Islamic school to be founded in Dublin

Rev Hellfire

dvpower wrote: »

I'd like to see Sunday schools springing up where religions can indoctrinate to their hearts content. If religious parents want to send their kids to Sunday schools then they should be able to do this.

The problem with that system is that there is no oversight on what is taught. It certainly doesn't hurt religion or make for a more inclusive society, look to the states for example it remains a highly religious society where religion plays a huge role in influencing policy etc.

There's nothing the fundamentalist religions would like more than to have a monopoly on the teaching of faith, which is exactly what the removal of religion from schools grants them.

recedite

The best way to give kids a balanced outlook is to allow them to mix and mingle with kids of other faiths, and none.
When the state pays the salaries of teachers who are giving religious instruction rather than religious education, that amounts to state support to the particular religion. It results in a religious monopoly in the school.
Up until very recently we had a cosy relationship between the main churches and state whereby any denominations that were large enough to organise a school building got state support. Anyone else with schoolgoing kids had to toe the line and ask for a spare place in one of those schools.
I'd agree that religious instruction should be kept out of school altogether.
If the parents are confident that their own religion is a good one and they "live it" at home, and they worship once a week, why should they be worried about the kids mixing?

Nodin

Whatever about no religous education in schools, they should be educated together for all other subjects. I don't see why each can't go off for an hour a week (or whatever its supposed to be) to a seperate classroom for whatever their particular faith is.....

Dades

I don't see why their parents can't teach them about it if it's so important. Or bring them to Sunday school or even mass more than once a year.

grumble grumble

recedite

We still haven't found out what they are doing in that other educational establishment at Clonskeagh;The European Council For Fatwa and Research.
I suspect they don't research anything. It's just that the alternative name of Foundation For The Spread Of Islam In Europe And Enforcement Of Sharia Laws might raise a few eyebrows.
Either that, or they are looking into novel ways of assasinating Salmon Rushdie. Apparently lacing his underpants with arsenic didn't work; he washes them too frequently :pac:
Or maybe they conduct research into

must go now, will finish this post later....

2 strange black helicopters are landing on my lawn.. :eek:

irishconvert

recedite wrote: »

Two questions for Irishconvert;
1 Would you prefer to swop our existing laws for Sharia Law?
2 Can you tell us what they are researching at the European Council for Fatwa and Research?

I don't expect the full implementation of Sharia law in any European country, but I have already outlined the serious dangers to society that result when people come to believe they are above the law. As a logical extension to this, they may feel they are morally obliged to break the law.

1. No, I quite like things as they are. Although I would like the judges to dish out more severe punishments for crimes like murder, rape and drug dealing as I suspect most other Irish people agree with.
2. I have no idea, why don't you get out the phone book and give them a call?

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

1. No, I quite like things as they are.

Why not? If I thought that a particular type of law was given to us by a perfect and infallible being I know I'd want it implemented over one written by men.

irishconvert

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why not? If I thought that a particular type of law was given to us by a perfect and infallible being I know I'd want it implemented over one written by men.

A lot of so-called Sharia law practised in other societies is man's interpretation of God's laws infulenced by many other factors including the culture of the society. The poster who asked the question needs to be a little more specific about what he means by Sharia Law.

crown of storms

irishconvert wrote: »

The school in Clonskeagh is a Quranic school which takes place on Friday evenings and weekends. It is not a school for teaching the standard curriculum.

last time i was teaching there i was teaching the national curriculum.
-it is a national school required by law to teach the state curriculum.

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

A lot of so-called Sharia law practised in other societies is man's interpretation of God's laws infulenced by many other factors including the culture of the society. The poster who asked the question needs to be a little more specific about what he means by Sharia Law.

Who's to say that their interpretation is wrong and yours is right? Is your interpretation not just as influenced by the culture of your society?

And when you apply that more generally, wouldn't it be better for all concerned if we did everything in our lives based on reason instead of taking any flawed human being's interpretation of what he thinks god wants us to do? As in if we can't find a logical reason to do something other than "god says so", should we do it?

robindch

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Who's to say that their interpretation is wrong and yours is right?

One of the earlier times I was in Saudi, I had dinner with a senior banking figure and we fell to talking about the differences between retail banking as practiced in Saudi and Iran and how these influenced all aspects of the industry. At the end of the meal, I asked him how come there were so many differences at so many levels, given that both countries comply with Sharia law, and should, therefore, have had fairly similar banking systems.

Without batting an eyelid, he explained that the Iranian interpretations of Sharia were "completely wrong".

A year or two later, and this time on the opposite side of the Persian/Arabian Gulf, a chap from a major bank in Tehran explained his take on the differences. And, of course, his view that the Saudi interpretation was "wrong".

irishconvert

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Who's to say that their interpretation is wrong and yours is right? Is your interpretation not just as influenced by the culture of your society?

And when you apply that more generally, wouldn't it be better for all concerned if we did everything in our lives based on reason instead of taking any flawed human being's interpretation of what he thinks god wants us to do? As in if we can't find a logical reason to do something other than "god says so", should we do it?[/QUOTE]

Do you not think that people's sense of logical reason is also infulenced by their society and as a result is vunerable to the same problem?

irishconvert

crown of storms wrote: »

last time i was teaching there i was teaching the national curriculum.
-it is a national school required by law to teach the state curriculum.

Ok, well if you teach there then I accept what you say.

Why do the kids go there on weekends then? Why does it not normal school hours?

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

And when you apply that more generally, wouldn't it be better for all concerned if we did everything in our lives based on reason instead of taking any flawed human being's interpretation of what he thinks god wants us to do? As in if we can't find a logical reason to do something other than "god says so", should we do it?

So, not going to answer the question then.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you not think that people's sense of logical reason is also infulenced by their society and as a result is vunerable to the same problem?

So how do you “fix” this problem. You have a document which is supposedly written / inspired by an all powerful all knowing being which, whilst being all powerful and all know, is apparently totally incapable of writing what is arguably the most important document in history in a manner that can be instantly understood by all who read it. So, given that it is so badly written how are you, or indeed anyone, to know you are correct?

MrP

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

So, not going to answer the question then.

So how do you “fix” this problem. You have a document which is supposedly written / inspired by an all powerful all knowing being which, whilst being all powerful and all know, is apparently totally incapable of writing what is arguably the most important document in history in a manner that can be instantly understood by all who read it. So, given that it is so badly written how are you, or indeed anyone, to know you are correct?

MrP

Ok the document you are referring to, I presume, is the Qur'an. Muslims are in not doubt that this is the word of God so there is no disagreement on what is contained in it, it is our primary rule book if you like. As a secondary source we follow the documented accounts of Prophet Muhammed's (PBUH) life and what he said and done (called hadiths). Some of these hadiths are considered reliable, while others are not so reliable and considered weak. The problem arises where a particular society base some of their intrepretations of Sharia law on weak hadiths. This accounts for the differences in Sharia Law from one country to another.

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you not think that people's sense of logical reason is also infulenced by their society and as a result is vunerable to the same problem?

Indeed it is but I am under no illusions that my flawed opinion of what the law should be is endorsed by the omnipotent creator of the universe and therefore 100% right no matter what anyone else says. At best religiously derived laws are only as good as human derived laws because they are subject to flawed human interpretation and at worst they are extremely dangerous because certain people treat their flawed interpretation of laws that can't necessarily be independent justified beyond saying "it's god's will" as if they are perfect truth

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok the document you are referring to, I presume, is the Qur'an. Muslims are in not doubt that this is the word of God so there is no disagreement on what is contained in it, it is our primary rule book if you like. As a secondary source we follow the documented accounts of Prophet Muhammed's (PBUH) life and what he said and done (called hadiths). Some of these hadiths are considered reliable, while others are not so reliable and considered weak. The problem arises where a particular society base some of their intrepretations of Sharia law on weak hadiths. This accounts for the differences in Sharia Law from one country to another.

But why follow any hadiths at all then? If its generally recognised that some are weak (it would have to be, seeing as there is such variations in the interpretations) then why are they even considered. Is the Qur'an by itself not good enough? Did god leave out some important issues that only anecdotes about Muhammed could answer? Would god not have been able to foresee the problems that arise from leaving the interpretations of punishments to anecdotal stories about Muhammed, as opposed to onl his infallible work?

MrPudding

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But why follow any hadiths at all then? If its generally recognised that some are weak (it would have to be, seeing as there is such variations in the interpretations) then why are they even considered. Is the Qur'an by itself not good enough? Did god leave out some important issues that only anecdotes about Muhammed could answer? Would god not have been able to foresee the problems that arise from leaving the interpretations of punishments to anecdotal stories about Muhammed, as opposed to onl his infallible work?

It would appear that, like the Christian god, the muslim god’s all powerfulness, all knowingness, perfectness and infallibility does not seem top stretch to documentation or manuals. Nor indeed to the amount of death this flaw would cause.

MrP

irishconvert

Well I believe that God is perfect, but man is far from perfect and that is where the problem lies.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Well I believe that God is perfect, but man is far from perfect and that is where the problem lies.

I presume to can see how ridiculous this looks from the outside? You believe in this perfect merciful god that created an imperfect creature and as a result of the imperfection in his creation your god have to punish the creature he created? PLease tell me, just how does that make any sense?

MrP

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

I presume to can see how ridiculous this looks from the outside? You believe in this perfect merciful god that created an imperfect creature and as a result of the imperfection in his creation your god have to punish the creature he created? PLease tell me, just how does that make any sense?

MrP

Do you really think there is any point in us having this discussion? I am not going to convince you of what I believe and you are not going to convince me of what you believe. Best to both not waste our time with an endless debate.

Turtwig

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you really think there is any point in us having this discussion? I am not going to convince you of what I believe and you are not going to convince me of what you believe. Best to both not waste our time with an endless debate.

Why the negative attitude? Surely you care about the souls of other human beings?

irishconvert

Malty_T wrote: »

Why the negative attitude? Surely you care about the souls of other human beings?

I read some of his previous posts

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you really think there is any point in us having this discussion? I am not going to convince you of what I believe and you are not going to convince me of what you believe. Best to both not waste our time with an endless debate.

I do actually. I was hoping you could explain how your perfect god could fcuk up so badly and still be perfect. If you can't that's ok, perfectly understandable. I appreciate that it cannot be explained and the preferred method to handle it is to gloss it over and ignore.

MrP

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

I do actually. I was hoping you could explain how your perfect god could fcuk up so badly and still be perfect. If you can't that's ok, perfectly understandable. I appreciate that it cannot be explained and the preferred method to handle it is to gloss it over and ignore.

MrP

Well I don't think God fcuked up so perhaps you can tell me where you think the fcuk up is.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Well I don't think God fcuked up so perhaps you can tell me where you think the fcuk up is.

If you have spent any time on this forum I am sure you will have seen this, it pops up from time to time.

So, god is perfect, all seeing, all powerful and all knowing. Now, not sure about your god, but the Christian god is also infinitely good and kind.

This kind of gives me a problem. So, depending on whichever of you is correct, your god or one of the other ones created man at some point in the past, what, maybe 10000 years ago? Now, at the time when he created man, in fact probably before it given that he is all knowing and all powerful, he knew that it was all going to go wrong. He knew that man would fall, he knew the horrors and atrocities that people would commit. He knew that because of the imperfect book he caused to be written that murderers with vests made of explosives and ball bearings would get onto buses full of innocent kids (just to clarify, I believe they are innocent, as do most decent people, but I do understand that the people that blow the children up do not believe this to be the case. Wow, you gotta love that book.) and blow themselves up. He knew all of this, and yet he did nothing.

So, how could you possibly call a being that supposedly knows everything and is all powerful, yet allows hundreds of thousands of innocent people to be killed, apparently in his name?

I know you believe it has nothing to do with your god, after all, he is only responsible for the good stuff, but you have to see the difficulty here. If you crate something with the full and complete knowledge that it is going to go wrong and there will be deaths, millions of them, then you are responsible for those deaths.

MrP

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

If you have spent any time on this forum I am sure you will have seen this, it pops up from time to time.

So, god is perfect, all seeing, all powerful and all knowing. Now, not sure about your god, but the Christian god is also infinitely good and kind.

Ok, my first problem is that you have ore or less admitted here that you don't know a whole lot about Islam. How can you critise something you have no or little knowledge of.

MrPudding wrote: »

This kind of gives me a problem. So, depending on whichever of you is correct, your god or one of the other ones created man at some point in the past, what, maybe 10000 years ago? Now, at the time when he created man, in fact probably before it given that he is all knowing and all powerful, he knew that it was all going to go wrong. He knew that man would fall, he knew the horrors and atrocities that people would commit. He knew that because of the imperfect book he caused to be written that murderers with vests made of explosives and ball bearings would get onto buses full of innocent kids (just to clarify, I believe they are innocent, as do most decent people, but I do understand that the people that blow the children up do not believe this to be the case. Wow, you gotta love that book.) and blow themselves up. He knew all of this, and yet he did nothing.

Ok, just to be very clear, the Qur'an does not allow suicide bombings. In fact it is very clear that it is a major sin to 1) commit suicide and 2) kill innocent people, especially children and women. The Qur'an is a perfect book, it is the word of God and has not been altered whatsoever since it was first revealed to Prophet Muhammed 1400 years ago.Many people try to twist the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an and take verses out of context to try to justify their own aims & actions.

Now if anyone takes it upon themselves to go and blow a load of innocent people up they are clearly going against the laws of God and and will have to answer to God for what they have done.

MrPudding wrote: »

So, how could you possibly call a being that supposedly knows everything and is all powerful, yet allows hundreds of thousands of innocent people to be killed, apparently in his name?

I know you believe it has nothing to do with your god, after all, he is only responsible for the good stuff, but you have to see the difficulty here. If you crate something with the full and complete knowledge that it is going to go wrong and there will be deaths, millions of them, then you are responsible for those deaths.

MrP

We believe that God put us on this earth, gave us a perfect rule book to follow (the Qur'an) and that this life is a test for us. We are all judged on how we live this life and how closely we follow those rules. Those who are successful will be rewarded in the next world.

What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the lawmakers of the land because some people choose to break the laws, even if the laws are perfect (lets assume they are). How can you blame the person who made the law because some choose to break them?

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, my first problem is that you have ore or less admitted here that you don't know a whole lot about Islam. How can you critise something you have no or little knowledge of.

I know enough about it. Perfect god, perfect book, imperfect man. Got it.

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, just to be very clear, the Qur'an does not allow suicide bombings.

Um, not according to the people that think it does allow them…

irishconvert wrote: »

In fact it is very clear that it is a major sin to 1) commit suicide and 2) kill innocent people, especially children and women. The Qur'an is a perfect book, it is the word of God and has not been altered whatsoever since it was first revealed to Prophet Muhammed 1400 years ago.Many people try to twist the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an and take verses out of context to try to justify their own aims & actions.

But they would argue that it is in fact you who are reading it wrong. I am sure if you listed all the reasons why they are wrong and they listed all the reasons why you were wrong the lists would be remarkably similar.

irishconvert wrote: »

Now if anyone takes it upon themselves to go and blow a load of innocent people up they are clearly going against the laws of God and and will have to answer to God for what they have done.

Obviously that is not what they believe. And obviously the book they, and indeed you, follow is ambiguous enough to allow these diametrically opposed views both to appear correct to the holders.

irishconvert wrote: »

We believe that God put us on this earth, gave us a perfect rule book to follow (the Qur'an) and that this life is a test for us. We are all judged on how we live this life and how closely we follow those rules. Those who are successful will be rewarded in the next world.

But the people that are blowing kids up believe that they are following the perfect word. Why does god allow these people to exist? So god creates man flawed, or at least allows him to become flawed, knowing that because of this he will sin, and then he punishes him for that sin? How does that make sense?

irishconvert wrote: »

What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the lawmakers of the land because some people choose to break the laws, even if the laws are perfect (lets assume they are). How can you blame the person who made the law because some choose to break them?

Rubbish. The law makers did not create man. Further, they did not create man already holding the knowledge that he would sin, do nothing about this and then punish him for sinning. God has told us what the sins are, similar to law makers making laws, but unlike the law makers, god also make the sinners. And he made them wit the full knowledge of what they would do.

I am sure your god would not appreciate being compared to mere human lawmakers, even in a very bad analogy.

MrP

Sam Vimes

MrPudding wrote: »

God has told us what the sins are, similar to law makers making laws, but unlike the law makers, god also make the sinners. And he made them wit the full knowledge of what they would do.

It's kind of like a murderer who says at his parole hearing that he's going to kill again as soon as he's released and is put back out on the streets within the hour. In that case the parole board bears the full responsibility for the killing as far as I'm concerned.

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

I know enough about it. Perfect god, perfect book, imperfect man. Got it.


Um, not according to the people that think it does allow them…

But they would argue that it is in fact you who are reading it wrong. I am sure if you listed all the reasons why they are wrong and they listed all the reasons why you were wrong the lists would be remarkably similar.

Obviously that is not what they believe. And obviously the book they, and indeed you, follow is ambiguous enough to allow these diametrically opposed views both to appear correct to the holders.



But the people that are blowing kids up believe that they are following the perfect word. Why does god allow these people to exist? So god creates man flawed, or at least allows him to become flawed, knowing that because of this he will sin, and then he punishes him for that sin? How does that make sense?

Rubbish. The law makers did not create man. Further, they did not create man already holding the knowledge that he would sin, do nothing about this and then punish him for sinning. God has told us what the sins are, similar to law makers making laws, but unlike the law makers, god also make the sinners. And he made them wit the full knowledge of what they would do.

I am sure your god would not appreciate being compared to mere human lawmakers, even in a very bad analogy.

MrP

Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this? I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it. Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?

Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?

irishconvert

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's kind of like a murderer who says at his parole hearing that he's going to kill again as soon as he's released and is put back out on the streets within the hour. In that case the parole board bears the full responsibility for the killing as far as I'm concerned.

If Islamic law was applied there would be no parole hearing, he would be never put back on the streets again, his first murder would be his last.;)

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

If Islamic law was applied there would be no parole hearing, he would be never put back on the streets again, his first murder would be his last.;)

And I thank the flying spaghetti monster every day that we don't have Islamic law here. But that does not change the fact that god puts people out on the streets with full knowledge of every atrocity they will ever commit. And you don't find that in any way a bad thing to do?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Well I believe that God is perfect, but man is far from perfect and that is where the problem lies.

If god is perfect then his perfection should account for the imperfection in the creatures he purposely created imperfect, ie: it shouldn't matter if we are imperfect (in our interpretations) as god is so perfect that his message would be impossible to misinterpret.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

The Qur'an is a perfect book, it is the word of God and has not been altered whatsoever since it was first revealed to Prophet Muhammed 1400 years ago.Many people try to twist the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an and take verses out of context to try to justify their own aims & actions.

If the Qur'an was a perfect book, then its verses would be impossible to twist and misinterpret, as they would be perfectly clear and understanable.

irishconvert wrote: »

Now if anyone takes it upon themselves to go and blow a load of innocent people up they are clearly going against the laws of God and and will have to answer to God for what they have done.

Why does god have to wait for them to do that to get them to answer for it? Seeing as he knows what they will do, couldn't he stop them from doing it and get them to answer for it before hurting innocent people?

irishconvert wrote: »

We believe that God put us on this earth, gave us a perfect rule book to follow (the Qur'an) and that this life is a test for us. We are all judged on how we live this life and how closely we follow those rules. Those who are successful will be rewarded in the next world.

And what about the ones who never see this rule book? The people in the past who never encountered the Qur'an because it didn't reach their shores, the people today who, through no fault of their own, have had their minds "poisoned" by anti-islamic media and cultures? It seems like all the people in Islamic countries get anfair boost in this test, almost like god had decided who he wanted to believe in him and pass his test before it even started.

irishconvert wrote: »

What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the lawmakers of the land because some people choose to break the laws, even if the laws are perfect (lets assume they are). How can you blame the person who made the law because some choose to break them?

Because that person is god, and god is omnipowerful, omnipresent and omniscient.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this?

No. You asked me what I thought the problem was and I told you. I am also interested in how you reconcile the problem I have stated. I expect you just ignore it, but I would still eb interested in your analysis.

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it.

I do think it is rubbish, but I think stupidity is a bit strong. I could not care less whether or not I convince you or any other believer.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?

I can accept that. I would prefer if people could find it within themselves to do good though… A bit like the loser that turns his life around after finding <INSERT CHOSEN DEITY HERE>, I would prefer if they realised they did all the work themselves.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?

Very hard question to answer. If god exists then I believe he is responsible for all the ills of the world. He would be the designer and the creator, designing and creating with the full knowledge of what would happen. He would be guilty.

irishconvert wrote: »

If Islamic law was applied there would be no parole hearing, he would be never put back on the streets again, his first murder would be his last.;)

That is nothing to be proud of.

MrP

MrPudding

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's kind of like a murderer who says at his parole hearing that he's going to kill again as soon as he's released and is put back out on the streets within the hour. In that case the parole board bears the full responsibility for the killing as far as I'm concerned.

Even then it is not quite the same. They did not know with the certainty that god did what would happen.

MrP

Panrich

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this? I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it. Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?

Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

Sam Vimes

MrPudding wrote: »

Even then it is not quite the same. They did not know with the certainty that god did what would happen.

MrP

Indeed. God know the time, place, victim, weapon used etc etc etc. Even if he did release the person he would still be able to stop him carrying out the acts

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this? I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it.

What is this muslim trait that when you see a thread about islam in the A&A forum that you must come and try to defend your belief? :rolleyes: Whya re you avoiding the questions being put to you? What are you afraid of?

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?

Because there are people who take this made up story about god and use it to justify flying planes into buildings, dropping bombs on cities and genocide. Because people should do good because it is good to do good, not because they are afraid of eternal punishment.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?

Who knows? People are stupid, scared, gullible and greedy enough to invent religion, so they will most likely be stupid, scared, gullible or greedy enough to invent some other pointless lies. But we do not say "dont cure cancer because there will still be other diseases".

irishconvert

Sam Vimes wrote: »

And I thank the flying spaghetti monster every day that we don't have Islamic law here. But that does not change the fact that god puts people out on the streets with full knowledge of every atrocity they will ever commit. And you don't find that in any way a bad thing to do?

He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.

If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.

By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.

dlofnep

Not bothered by it. How exactly is it going to affect the lives of those who don't attend? Unless of course we are paying for it.

Panrich

irishconvert wrote: »

He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.

He gives us a book!!!! That's the best your God can do for humanity. He needs to learn another trick or two

irishconvert wrote: »

If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.

We are slowly getting rid of one form of dogmatism. We don't need another to replace it with thanks.

irishconvert wrote: »

By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.

Not on this forum.

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.

God is eternal and timeless. He does not leave us to our own devices, he knows in advance every single thing that we will do. Every single bad thing that has ever happened, happened because god explicitly allowed it to happen.

and as has been mentioned, he left us a rule book that can be interpreted a thousand different ways, all of which appear consistent to the followers. You can say they're wrong but they can say you're wrong and neither of you can prove what god intended. Hardly perfect.

irishconvert wrote: »

If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.

Honestly, I'd rather the economy was completely destroyed than have Islamic law in this country. Christian influenced law is bad enough.

irishconvert wrote: »

By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.

The flying spaghetti monster is a response to the ridiculous religious argument "you can't prove god doesn't exist". We respond with "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist but that's not a reason to believe in him". What loses respectability is the fact that religious people keep trotting out the same old fallacy over and over again and instead of acknowledging that the flying spaghetti monster shows how ridiculous it is, they resort to ad hominem attacks and accuse us of disrespecting them.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What is this muslim trait that when you see a thread about islam in the A&A forum that you must come and try to defend your belief? :rolleyes: Whya re you avoiding the questions being put to you? What are you afraid of?

I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here? I was interested in the thread about the Saudi school, which was on the front page, so I came in to have a read and got dragged into it. Do you object to Muslims posting in here?[/QUOTE]

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Because there are people who take this made up story about god and use it to justify flying planes into buildings, dropping bombs on cities and genocide. Because people should do good because it is good to do good, not because they are afraid of eternal punishment.

Come on, you don't really think the 9/11 attacks were about religion do you?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who knows? People are stupid, scared, gullible and greedy enough to invent religion, so they will most likely be stupid, scared, gullible or greedy enough to invent some other pointless lies. But we do not say "dont cure cancer because there will still be other diseases".

If you don't know, why are you intent on pushing your idea on to people who are believers? Why not live and let live, you have your beliefs and we have ours, as long as we are not harming one another?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.

And how exactly does an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipowerful being leave us to our devices?

irishconvert wrote: »

If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.

Yeah, we would have the problems all the Islamic countries have, like the sexism and racism.

irishconvert wrote: »

By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.

He doesn't lose any respect from people who aren't looking for reasons to not respect him.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.

Yes, ok, we get that. But you need to do some joined up thinking here. I understand that he gave us the book and that it tells us how to live our life. Let’s leave aside the fact that it is a very poorly written book and assume it give us the way to live our lives. We still can’t get away form the fact that we are imperfect being that are prone to breaking the rules in this book. He created us this way when he knew what would happen. He could easily have created us perfectly so it would not be a problem.

Why does a perfect, all seeing, all knowing being of infinite goodness and kindness need people to spend a tiny span of time on earth to decide where they spend eternity? Does anyone know what percentage of eternity a typical human lifespan is? When you think about the suffering on this planet, must of which is suffered by people that have never even heard of your god, how does that seem right?

irishconvert wrote: »

If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.

Really? How so? So for crime I take in countries where there is a death penalty there are no capital crimes committed? I would guess then that in countries where you get your hand cut off for stealing there is no theft? What about countries where women get stoned to death for adultery? I guess everyone is faithful?

MrP

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

If you don't know, why are you intent on pushing your idea on to people who are believers? Why not live and let live, you have your beliefs and we have ours, as long as we are not harming one another?

Because with religion things don't have to be logically justified. It's enough to say that it's god's will and people can be made to do horrendous things. As the old saying goes: good people will tend to do good things and bad people will tend to do bad things but for good people to do bad things you need religion

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here? I was interested in the thread about the Saudi school, which was on the front page, so I came in to have a read and got dragged into it. Do you object to Muslims posting in here?

I was parodying your own deflecting rhetoric about atheists always wanting to convince theists that religion is rubbish, I thought the italics and the rolleyes was enough to convey that, my mistake.
EDIT: ALso why would i object to muslims posting in here when I post in the Islam forum too?

irishconvert wrote: »

Come on, you don't really think the 9/11 attacks were about religion do you?

The 9/11 attacks, the current suicide bombings in the middle east, even Bushes original invasion of Iraq all use religion as shield for their true motives (power). That alone is reason enough to denounce and remove the lie of religion. The costs of the lie massively outweigh the benefits.

irishconvert wrote: »

If you don't know, why are you intent on pushing your idea on to people who are believers?

I already explained. We dont say "dont bother to cure cancer, as some other disease will just get us anyway". We can only improve ourselves one step at a time, and while they may not always be big steps, it still important to improve oursleves, to romove the lies we tell ourselves and learn to deal with reality as it really is.

irishconvert wrote: »

Why not live and let live, you have your beliefs and we have ours, as long as we are not harming one another?

Because they always harm one another. Contrary beliefs will always eventually come to ahead, you have it whenever people talk about abortion, same sex marriage, stem cell research. Religious beliefs get in the way of other religious beliefs and one has to give. I'm of the opinion that the correct belief is theone that should stay, regardless of the consequences.
Besides your beliefs harm me.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

I think I answered all the questions I was asked.

Not really. I asked you to explain how you god could be perfect after the fcuk up he created. You asked what I thought the problem was. I told you and asked you how that worked.

irishconvert wrote: »

I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here?

Not too many. Glad you are here though.

irishconvert wrote: »

I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here? I was interested in the thread about the Saudi school, which was on the front page, so I came in to have a read and got dragged into it. Do you object to Muslims posting in here?

I can’t speak for everyone, but I certainly welcome your input.

MrP

Dades

MrPudding wrote: »

I can’t speak for everyone, but I certainly welcome your input.

+1

And don't feel under any obligation to defend your beliefs here, either. Though I'll admit it's tough not to take the bait.