Islamic school to be founded in Dublin

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.

Er, you mean like Dubai's implementation of Islamic law?

DaniAlKhal

I thought that Ireland was supposed to be a welcoming country? Perhaps people need to chill out about the whole thing. People should open their minds to other cultures, try to understand them and accept them. I mean most of the schools in Ireland disregard other cultures and religions. Maybe it would be a good thing to expose people to this culture. It might stop certain people being anti-islam...you can't stereotype every muslim and call them a terrorist...plus Islam is a branch off of Christianity...:D

MrPudding

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I mean most of the schools in Ireland disregard other cultures and religions.

Yeah. And we don't like that either.

MrP

DaniAlKhal

I'm sure the Saudi Goverment are going to integrate the Saudi ethos into the school at a degree that will be acceptable to Irish authorities. The school will be financed by the Saudi government...so I have no idea why people have a problem with it?? :rolleyes:

DaniAlKhal

irishconvert wrote: »

He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.

Eh...he didn't give a book...he inspired a book...and it's not the letter of the law...it's not to be followed word for word...? And God doesn't punish..!:eek:

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Eh...he didn't give a book...he inspired a book...and it's not the letter of the law...it's not to be followed word for word...? And God doesn't punish..!:eek:

How can you possibly know that a god inspired the book?
Once again, it sounds to me like you can dismiss certain bits as a misinterpretation of god's word, and accept certain bits which just happen to fit in with current social ethics.

DaniAlKhal

You couldn't possibly know...that's the mystery of it. God Is unknowable. and yes you're right the bible shouldn't be read in isolation..it should be read in light of the societal circumstances and changes in society as time progresses. It shouldn't remain frozen in time....I don't think it was meant to be.

MrPudding

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Eh...he didn't give a book...he inspired a book...and it's not the letter of the law...it's not to be followed word for word...? And God doesn't punish..!:eek:

Really? So who sends people to hell again?

MrP

Alex-Face

fitz0 wrote: »

I'm not sure about the rest of you but I don't particularly like the fact that a foreign government has plans (that will probably be allowed) to establish a school in our country. Especially a country so heavily influenced by a religion that is so hostile to our way of life. It seems to me to be a sly way of introducing the Islamic agenda into second and third generation immigrants who might be freeing themselves from the oppressive religion of their parents.

What do you all think of this?

Dude you are a total idiot. Most likley racist too. Anyway - thats just my view on you. See doesn't it irritate when someone makes a judgement on someone else based on speculation without any real knowledge of what there talking about?

Well in this case I'm right.

This is the least of Ireland's problems (if at all even a problem!).

I think considering the population of Muslims in Ireland - that its only fair that they are allowed a school and facilities that operate under their own cultural's specifics for education. I mean - they Muslims who live here pay taxes, they contribute to the counties well being, provide goods and services etc - so is it not fair that they see some returns in their interests from the Government?

Ah dude(OP) you make me so irritated. You intolerant f**king moron.

BTW this conversation seems to have derailed several pages ago

Really? So who sends people to hell again?

Nobody...Hell exists if you believe it does. So in that line of logic - whoever you believe 'sends people to hell' then that is what happens....

Personally - since you asked - I believe when I die - if there is any alternative to just ceasing to exist - its something good. Why because its purely logical that our brains would 'send us' somewhere pleasant. After all we are all self serving eating/repoduction machines. Everything else is just a by product of the process of the former statement.

XD

Anways yeah - OP is a total ass

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

You couldn't possibly know...that's the mystery of it. God Is unknowable.

But you know? You believe right. Are you admitting that you could be wrong?

If so, how did you come to the conclusion that it is more probable that your god exists than not?

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

and yes you're right the bible shouldn't be read in isolation..it should be read in light of the societal circumstances and changes in society as time progresses. It shouldn't remain frozen in time....I don't think it was meant to be.

So there's no point to the bible at all then in terms of defining morals? Is it just a general guide for you? If so, what exactly does the bible guide you with?

DaniAlKhal

The bible is a piece of literature...And as for heaven and hell...they are not physical places. God doesn't send anyone to hell. The hell you read about in the bible doesn't actually exist. It's perhaps a literary tool to describe a dimension that might be experienced by someone. :rolleyes:

DaniAlKhal

Knowing and believing are two completely different things. you can have faith in something you do not necessarily know. My faith is a personal decision and I don't think I should have to justify it to anyone. (But I will if I'm pushed) And in relation to the bible and morals: Yes the bible acts as a moral guide but as society changes so do some morals and so does the interpretation of the bible.

robindch

Alex-Face wrote: »

Ah dude(OP) you make me so irritated. You intolerant f**king moron.

Ah, who said irony was dead?

Must be a new forum record -- from first post to a ban in eleven minutes.

MrPudding

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

The bible is a piece of literature...And as for heaven and hell...they are not physical places. God doesn't send anyone to hell. The hell you read about in the bible doesn't actually exist. It's perhaps a literary tool to describe a dimension that might be experienced by someone. :rolleyes:

This is obviously your interpretation of this amazing book. Other people believe it is a real place, other people believe it is simply an absence of god. The question still stands, who decided who goes to, or who experiences, this thing called hell? And why?

MrP

DaniAlKhal

I think we just have to accept the fact that we willl never know. That's why God is God. Because he is unknowable. He is the only one who can reveal himself to us...we can's know anything about him that he has not revealed to us.

Sam Vimes

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I think we just have to accept the fact that we willl never know. That's why God is God. Because he is unknowable. He is the only one who can reveal himself to us...we can's know anything about him that he has not revealed to us.

So how do we tell the difference between god revealing himself to someone and them making stuff up and claiming god revealed it to them?

Turtwig

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I think we just have to accept the fact that we willl never know. That's why God is God. Because he is unknowable. He is the only one who can reveal himself to us...we can's know anything about him that he has not revealed to us.

Don't you think it's funny though that God always seems to reveal Himself to people the way they actually had imagined him before revelation? He always seems to reaffirm their preconceived notions, never contradicting them.

DaniAlKhal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

So how do we tell the difference between god revealing himself to someone and them making stuff up and claiming god revealed it to them?

That is the problem isn't it !

DaniAlKhal

Malty_T wrote: »

Don't you think it's funny though that God always seems to reveal Himself to people the way they actually had imagined him before revelation? He always seems to reaffirm their preconceived notions, never contradicting them.

When I say reveal I mean divine revalation...I hope I didn't confuse you The bible is pretty much accounts of this revalation. Like God doesn't have a face...I don't really understand what you mean by "they way they had imagined him before" sorry!

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Knowing and believing are two completely different things. you can have faith in something you do not necessarily know. My faith is a personal decision and I don't think I should have to justify it to anyone. (But I will if I'm pushed) And in relation to the bible and morals: Yes the bible acts as a moral guide but as society changes so do some morals and so does the interpretation of the bible.

As long as you accept that your 'faith' is personal and subjective, it is not a universal truth, it should have absolutely no bearing on state decisions, and you can understand why I have zero respect for your unfounded belief, then that's fine I guess

DaniAlKhal

liamw wrote: »

As long as you accept that your 'faith' is personal and subjective, it is not a universal truth, it should have absolutely no bearing on state decisions, and you can understand why I have zero respect for your unfounded belief, then that's fine I guess

Excuse you! That was a very unfair comment to make! People should have respect for other people's beliefs...I don't know what you mean by it having bearing on state decisions??

Sam Vimes

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Excuse you! That was a very unfair comment to make! People should have respect for other people's beliefs

If I told you that I believed Angelina Jolie was in love with me and that she's going to leave Brad any day to be with me would you respect that?

DaniAlKhal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

If I told you that I believed Angelina Jolie was in love with me and that she's going to leave Brad any day to be with me would you respect that?

Having a faith in God and a religious belief cannot on any level be compared to Angelina Jolie being in love with you. So refrain from using such sophomoric analogies please.

pts

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Excuse you! That was a very unfair comment to make! People should have respect for other people's beliefs...I don't know what you mean by it having bearing on state decisions??

Why should religious belief be elevated above other beliefs (political ideologies, music taste etc), and demand respect and shielding from ridicule/criticism?

Sam Vimes

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Having a faith in God and a religious belief cannot on any level be compared to Angelina Jolie being in love with you. So refrain from using such sophomoric analogies please.

Actually, as far as I'm concerned it can because each one has just as much basis in reality. But you said beliefs should be respected. Is it all beliefs or just beliefs that you personally think have merit and the rest don't have to be respected?

DaniAlKhal

pts wrote: »

Why should religious belief be elevated above other beliefs (political ideologies, music taste etc), and demand respect and shielding from ridicule/criticism?

All beliefs should be respected equally...?

Sam Vimes

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

All beliefs should be respected equally...?

Except my belief that Angelina Jolie loves me?

MrPudding

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Excuse you! That was a very unfair comment to make! People should have respect for other people's beliefs

No they should not. If you want to believe in an imaginary sky wizard that is absolutely fine by me. Whatever floats your boat. No one, however, is under any obligation whatsoever to respect your belief. And that is how it should be.

MrP

DaniAlKhal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Except my belief that Angelina Jolie loves me?

Well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe

Turtwig

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

People should have respect for other people ...

Fixed


I respect you too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs.:)

DaniAlKhal

Malty_T wrote: »

Fixed


I respect you too much to respect to your respect your ridiculous beliefs.:)

I'm confused...:rolleyes:

Turtwig

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I'm confused...:rolleyes:

Sam Vimes

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I'm confused...:rolleyes:

What it means is that people deserve respect but ideas don't. Ideas should never be protected from scrutiny through appeals to respect and if they can't stand up to scrutiny they should be thrown out

DaniAlKhal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What it means is that people deserve respect but ideas don't. Ideas should never be protected from scrutiny through appeals to respect and if they can't stand up to scrutiny they should be thrown out

Ahhh I get it now thanks

pts

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

All beliefs should be respected equally...?

What if I believe that you are a child rapist? Should that be respected? What happens if I tell everyone what I believe and some people believe me?

It is an extreme example, but what I'm getting at is that not all beliefs are created equal.

Turtwig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What it means is that people deserve respect but ideas don't. Ideas should never be protected from scrutiny through appeals to respect and if they can't stand up to scrutiny they should be thrown out

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Ahhh I get it now thanks

Well in fairness my blundering typing didn't help..

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

All beliefs should be respected equally...?

You're opening up a can of worms here.
I believe that the Flying Spagetti Monster created the universe and gave us our morals. How can you respect that?

DaniAlKhal

Malty_T wrote: »

Well in fairness my blundering typing didn't help..

That's ok! Sometimes you'd swear I was using my fists to type when you read my sentences lol

Turtwig

liamw wrote: »

You're opening up a can of worms here.
I believe that the Flying Spagetti Monster created the universe and gave us our morals. How can you respect that?

For the last time, morals exist independently of the FSM!:mad:

DaniAlKhal

Respect peoples beliefs in so far as you tolerate them...pretty reasonable don't you think? And belief in something and belief of something are different....a political/religious/cultural belief is different to an accusatory belief or a belief that someone did something..?

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

Yes, ok, we get that. But you need to do some joined up thinking here. I understand that he gave us the book and that it tells us how to live our life. Let’s leave aside the fact that it is a very poorly written book

Have you read the Qur'an in order to come to this conclusion?

MrPudding wrote: »

and assume it give us the way to live our lives. We still can’t get away form the fact that we are imperfect being that are prone to breaking the rules in this book. He created us this way when he knew what would happen. He could easily have created us perfectly so it would not be a problem.

Why does a perfect, all seeing, all knowing being of infinite goodness and kindness need people to spend a tiny span of time on earth to decide where they spend eternity? Does anyone know what percentage of eternity a typical human lifespan is? When you think about the suffering on this planet, must of which is suffered by people that have never even heard of your god, how does that seem right?

Simply we don't know, perhaps we are not capable of understanding this as our minds have limitations.

MrPudding wrote: »

Really? How so? So for crime I take in countries where there is a death penalty there are no capital crimes committed? I would guess then that in countries where you get your hand cut off for stealing there is no theft? What about countries where women get stoned to death for adultery? I guess everyone is faithful?

MrP

Take the Islamic (and Christian) law which forbids interest. If this was in place in Ireland we would all own our homes outright and greedy bankers would not be in a position where they can steal so much wealth from a country and get away scott free.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

Take the Islamic (and Christian) law which forbids interest. If this was in place in Ireland we would all own our homes outright and greedy bankers would not be in a position where they can steal so much wealth from a country and get away scott free.

If we enforced the law that forbade interest then there would be no motivation for the bank to lend me the money to buy my house so I'd be able to afford it at roughly age 70. Interest was not the problem, reckless lending was

CerebralCortex

irishconvert wrote: »

...Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

Really I wasn't an atheist when I first came in here (well I kind of was except I didn't know it) and the fine arguments posed here brought me to it.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Have you read the Qur'an in order to come to this conclusion?

Can you not see that I don’t need to? If a guide to how we should live our lives is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted in different ways by different people, then that book if flawed. Quite simple really. I understand that you believe that the book is perfect and the other people are interpreting it wrong, but they are also saying the book is perfect and you are interpreting it wrong. The views are so diametrically opposed that one of you must be wrong. If the book was perfect then, no matter how flawed the reader was it would not be possible to misinterpret it.

irishconvert wrote: »

Simply we don't know, perhaps we are not capable of understanding this as our minds have limitations.

Ah, standard believer excuse then. It makes no sense, so it is beyond our puny intellect. Perhaps he moves in mysterious ways?

irishconvert wrote: »

Take the Islamic (and Christian) law which forbids interest. If this was in place in Ireland we would all own our homes outright and greedy bankers would not be in a position where they can steal so much wealth from a country and get away scott free.

Yes, that worked really well in Dubai. I believe Dubai World had several Islamic bonds maturing yesterday, which they would have defaulted on had another country not bailed them out with a $10billion (presumable interest free) loan.

irishconvert wrote: »

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

I was not trying to change your mind, I was simply looking for an answer. I got the one I was expecting, “he move in mysterious ways…”

MrP

Sam Vimes

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Really I wasn't an atheist when I first came in here (well I kind of was except I didn't know it) and the fine arguments posed here brought me to it.

And in a way the point is not to get someone to announce that their mind has been changed, that's at best extremely rare. The best you can realistically hope for is that the person gets more and more desperate in their attempts to try to defend something that they are not equipped to defend because it has little or no rational basis and is littered with inconsistencies, and eventually either declares that they're not participating anymore because (insert excuse here) or starts to attack you personally because they can't defend their position, eg saying that you're being disrespectful. That may well be but it doesn't make me wrong.

And if you're really lucky one of the lurkers spots all of the above and isn't taken in by the ad hominems.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

So whats the point of this forum then? Or your forum? Or any for that matter? Is it only on the internet where you are so closed minded or do you think that debate in all walks of life are pointless? Whats your alternative then when people come together with contrary opinions? What should they do to avoid problems?

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Respect peoples beliefs in so far as you tolerate them...pretty reasonable don't you think? And belief in something and belief of something are different....a political/religious/cultural belief is different to an accusatory belief or a belief that someone did something..?

I don't care what your belief is. I won't respect it if it is ridiculous. I would clearly place your religious beliefs into that bucket, not only do they sound ridiculous, they are completely unfounded and have zero evidence to support them. Until you present an argument that shows why your beliefs are not ridiculous, then I will continue to not respect those beliefs of yours.

Mark Hamill

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Respect peoples beliefs in so far as you tolerate them...pretty reasonable don't you think?

Respect people and tolerate the fact that they have their own beliefs and that their beliefs may be different to yours. I dont see why you should go any further than that without knowing the beliefs.

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

And belief in something and belief of something are different....a political/religious/cultural belief is different to an accusatory belief or a belief that someone did something..?

Semantics really. A belief in something can be expressed as a belief of something. A belief of gods existence is the same as believing in god.

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

Can you not see that I don’t need to? If a guide to how we should live our lives is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted in different ways by different people, then that book if flawed.

I find it quite unbelieveable that you would dismiss a book as rubbish without reading it yourself.

MrPudding wrote: »

Quite simple really. I understand that you believe that the book is perfect and the other people are interpreting it wrong, but they are also saying the book is perfect and you are interpreting it wrong. The views are so diametrically opposed that one of you must be wrong. If the book was perfect then, no matter how flawed the reader was it would not be possible to misinterpret it.

I am not sure if you are blaming the Qur'an, the people who follow/interpret it, or both.

biko

Out of all the possible Islamic flavours the Saudi fundamentalists are the worst. Imo.
We're close to a secular society, why would we want other religions destroying our youth?