its the same subject that they have to pick a different photo to enter.

It would be lovely to see a theme, say for example, Ireland month by month (perhaps just one shot per month or whatever). Some kinda theme not necessarily taking over the entire book but certainly as part of it.

The whole point of having no theme is so that the whole of the photography forum can take part in the book each year. Not every photographer on the forum photograph the same subjects or type of subjects... Take your example, Ireland month by month... That's well and handy for anyone who likes landscape, but for those who don't touch landscape photography, they've got nothing to enter into the book.

Also, I believe that the photography book represents what this forum is like - a complete mixture of any kind of photographers, with a complete mix of any kind of photos. You never really know what kind of photos you'll see on here in any given day, and the book reflects that.

I think the book might be a little self indulgant in that it is might be targeted at us lot, rather than being presented to the general public as a pictorial record.

Possibly because "us lot" are the most likely buyers for the book? And don't you think targeting the book at the most likely buyers is a smart idea when proceeds are going to charity?

There are one or two photos in there with no caption which is awful.

Dreadful. Absolutely shocking. How dare someone not put a caption on a photo. Who dare think a photo could stand by itself without a caption. Get the torches and pitchforks!

randylonghorn

Hmmmm ...

Well, as a lurker around here, and one whose photography skills go no further than point-and-shoot ...

I like the photography book, I have both this year's and last year's.

I appreciate the hard work that goes into it.

I like that the profits go to an "in-house" cause, as it were, and one which I like to support.

That said, I'm sure there's always room for constructive criticism!

And volunteers for next year ... ?

sineadw

I think the points are totally valid - especially the one on pricing. It's an expensive item. Do I remember it being a lot cheaper last year or is it just me? The guts of €50 is a big fork out for a personal item at Christmas.

There HAS to be some way to get it printed cheaper for next year! I know we looked into it Challengemaster, but I'm seeing books by small organisations a lot less pricey.

RIGHT! - I'm hereby making it my mission to find us a better alternative for the next one.

As for a theme - noooooooooooo!!!!!! I HATE working to a theme. HWCH gave us a really broad one this year - reaction - and the stuff I was forced to submit was below par because of it, and I didn't enjoy the experience as much. It's been pointed out to me by a few people about the duplicates. Ok so its an us book, but that doesn't mean we can't take a wider audience into account does it? If we started the selection process earlier next year, or did it a bit quicker (it'll be our third - the regulars at least should have an idea of what's needed so it should move smoothly) then we can address this if it happens again? A lottery maybe as to who needs to change the image? If they're even that similar...

I can see the point about captions too. Consistency in design and layout is very important from an aesthetic point of view. Its not a pedantic point - the page is as much an image as the photo it's framing so stuff like this NEEDS to be addressed if the book's gonna look it's best. Even if you don't think so Challengemaster :P

On that note though - I'm seeing nothing even here on boards pushing the book? PR seems a bit off this year? I think the pricing will be inhibitive too.. what numbers are we at?

bernard0368

I liked the book, I thought the images were better than last year. I am suprised about the lack of excitment compared to last year. Even in this forum the book didn't seem to take off like last year.

Could it be better of course it could but then everything could be better.

Maybe next year start earlier in trying to organise the book, look at alternative printers and see what is out there.
If we wanted the book to appeal to a wider market I then think a selection process would be needed (which would be a shame).
This could be done by selecting/proposing images that were posted on the forum through out the year.
I also did not like the web addresses, they seemed to distract from the image/book especially as the proceeds are going to charity. Next year it may be possible to facilitate these on a thumbs page at the back of the book.

I will say overall a great job, and a huge thanks to those who gave up their time and effort getting the book finished.

duffarama

sineadw wrote: »

I think the points are totally valid - especially the one on pricing. It's an expensive item. Do I remember it being a lot cheaper last year or is it just me? The guts of €50 is a big fork out for a personal item at Christmas.

I'm pretty sure it was €20 something last year

DaireQuinlan

I think it should be shorter, and curated. As many submissions as possible should be sought, and then ruthlessly culled by about two thirds. Of course I have no idea who would actually have the unenviable job of actually doing this ...

It's down to intent I guess. If we want a happy all inclusive year book representing everyone on the forum who wants to get involved then the way it's going isn't too bad. If we want a quality photobook then a whole pile of editing has to be done. I agree with dnme on the duplicates for example. Simply pick the best ! (for some definition of the word 'best', see above).

CabanSail

The whole philosophy of the Book has been a representation of what we are doing on here & not a collection of the best photo's. The quality of the images is up to the individual & represents themselves at whatever stage they are at that time.

Any selection process is always subjective and is bound to annoy many. The selector/s would have to be independent & there would follow a debate on what got in & what missed out. The taste of the selector/s would become apparent. just look at the debate on the recent "IPF/LIPF" thread to see the issues that would arise. We would soon get into the area of should an image which has appeal but is slightly out of focus not be included while one which is technically perfect but has no soul be included.

Personally I like the concept of 1 page per participant & think it makes for an interesting collection. The issue as I see it is the price as outfits like Blurb will always be expensive. They make their money on the few titles that sell more than a handful of copies (like ours) as their main business would be one off books.

We went with Blurb last year as it was just a concept then, we did so again this year for convienience & due to time constraints. The Book was raised back in May but went dormant until very late again. If we want to do something cheaper next year we need to undertake some "digitus extractus" much earlier.

DaireQuinlan

CabanSail wrote: »

The whole philosophy of the Book has been a representation of what we are doing on here & not a collection of the best photo's. The quality of the images is up to the individual & represents themselves at whatever stage they are at that time.

Yeah that's a fair point

Any selection process is always subjective and is bound to annoy many. The selector/s would have to be independent & there would follow a debate on what got in & what missed out.

And I can just imagine the ensuing thread :eek::eek:

dakar

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

And I can just imagine the ensuing thread :eek::eek:

Probably best just to start that thread in feedback, save moving it!

Print-on-demand is always going to be more expensive, but the difficulty with a print run of however many copies is that the printers are going to want payment up front. This means us taking the risk that we can sell 500 or 300 or 1000 (whatever the number) copies. Organising the logistics of this would be a nightmare.

CabanSail

Maybe we should kick off the 2010 Book now by taking up Sinead on her offer to find out a suitable place to publish next time? This would then set a lot of the other issues in place, so it's a logical first step.

Covey

CabanSail wrote: »

Maybe we should kick off the 2010 Book now by taking up Sinead on her offer to find out a suitable place to publish next time? This would then set a lot of the other issues in place, so it's a logical first step.

Didn't a member of DCC publish a book recently. He'd be a good starting point.

NORTH1

dnme wrote: »

Ok here goes,

For the money, it could do with being twice the size, it's a little on the mean side. God knows this forum produces enough material. If its down to cost then its worth exploring ways of overcoming that.

There are no less than three (if i recall correctly) pictures of the diving board at Salthill featured..

It would be lovely to see a theme, say for example, Ireland month by month (perhaps just one shot per month or whatever). Some kinda theme not necessarily taking over the entire book but certainly as part of it.

I think the book might be a little self indulgant in that it is might be targeted at us lot, rather than being presented to the general public as a pictorial record.

There are one or two photos in there with no caption which is awful.

Personal ads for photographers websites distract and cheapen it a bit imo.

Apart from that, I'm delighted to have it and to be associated with this forum. My absolute favourite photo is of the two girls by Brian Boyle (NORTH1). It is so warm and beautiful, reminds me of my childhood on those long summer days. Just glorious.

Thanks for the compliment.

I think the randomness of the book is great, I love flicking throught it. None of the pictures in it get boring.

sineadw

Covey wrote: »

Didn't a member of DCC publish a book recently. He'd be a good starting point.

That's one person I was thinking of. There are a few books coming out of DCC and other clubs. And the IPF book. I know that's a bigger run, but how big?

I'll ask the OH too. He's a writer and has some experience with small print runs (albeit in France). I said I'd do this last year but things (namely college/kids/life) crept up on me. I'll try to get some info ASAP though...

One thing - not going with Blurb could well mean we have to change the format. How do people feel about that?

Covey

sineadw wrote: »

One thing - not going with Blurb could well mean we have to change the format. How do people feel about that?

Well I'd agree with the OP, the book is too small and certainly too expensive for what it is. If that means changing the format then so be it!

KarmaGarda

My opinion:

The book was the perfect length. Any longer and it's too much of an effort to go through it all (not for me, but I could tell it was just right when showing it to others). I also give a thumbs up for the randomness of it. Sometimes there were 3 or 4 photos that flowed nicely 1 after another, followed by random completely different photos. I liked that. Can't say I like every photo in the book, but something like that will always be very subjective. And for that reason I would be against culling any photos. A photo per user is perfect.

Also, the book being self indulgent, completely. But the point about the book being mainly aimed at us anyway means that this is kind of irrelevant. Although, on saying that, anyone I've shown the book to so far thought it was of superb quality.

@sineadw: No issue here with a format change.

Covey

On the other points, raised by the OP.

Quality - My belief is it should stay as is and be one photo per member regardless of who they are or what "level" of photography they are at. It's a celebration of all of the Boards Photography forum and imo is the better for that.

Photos - Numerous photos of the same spot or theme shouldn't be a problem and only highlight different approaches by different photographers.

Marketing - Yes I think marketing outside of the closed circle could be better. Getting the product right might be the first step in this.

Websites - I was one of those who did include a website under my photograph. I don't see a problem with this. As the photos are isolated examples of someones photography, it helps the reader go beyond the book and look at someones work. Many people have accessed my site and commented on it since.

Nisio

pullandbang wrote: »

and he has a big gun

does that count as assault?


I haven't got my hands on my copy yet, missed the launch party

One of the salt hill pictures is mine; I cringed a bit when I read there that there were three pictures of the diving board. I think if I'd known there was already a similar picture submitted (granted I haven't seen the three of them yet) I'd have put in something else.

Should there be some light editorial leaning to prevent the book having too many pictures of the same topic ?
(say swans!)

dnme

Many thanks to all for the replies. A good mix of opinion and again I hope no one is offended.

I think a user / customer centred approach to the finished item is what I was aluding to....perhaps.

With regard to the size of the book, is this book competing in the market place? I dont know if thats the intention or not. Do you want it to sell to a general audience or just be a keepsake for boardsies? the two are very different and you need to position it accordingly. If you'd like it to sell to a general audience, then you are competing with bigger cheaper publications etc.

The three photos of the diving board are screaming at me. When I came upon the third one, I remember saying ffs...I know this point has annoyed some and that a selection process is subjective...in iliminating duplicates, pick the best or the funniest or the saddest or the most atmospheric. Perhaps setup a poll on boards if choosing a set of images proves tricky. IMO, three shots of the same diving board was dissapointing because I am aware of the vast output from this forum annually and I know there are loads of great shots to choose from, also artistically and financially I had great expectations from the book when I sat down to view it first. Three of the same killed that for me.

Theme / No theme, I can't argue this any further and perhaps you are right, randomness can be wonderful. Ironically there was a bit if a theme developing around a certain diving board at Salthill

I think having a "1 image per person" selection process can be an unreasonable constraint. What if one person happens to take two beautiful or important images? I understand you dont want a hand full of contributors dominating the book so perhaps the rule could be enforced with room for flexibility in exceptional circumstances.

The issue of website address under photos really is poor from a design pov as well as being a distraction. Pages lack consistency (this point also applies to the images with no caption). Perhaps an appendix at the back with website addresses but not directly under photos (on the odd page). For me they take from the page and area distracting.

A photo in a printed publication should have a caption, even if that that caption reads "no caption".

AnCatDubh

I think I saw that book in easons (that was the one about two cities dublin/cork or something like that? - scratch this comment if I have the wrong one), and I hate to criticise on the public forum here, but in my humble opinion, of what I browsed through, the printing of that book left an awful lot to be desired. Apologies if the author does happen to read this comment. It is no comment or criticism on the project itself or even the images themselves. I just felt that the print let the whole thing down.

So, my basic point is to be aware of the quality implication if/when a move from blurb takes place. This years boards book used a higher quality of paper (more expensive) than last years and again in my humble opinion, I think it worked really well. While I really liked last years production I think you could see the difference in the print / paper quality this year.

/2c thrown to the wind.

CabanSail

Covey wrote: »

Didn't a member of DCC publish a book recently. He'd be a good starting point.

Yes - John hall published a book called "A tale of Two Cities" through Currach Press. It is €20 a copy but is Monochrome only.

sineadw wrote: »

That's one person I was thinking of. There are a few books coming out of DCC and other clubs. And the IPF book. I know that's a bigger run, but how big?

From what I hear each affilated club takes at least 50 copies, some more. That would make a print run of about 3000 (which was the magic figure I was told to publish a small run) It retails for €15 a copy, some colour but mainly mono. I hear the 2010 edition will have more colour though.

sineadw wrote: »

One thing - not going with Blurb could well mean we have to change the format. How do people feel about that?

We can try to match it in as closely as we can, but being different is not a major issue either.

Sleepy

If the duplicate thing happens again next year, why not just mention it to the people submitting images that there's already a photo of that subject included in case they'd like to change their submission?

KarmaGarda

Sleepy makes a good point. Also, if the people submitting the salthill diving board were made aware it was a duplicate would they still have submitted it?

Covey

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I think I saw that book in easons (that was the one about two cities dublin/cork or something like that? - scratch this comment if I have the wrong one), and I hate to criticise on the public forum here, but in my humble opinion, of what I browsed through, the printing of that book left an awful lot to be desired. Apologies if the author does happen to read this comment. It is no comment or criticism on the project itself or even the images themselves. I just felt that the print let the whole thing down.

So, my basic point is to be aware of the quality implication if/when a move from blurb takes place. This years boards book used a higher quality of paper (more expensive) than last years and again in my humble opinion, I think it worked really well. While I really liked last years production I think you could see the difference in the print / paper quality this year.

/2c thrown to the wind.

I haven't seen the book and take your word on that.

But that doesn't have to be the case for locally printed matter. There are some great printers out there who'd probably bite your hand off in this climate for a 200-300 copy run.

A lot of exhibitions produce very high quality books to accompany them (and I'm not talking about IMMA, thats different). Jackie Nikerson's current exhibition in the Gallery of Photography has one I'm told. Maybe an enquiry there might help ?

Nisio

KarmaGarda wrote: »

Sleepy makes a good point. Also, if the people submitting the salthill diving board were made aware it was a duplicate would they still have submitted it?

I should have put in a new post instead of editing the other one:

Nisio wrote:

I haven't got my hands on my copy yet, missed the launch party

One of the salt hill pictures is mine; I cringed a bit when I read there that there were three pictures of the diving board. I think if I'd known there was already a similar picture submitted (granted I haven't seen the three of them yet) I'd have put in something else.

Should there be some light editorial leaning to prevent the book having too many pictures of the same topic ?
(say swans!)

KarmaGarda

Nisio wrote: »

I should have put in a new post instead of editing the other one:

Ah, I missed the edit. Point proven so!

joeKel73

dnme wrote: »

There are no less than three (if i recall correctly) pictures of the diving board at Salthill featured..

One of those Salthill photos were mine. I thought it would look well in the suggested book design so submitted. We didn't share what photos everyone was entering before-hand because of "the surprise" element!

Sleepy wrote: »

If the duplicate thing happens again next year, why not just mention it to the people submitting images that there's already a photo of that subject included in case they'd like to change their submission?

Yeah that's just what I was going to say next. I don't think there's any problems with having duplicates of the same subject... in fact it can be interesting to see how different people approach it. But if I'd known there were another two already submitted I'd have opted to send in something else - just for the sake of variety in the book!

Dink

The IPF book is printed in Drogheda, I could find out more Sinead if you want me to? I know ppl who know ppl!!

Cosmo K

foto joe wrote: »

But if I'd known there were another two already submitted I'd have opted to send in something else - just for the sake of variety in the book!

+1!!!

Too late to make changes now, but something that we should try to avoid next year.

ThOnda

I am sorry for typing in general, but few things has to be reminded.

The book is voluntary and collective effort of people here. Every single member can answer themselves few following questions:

You want the book printed bigger and cheaper? What have you done for that? Have you found any companies that would offer print of such small amount of book for better prices? Have you shared the information about the book among other members and have you motivated them to take part in the project? What have you done regarding marketing of the book before and after it has been printed?

If you want any changes, feel free to offer such changes, but not by complaining, but by specific offers. We have begun first thoughts about the book at latest in June. And there was enough information to get you involved. Where were you? There were few volunteers involved in the creation of the book - what was your input to the process?

Personally, I do understand moaning after here as your personal promise to DO something about the issues raised by you for the next book. And it might be interesting to dig out this thread next year to find out how much are you really interested in the book.

Well, and now back to something reasonable. I strongly believe that it is common agreement of the project - one member = one picture (page). And there is no censorship on the everybody's picture and text. We have here quite a few excellent photographers who have completely non-commercial pages that are worth visiting. And discussions about captions are older than photography itself. It is just a picture, nothing more, nothing less. But it is your picture, you have the right to select it on your own and you are paying for the book mainly because it contains that picture.

dnme

ThOnda wrote: »

I am sorry for typing in general, but few things has to be reminded.

The book is voluntary and collective effort of people here. Every single member can answer themselves few following questions:

You want the book printed bigger and cheaper? What have you done for that? Have you found any companies that would offer print of such small amount of book for better prices? Have you shared the information about the book among other members and have you motivated them to take part in the project? What have you done regarding marketing of the book before and after it has been printed?

If you want any changes, feel free to offer such changes, but not by complaining, but by specific offers. We have begun first thoughts about the book at latest in June. And there was enough information to get you involved. Where were you? There were few volunteers involved in the creation of the book - what was your input to the process?

Personally, I do understand moaning after here as your personal promise to DO something about the issues raised by you for the next book. And it might be interesting to dig out this thread next year to find out how much are you really interested in the book.

Well, and now back to something reasonable. I strongly believe that it is common agreement of the project - one member = one picture (page). And there is no censorship on the everybody's picture and text. We have here quite a few excellent photographers who have completely non-commercial pages that are worth visiting. And discussions about captions are older than photography itself. It is just a picture, nothing more, nothing less. But it is your picture, you have the right to select it on your own and you are paying for the book mainly because it contains that picture.

I sincerely regret that you consider my input as moaning. I do not wish to attack the book at all, I am complaining as I feel it can be improved and for no other reason other than that.

As for wher was I? I am pretty new here and have been a participant in this forum for about the past 2 months. In that time I have gotten to know some of you and have even been out on shoots with some of you in Galway. I did want to go to the launch of the book and even posted in the thread looking for others to join me but got no takers. So I am very new here but an active participant.

With regard to layout. I am viewing the product from the end users point of view and I imagine the user not necessarily as a photographer. Academically and from the designers perspective, consistency is a must. Not alone that, but when I see a photo without a caption, I feel cheated somewhat, where was it? what was it about? whats going on? And what about my earlier suggestion to put all personal ad's in an appendix at the back?

When you say "back to something reasonable", I do not feel that my post was unreasonable in any way. I opened the thread carefully asking if it qould be appropriate to critique the book and then proceeded in as honest a way as I could. I am aware of the efforts that went into the book but it was €50. That positions the book right at the top end of the market, and that's where my expectations were when I opened it. I was dissapointed, that's all and I feel it's best to be honest with a view to improving things.

Finally, I had no picture in the book, that's not why I bough t it. I bought it to support it and to have it as a keep sake.

ThOnda

dnme - I have not mentioned your nick name here, because my post was general.

"back to something reasonable" was remark to my typing, from general topic back to something a little more specific.

If you have found anything offending you, I am sorry, it was not meant that way, but the amount of complains about the book in this thread is a little too much, especially when everybody could get involved.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Nisio wrote: »

Should there be some light editorial leaning to prevent the book having too many pictures of the same topic ?
(say swans!)

Ouch...

:pac:

dnme

ThOnda wrote: »

dnme - I have not mentioned your nick name here, because my post was general.

"back to something reasonable" was remark to my typing, from general topic back to something a little more specific.

If you have found anything offending you, I am sorry, it was not meant that way, but the amount of complains about the book in this thread is a little too much, especially when everybody could get involved.

ThOnda

No harm done, thanks for the clarification.

Morrisseeee

Its catch 22 isn't it, all the work is done voluntarily, so you can't really criticise those volunteers !! and the designer (whoever fronts up [& fair play to them]) has his/her say, or otherwise nothing would get done, ie. you can't please everybody !!
Maybe for next year, if the 'design' is nailed down EARLY, then we can concentrate on the submissions.
With that in mind, lets 'design' next years book...........RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW !!! Ya, bring it on (ie. since its fresh in our minds and we're all talking/discussing/arguing about it) :eek:
/my personal gripe was with the layout of the portrait shots, I don't like the way they are hidden away in the corners, but.............its only a teensy weensy gripe

sineadw

Dink wrote: »

The IPF book is printed in Drogheda, I could find out more Sinead if you want me to? I know ppl who know ppl!!

So does that mean I know people who know people who know people? Yeah, ask away:D Please!

Not a complaint, but I think if we can get an option for the book (softback) under €25 next year it'll sell a lot better.