Islamic school to be founded in Dublin

fitz0

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1209/1224260355637.html

Saudis to establish school in Dublin

THE GOVERNMENT of Saudi Arabia is planning to establish a school with an Islamic ethos in Dublin.

The plans have been announced in Arabic on the website of the Saudi embassy in Dublin which opened in September.

According to the notice, the decision to set up a school was taken at a meeting in Dublin late last month. The meeting was attended by members of the education committee of the Saudi Shura Council, an unelected body whose members advise the Kingdom’s government, and Saudi Arabia’s ambassador to Ireland, Abdulaziz Aldriss.

“It was decided in the meeting to establish a Saudi school to teach the children of Saudi citizens and students residing in Ireland,” the website says.

The Saudi embassy insists the plans are at a very early stage, and a spokesperson yesterday declined to give further details. In a statement, the Department of Education said the Saudi government had not been in contact with the department regarding the matter.

Speculation has mounted within Ireland’s 40,000-strong Muslim community over how big the school might be, and whether it will cater for non-Saudi Muslims.

According to the embassy, less than 15 Saudi families live and work in Ireland, and more than 400 Saudi nationals study here, though the latter number is expected to rise in coming years following the Saudi ministry for education’s recognition of more Irish third-level institutions.

Ali Selim, a theologian based at the Islamic Cultural Centre in Clonskeagh, Dublin, welcomed the plans. Asked about speculation within the Muslim community that the school may incorporate secondary education, he said that if this proved correct it would “achieve a long cherished Muslim ambition” in Ireland.

The State already has a number of Muslim primary schools.

“I highly recommend them to establish such a progressive step on the basis of a thorough understanding of the Irish context and the profound experience gained by Muslims living in Ireland,” Mr Selim said.

The plans were also welcomed by the parents of Shekinah Egan, the teenage girl whose request to wear the hijab at her school in Gorey, Co Wexford, last year prompted the principal to call for official guidelines to be issued on the wearing of the hijab in State schools.

Ms Egan’s father, Liam, who lived with his family for several years in Saudi Arabia, praised what he described as the Kingdom’s “strong commitment” to education both domestically and overseas.“An Islamic secondary school is vital and should be a priority for the community,” he said.

Saudi government-funded schools in cities including London and Bonn, and in Virginia state in the US, have drawn controversy in recent years following complaints that textbooks and other curricular material sourced from the Saudi education ministry and used in the schools contained language intolerant of other religions as well as passages that could be construed as advocating violence.

The Islamic Saudi Academy in Virginia, which is funded by the Saudi embassy in nearby Washington DC, was forced to revise its curriculum last year after the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, a government agency, raised concerns about material it considered inflammatory.

I'm not sure about the rest of you but I don't particularly like the fact that a foreign government has plans (that will probably be allowed) to establish a school in our country. Especially a country so heavily influenced by a religion that is so hostile to our way of life. It seems to me to be a sly way of introducing the Islamic agenda into second and third generation immigrants who might be freeing themselves from the oppressive religion of their parents.

Also the bit about the secondary school is a bit worrying in that it would “achieve a long cherished Muslim ambition.” Is integration into Irish society something they don't want?

What do you all think of this?

Zillah

fitz0 wrote:

What do you all think of this?

cavedave

I'm not sure about the rest of you but I don't particularly like the fact that a foreign government has plans (that will probably be allowed) to establish a school in our country. Especially a country so heavily influenced by a religion that is so hostile to our way of life.

I disagree. I believe agents of the Vatican should be allowed run schools in this country.

recedite

So this is what the recession has come to. The Saudis have already sponsored wahabbi schools in other third world countries such as Afghanistan. The education there consists mainly of learning the Koran off by heart. I won't even mention martyrs.I presume they would allow girls to attend in this country, but they would be taught their proper place in society early on.

The way it works here is that the patron of a school pays for the school building, then the taxpayer pays all the teachers salaries from then on.
The patron gets to choose whatever they like to teach as long as they also cover the National Curriculum.

Compare that to the missionary schools we established abroad in the last two centuries. Everything was funded with donor money, sometimes the entire local economy was based on it.
The Saudis sure are getting a lot more bang:D for their buck!

Max Power1

Zillah wrote: »

my sentiments exactly

Dades

recedite wrote: »

The way it works here is that the patron of a school pays for the school building, then the taxpayer pays all the teachers salaries from then on.
The patron gets to choose whatever they like to teach as long as they also cover the National Curriculum.

If that's really the way it works, then frankly I also share Zillah's sentiments.

MagicMarker

This does not bode well with me.

Dont be at yourself

I completely understand it, though. I mean, if 99% of schools are of a heavily Catholic bent, it's only right to cater to other religions too.

It must be an awful experience for a kid to have to leave a class or not participate in school activities (Holy Communion, etc) just because they've been indoctrinated into a different faith than everybody else.

saol alainn

In my opinion, not good.

robindch

The Saudis have an excellent track record at building schools outside of Saudi Arabia and I'm surprised that it's taken this long for them to notice that they don't have one here in Ireland.

The islamic center in Clonskeagh, which was funded by the Al-Makhtoum Foundation (aka the Emir of Dubai), already has a primary "school" and to judge by the center's website, the aim of the "school" is to produce kids who can regurgitate the koran, much as an MP3 player can:

http://www.islamireland.ie/icci-departments/education

Given that this is what the guys in Dubai are doing, and bearing in mind that the Dubai crew are a liberal lot in comparison with the Saudis, I can only say that I have the most profound misgivings about this.

pH

Dades wrote: »

If that's really the way it works, then frankly I also share Zillah's sentiments.

Or maybe not even pay for all the cost of the building ... the state can chip in there too!

It's not Ireland, but the current system in the UK is absolutely scandalous, the "faith" chips in a measly 10% of the building costs, something which is not even enforced.

It's worth noting that the Vatican is "state-like" and Catholic schools surround us, is an Islamic school sponsored by Saudi much different? Also given the horrors inflicted on children by Catholic institutions and personnel, how much worse are we expecting Islam to be?

irishconvert

robindch wrote: »

The Saudis have an excellent track record at building schools outside of Saudi Arabia and I'm surprised that it's taken this long for them to notice that they don't have one here in Ireland.

The islamic center in Clonskeagh, which was funded by the Al-Makhtoum Foundation (aka the Emir of Dubai), already has a primary "school" and to judge by the center's website, the aim of the "school" is to produce kids who can regurgitate the koran, much as an MP3 player can:

http://www.islamireland.ie/icci-departments/education

Given that this is what the guys in Dubai are doing, and bearing in mind that the Dubai crew are a liberal lot in comparison with the Saudis, I can only say that I have the most profound misgivings about this.

The school in Clonskeagh is a Quranic school which takes place on Friday evenings and weekends. It is not a school for teaching the standard curriculum.

Morlar

Max Power1 wrote: »

my sentiments exactly

+1

Dades

pH wrote: »

It's worth noting that the Vatican is "state-like" and Catholic schools surround us, is an Islamic school sponsored by Saudi much different? Also given the horrors inflicted on children by Catholic institutions and personnel, how much worse are we expecting Islam to be?

This is true in principle, however lets not forget none of us here are avid fans of the RCC running our schools either!

And, truth be told, I'd have more 'faith' in kids outgrowing diluted catholic brainwashing, than Saudi kids' outgrowing their more intense, home-grown stuff.

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

The school in Clonskeagh is a Quranic school which takes place on Friday evenings and weekends. It is not a school for teaching the standard curriculum.

Thanks for the correction.

Do you believe that the proposed Saudi school will have similar classes for the kids that attend it?

Tim Robbins

Perhaps it might give the government the boot up the hole it needs to make education secular.

MagicMarker

How?

irishconvert

robindch wrote: »

Thanks for the correction.

Do you believe that the proposed Saudi school will have similar classes for the kids that attend it?

No idea to be honest, I only know as much as you.

I would hope that it will teach the national curriculum but will have additional Islamic education classes for Muslim kids.

Flamed Diving

Islamaphobes!

redarse

Dades wrote: »

This is true in principle, however lets not forget none of us here are avid fans of the RCC running our schools either!

And, truth be told, I'd have more 'faith' in kids outgrowing diluted catholic brainwashing, than Saudi kids' outgrowing their more intense, home-grown stuff.

I agree

ChocolateSauce

Under fair, libertarian circumstances, I'd say let them, provided that they teach all the same skills as in state-run schools (English, Irish, Maths, Nature Studies, etc..), and so long as it is not funded in any way shape or form by the state, but the fact that Arabia wouldn't let us establish an atheist school (or even a Shia Islam school) in their country would drive me to tell them no, not until you play fair.

Flamed Diving

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Islamaphobes!

I'm disappointed that:

a) No one took the bait of my ruse, and

b) No one pointed out my spelling error.

You've changed, A&A forum...

Zillah

irishconvert wrote: »

No idea to be honest, I only know as much as you.

I would hope that it will teach the national curriculum but will have additional Islamic education classes for Muslim kids.

Curious. I don't remember you posting before, but the second an Islam thread crops up you're in there like a shot.

Gentlemen, we are being watched.

Anyway so what's it like submitting entirely to an interdimensional despot? I think you should come worship a different God than Allah. Incidentally, you are now obliged to kill me.

irishconvert

Zillah wrote: »

Curious. I don't remember you posting before, but the second an Islam thread crops up you're in there like a shot.

Gentlemen, we are being watched.

Anyway so what's it like submitting entirely to an interdimensional despot? I think you should come worship a different God than Allah. Incidentally, you are now obliged to kill me.

Hmmm, the thread did appear on the front page of boards so I clicked and this where I ended up

If you will be kind enough to post your address I'll be straight over to take care of you

Irish_wolf

Zillah wrote: »

I think this sums up most peoples opinions on this.

Why come to our country and then segregate yourself from our society, culture and people. The best way for young people to integrate into a foreign country is through schools. Sure a lot of schools here are run by catholics but so what, I don't think I have ever been preached to or been forced to go take an "active" part in any kind of mass. Schools in Saudi arabia are run by muslims. I cant see the saudi government allowing anybody to build a catholic school there.

But then again would anyone want to? :cool:

irishconvert

Irish_wolf wrote: »

I think this sums up most peoples opinions on this.

Why come to our country and then segregate yourself from our society, culture and people. The best way for young people to integrate into a foreign country is through schools. Sure a lot of schools here are run by catholics but so what, I don't think I have ever been preached to or been forced to go take an "active" part in any kind of mass. Schools in Saudi arabia are run by muslims. I cant see the saudi government allowing anybody to build a catholic school there.

But then again would anyone want to? :cool:

If Saudi practised Islam as it should be then catholic schools would be allowed.

I think this school like this would be an alternative for some Muslim parents who would like their child to be educated in Islam as well as the standard school curriculim. In much the same way some Irish parents send their child to an Irish speaking school.

On the one hand, having a school abroad to cater for their people abroad seems like a nice idea. I think i read something in the article to indicate that it was for students studying over here etc, implying they don't want to stay and integrate.
On the other hand... well, I don't think I need to explain that. Integration, saudi, etc etc.

In fairness what we really need is a lot more secular schools for children; until that, I can't imagine it matters what denomination/religion the religious schools are. We have a ton of catholic, they might as well have their saudi version of a muslim one too, seems fair enough.

Except for the whole taxpayer bit, ofc...

Zillah

For the record, my gigantic fuck you image is directed at the concept of religious schools at all. I am no more in favour of Catholic schools than Islamic. Schools should be paid for by the state, with a uniform curriculum and an absolute ban on discriminatory admission policies. Put aside a segment of personal time or somesuch so Christians can flagellate themselves, Muslims can spin in circles trying to work out what direction Mecca is in, and the atheist kids can go smoke weed or read Dawkins or something.

If you want your child to be brought up with a particular religious culture then I'm afraid you're going to have to take an interest yourself rather than foisting it on to teachers who should be spending their time, shock horror, teaching.

Daftendirekt

Wait, so will this actually get taxpayer funding then?

Galvasean

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Perhaps it might give the government the boot up the hole it needs to make education secular.

MagicMarker wrote: »

How?

Simple, they don't care so long as the religion calling the shots is theirs. Mayby, once them dern doity Muslims starts muslin' in on their terf they might feel obliged to do something about it.

Ickle Magoo

If schools are allowed to refuse entry to pupils based on their lack of baptismal cert, then I can't see how there can be refusal when someone wants to build an alternative. Can you imagine? "You are not allowed to attend your local school? Now you want to build a school that will not refuse you entry based on your faith? Well, you can't do that either".

Yet another reason to have secular education.

therewillbe

Zillah wrote: »

I AM NO FRIEND OF THESE GUYS,WHAT IS IT THEY WANT?OH YE,WE ALL FACE EAST 5 TIMES A DAY AND GIVE UP OUR BACON SAMBOS! LOOK AT PARTS OF THE UK FFS.NO TO THIS "SCHOOL"

therewillbe

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Islamaphobes!

I SURE AM!

recedite

irishconvert wrote: »

I think this school like this would be an alternative for some Muslim parents who would like their child to be educated in Islam as well as the standard school curriculim. In much the same way some Irish parents send their child to an Irish speaking school.

Sounds lovely. But hang on, weren't most of the 9/11 plane hijackers from middle class Saudi homes and educated in this type of school. As opposed to uneducated Afghan or Iraqi peasant farmers.

Secondly, if there are only 15 saudi families, and their branch of Islam is a minority one, where are they going to recruit all the kids?
Its true that a lot of (mainly black, lets face it) immigrant kids were refused entry into their local catholic schools over the last number of years.That was a shameful episode. In another few years they will be looking around for schools for the next generation. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saudis had their eye on this demographic. Depending on how well they have integrated by then, they might be drawn to an alternative system which is not rooted in "white european" ideals. It does seem to happen in the USA, but then this is a whole new ball game here, so we will have to wait and see.

Flamed Diving

recedite wrote: »

Sounds lovely. But hang on, weren't most of the 9/11 plane hijackers from middle class Saudi homes and educated in this type of school. As opposed to uneducated Afghan or Iraqi peasant farmers.

Secondly, if there are only 15 saudi families, and their branch of Islam is a minority one, where are they going to recruit all the kids?
Its true that a lot of (mainly black, lets face it) immigrant kids were refused entry into their local catholic schools over the last number of years.That was a shameful episode. In another few years they will be looking around for schools for the next generation. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saudis had their eye on this demographic. Depending on how well they have integrated by then, they might be drawn to an alternative system which is not rooted in "white european" ideals. It does seem to happen in the USA, but then this is a whole new ball game here, so we will have to wait and see.

Get this man a beer!

Zillah

therewillbe wrote: »

I AM NO FRIEND OF THESE GUYS,WHAT IS IT THEY WANT?OH YE,WE ALL FACE EAST 5 TIMES A DAY AND GIVE UP OUR BACON SAMBOS! LOOK AT PARTS OF THE UK FFS.NO TO THIS "SCHOOL"

I'd rather you not associate me with your post by quoting me, thanks.

Rb

I'd be thrilled to see it burned to the ground before it even gets a chance to open its doors.

pH

Rb wrote: »

I'd be thrilled to see it burned to the ground before it even gets a chance to open its doors.

That's a harsh statement, and under current legislation, probably illegal also.

Flamed Diving

Unless the religion is one of fire ritual.

Rb

pH wrote: »

That's a harsh statement, and under current legislation, probably illegal also.

There's a plethora of currently illegal things that I'd delight in seeing done to that religion, its places of practise and its leaders.

pH

Rb wrote: »

There's a plethora of currently illegal things that I'd delight in seeing done to that religion, its places of practise and its leaders.

Your statement is a direct incitement to, and support of, the burning of a school, making the statement itself incitement to religious violence.

Dades

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Get this man a beer!

Get that man a black helicopter-proof bunker.

pH wrote: »

Your statement is a direct incitement to, and support of, the burning of a school, making the statement itself incitement to religious violence.

That wasn't an incitement - rather it was very clearly spelled out as an opinion. Nothing illegal about an opinion - be it over reactive in most people's view or not.

But fare thee be warned, people... don't take the above as license to mouth off about muslims at will.

Rev Hellfire

For a group who spend so much time mouthing off about the educational system not meeting their needs, you'd think you would be more receptive to a group who actually get off their arsé and sort it out for themselves.

robindch

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

For a group who spend so much time mouthing off about the educational system not meeting their needs, you'd think you would be more receptive to a group who actually get off their arsé and sort it out for themselves.

Huh?

The problem of most A+A regulars is with religious control of schools. Educate Together and other non-religious outfits get plenty of good coverage here and several forum members are actively working for ET.

Rb

Dades wrote: »

That wasn't an incitement - rather it was very clearly spelled out as an opinion. Nothing illegal about an opinion - be it over reactive in most people's view or not.

But fare thee be warned, people... don't take the above as license to mouth off about muslims at will.

Indeed, you'll note I didn't mention the followers, as like their Christian(or all other theist) counterparts they're just naive and misguided, however it's the teachings and the leaders, particularly the Saudi's, that I have an issue with.

Rev Hellfire

robindch wrote: »

The problem of most A+A regulars is with religious control of schools. Educate Together and other non-religious outfits get plenty of good coverage here and several forum members are actively working for ET.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but the issue is always presented as one of choice.
The good citizens of the A+A forum protest against the lack of available non-religious schools (, true some may wish for the complete removal of religion from all schools).

Now surely the fact that Islamic community can get sufficient organised to arrange a school which meets their needs should be seen in a positive light.
If they can arrange the construction of such a school then surely the A+A community can also seek to do the same (which they have to a degree through ET etc).


I'm curious if it was a nice religion like Buddhism opening the school would there be the same vitriol directed against it ?

Ickle Magoo

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

For a group who spend so much time mouthing off about the educational system not meeting their needs, you'd think you would be more receptive to a group who actually get off their arsé and sort it out for themselves.

I think there is an important distinction between acknowledging why another group has to get off their @rse due to current educational system failings and being in favour of the alternative they are proposing.

Rev Hellfire

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think there is an important distinction between acknowledging why another group has to get off their @rse due to current educational system failings and being in favour of the alternative they are proposing.

True, but they're not proposing that you avail of this particular offering, rather it shows that offerings tailored to a particular group are possible.

Exactly how does it effect you if you'll never use it ?

robindch

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but the issue is always presented as one of choice.

It's certainly presented as an issue of "choice" by Jakkass and other religious posters. However, I don't know of any irreligious posters who accept this silly line of argument.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Now surely the fact that Islamic community can get sufficient organised to arrange a school which meets their needs should be seen in a positive light. If they can arrange the construction of such a school then surely the A+A community can also seek to do the same (which they have to a degree through ET etc).

ET is blue in the face from applying for permission to open both primary (~80 schools country-wide) and secondary schools (none) all around the country, and most of these have met -- to put it bluntly -- with a fairly unhelpful wall of silence from Department of Education. One can certainly speculate as to why the DofE appears to have a marked bias in favor of religious control.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm curious if it was a nice religion like Buddhism opening the school would there be the same vitriol directed against it ?

Given that Buddhists are not known for opening schools under the control of clerics who encourage anti-social tendencies, I can't imagine that too many people here would be all that upset.

That and the fact that Buddhism is basically a religious form of atheism of course

Ickle Magoo

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

True, but they're not proposing that you avail of this particular offering, rather it shows that offerings tailored to a particular group are possible.

Exactly how does it effect you if you'll never use it ?

Me? Personally, I don't mind what kind of private faith schools are set up. Given the current system I can completely understand why parents of another denomination would want to set up schools of their own faith. However, I'm no fan of segregated education systems.

Mark Hamill

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

True, but they're not proposing that you avail of this particular offering, rather it shows that offerings tailored to a particular group are possible.

Exactly how does it effect you if you'll never use it ?

Because it will be state funded. No state funded school should be allowed to discriminate based on religion. All schools should equally cater for all denominations, with a time allocated after normal schooling hours for religious studies for those who wanted it.