Islamic school to be founded in Dublin

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So whats the point of this forum then? Or your forum? Or any for that matter? Is it only on the internet where you are so closed minded or do you think that debate in all walks of life are pointless? Whats your alternative then when people come together with contrary opinions? What should they do to avoid problems?

As I said I think debates in interet forums are pointless as the two opposing sides of the debate never seem to conceed anything.

I think that people with contrary opinions should be able to accept the fact they have different beliefs and should respect one another (as long as their beliefs are not harmful to the other). To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

irishconvert

Magnus wrote: »

Out of all the possible Islamic flavours the Saudi are by far the worst.

I agree. The Saudi dictatorship (backed by the west BTW) are the most corrupt. Having spent some time there I can tell you the citizens feel the same way.

Magnus wrote: »

We're close to a secular society, why would we want other religions destroying our youth?

Hmmm

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

I find it quite unbelieveable that you would dismiss a book as rubbish without reading it yourself.

I find it unbelievable that you can’t understand that I don’t need to read it. I simply need to look people that have read it.

This is not hard to understand, I will try again… with bullet points!

• The Qur’an is a guide to how we should live our lives.
• It was inspired by a perfect being so that we would know how to live our lives, according to him.
• Unfortunately it was not written in a way that can be simply followed, it has to be interpreted.
• People interpret it in different ways, wildly different in fact. Some people think the book tells them it is OK to blow up kids and some think it isn’t.

I write technical manual and guides as part of my job. If I wrote a manual with an ambiguity of the scale of it is ok to murder kids / it is not ok to murder kids, I think I would probably get sacked.

In short, Qur’an = FAIL

irishconvert wrote: »

I am not sure if you are blaming the Qur'an, the people who follow/interpret it, or both.

I am blaming the book, you are blaming the followers, well at least the ones that don’t read it the way you do.

MrP

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

As I said I think debates in interet forums are pointless as the two opposing sides of the debate never seem to conceed anything.

Which doesn't at all answer my question of whats the point of any forum if you believe the debates are pointless? Why are you a mod if you think your forum is pointless?

irishconvert wrote: »

I think that people with contrary opinions should be able to accept the fact they have different beliefs and should respect one another (as long as their beliefs are not harmful to the other).

All contrary beliefs ultimately lead to some kind of harm. So what do we do about it if debate is pointless? Just try to be the one doing the harm as opposed to the one being harmed?

irishconvert wrote: »

To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

Funny, the way I see it, its usually a case of theists feeling stupid when an intelligent point is put to them by an atheist, so they then use the disrespect card in order to get out of dealing with the piont that makes them feel stupid.

Mark Hamill

MrPudding wrote: »

irishconvert wrote:

I am not sure if you are blaming the Qur'an, the people who follow/interpret it, or both.

I am blaming the book, you are blaming the followers, well at least the ones that don’t read it the way you do.
MrP

I'm blaming the guy who wrote it.

liamw

irishconvert wrote: »

To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

If it's such a stupid argument then you can easily refute it right?

Sam Vimes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Funny, the way I see it, its usually a case of theists feeling stupid when an intelligent point is put to them by an atheist, so they then use the disrespect card in order to get out of dealing with the piont that makes them feel stupid.

Indeed. If they had a response for it there'd be no need to feel stupid. Unfortunately the overwhelming response when a believer is made feel stupid is to blame the atheist* and accuse them of this and that (in this case lack of respect) instead of looking inwards and asking themselves if feel stupid because what they just said is in fact stupid


*In this case. This phenomenon doesn't just apply to religious belief

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Which doesn't at all answer my question of whats the point of any forum if you believe the debates are pointless? Why are you a mod if you think your forum is pointless?

I think debates are good in that it gives onlookers an insite into both sides of the argument and can help convince someone to go one way or the other. However I did not come on here to try to convert people to Islam, or to defend my beliefs. That's why I consider this debate pointless as I am not going to suddenly going to say "hey this Islam stuff is all rubbish, think I'll become an athiest". I dont' expect you, Mr P or any other athiests to have a sudden change of view either. So why waste our times build and knocking egos?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All contrary beliefs ultimately lead to some kind of harm. So what do we do about it if debate is pointless? Just try to be the one doing the harm as opposed to the one being harmed?

What harm is my belief causing you?
Do do you want to live in a world where everyone shares the same beliefs, no variety or variation?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Funny, the way I see it, its usually a case of theists feeling stupid when an intelligent point is put to them by an atheist, so they then use the disrespect card in order to get out of dealing with the piont that makes them feel stupid.

I don't accept your points, I lose respect for you when you can't put an intelligent argument forward and resort to "flying spagetti monster".

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't accept your points, I lose respect for you when you can't put an intelligent argument forward and resort to "flying spagetti monster".

Then please tell me what the difference is between "you can't prove god doesn't exist" and "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist".

you saying you've lost respect for me doesn't make the argument invalid. It's just an ad hominem attack

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishconvert

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Then please tell me what the difference is between "you can't prove god doesn't exist" and "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist".

you saying you've lost respect for me doesn't make the argument invalid. It's just an ad hominem attack

I am not referring to your argument, I am referring to the reference you use.

In any case what is the point of this? I can't prove God exists, you can't prove he doesn't. Hasn't this debate been done a million times?

irishconvert

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Try reading what I actually wrote. I said using the flying spagetti monster is an attempt to be insulting to believers.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You also can't offer any evidence God does not exist.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Where is your proof?

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

I am not referring to your argument, I am referring to the reference you use.

In any case what is the point of this? I can't prove God exists, you can't prove he doesn't. Hasn't this debate been done a million times?

Yes it has and it will continue to be had as long as believers keep pointing out that you can't prove god's non-existence as if that's a reason to believe in him. We will keep pointing out that you can't prove the non-existence of anything but that is not a reason to pick one of the infinite number of things that cannot be disproved and decide to believe in it. You should believe in something if there is at least a reasonable chance that it exists; the fact that your god is on the infinitely long list of things that can't be disproved is irrelevant

The flying spaghetti monster shows the ludicrousness of that position

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

Where is your proof?

Prove I can't fly.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I think debates are good in that it gives onlookers an insite into both sides of the argument and can help convince someone to go one way or the other. However I did not come on here to try to convert people to Islam, or to defend my beliefs. That's why I consider this debate pointless as I am not going to suddenly going to say "hey this Islam stuff is all rubbish, think I'll become an athiest". I dont' expect you, Mr P or any other athiests to have a sudden change of view either. So why waste our times build and knocking egos?

Because you will never know if you wont suddenly change your beliefs unless you challenge them by having debates such as this. It comes across as fearful that you think this debate should stop, fearful that we may actually make you question your beliefs.

irishconvert wrote: »

What harm is my belief causing you?

Your beliefs inform your actions and opinions. Your beliefs lead you to vote the way you do, shop in the places you do, talk to the people you do. These beliefs, as they are contrary to mine, will lead you to vote, shop, interact in ways (mostly indirectly) contrary to me and hurt me and my interests.
Also your (plural, muslim in general) beliefs prevent me from being able to marry my girlfriend, as a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim man.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do do you want to live in a world where everyone shares the same beliefs, no variety or variation?

If that belief is true, then sure why not? Better than believing in a load of lies, surely. Besides whats so good about variation, thats what leads to one country punishing adultery by lashes and another by death.
Wouldnt you want to live in a world where everyone was muslim?

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't accept your points, I lose respect for you when you can't put an intelligent argument forward and resort to "flying spagetti monster".

If the flying spagetti monster is not an intelligent argument then you should be able to counter it easily. The problem here, is not that you have lost respect because of this argument, the problem is you didn't have any respect in the first place.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I am not referring to your argument, I am referring to the reference you use.

In any case what is the point of this? I can't prove God exists, you can't prove he doesn't. Hasn't this debate been done a million times?

So do you then support the notion that Shia law has no place in actual law as the source is entirely undefinable, existence unprovable and interpration massively varying?
So do you then support the notion that teaching of the qur'an in schools should be stopped as the source is entirely undefinable, existence unprovable and interpration massively varying?

Tell me, I cant prove god doesn't exist, you cant priove he does, so why do you believe in god?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I said using the flying spagetti monster is an attempt to be insulting to believers.

No, believers choose to get insulted when they are shown the ludricousness of the position that "you cant prove god doesnt exist, egro god exists". They do this because the dont like the implications of the point and are trying to deflect the issue.

irishconvert wrote: »

You also can't offer any evidence God does not exist.

You cannot offer any evidence that I am not god.

irishconvert wrote: »

Where is your proof?

We dont need any proof, you are the one making the claim.

liamw

The FSM analogy is not used to insult you. It's used to show how ludricious your beliefs actually are, and it serves that purpose very well.

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

The FSM analogy is not used to insult you. It's used to show how ludricious your beliefs actually are, and it serves that purpose very well.

But of course when someone believes something for emotional reasons, any insult to the belief is taken to be an insult to the person. As I often say: those who can argue their case do so and those who can't get offended as if taking offence is a good substitute for good argumentation

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is an intelligent argument. I think the problem is that you don't understand why.

Rookster

I believe in "Flying Spaghetti Monsters". Please don't burst my bubble!

Sam Vimes

irishconvert, I sincerely hope that you will now surprise us all and unlike other believers, not blame us because you feel stupid and instead ask yourself why you feel stupid and realise that it's because the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" argument is stupid

Wacker

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Really I wasn't an atheist when I first came in here (well I kind of was except I didn't know it) and the fine arguments posed here brought me to it.

Similarly, I once started reading a massively long debate about abortion on the snopes.com message board. I was pro-life going in. I was pro-choice by the time I was done.

Nevyn

There are two muslim primary schools in the country, funded in the same way as all the rest of them, it's not news.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Your beliefs inform your actions and opinions. Your beliefs lead you to vote the way you do, shop in the places you do, talk to the people you do. These beliefs, as they are contrary to mine, will lead you to vote, shop, interact in ways (mostly indirectly) contrary to me and hurt me and my interests.
Also your (plural, muslim in general) beliefs prevent me from being able to marry my girlfriend, as a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim man.

Do you support the concept of democracy? You sound like a dictator who would feel more at home in a state run on the same model as the Saudi dictatorship except with your rules.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If that belief is true, then sure why not? Better than believing in a load of lies, surely. Besides whats so good about variation, thats what leads to one country punishing adultery by lashes and another by death.
Wouldnt you want to live in a world where everyone was muslim?

People have the right to believe in whatever they want even if you think it is all lies.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If the flying spagetti monster is not an intelligent argument then you should be able to counter it easily. The problem here, is not that you have lost respect because of this argument, the problem is you didn't have any respect in the first place.

I don't know how you come to this conclusion but it is not true. I respect people's right to have their own beliefs. I accept and recpect your decision to be an athiest, I don't attack you or your beliefs as they are not doing me any harm.

irishconvert

Sam Vimes wrote: »

irishconvert, I sincerely hope that you will now surprise us all and unlike other believers, not blame us because you feel stupid and instead ask yourself why you feel stupid and realise that it's because the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" argument is stupid

The only think I fel stupid about is that for a long time I didn't believe in God. But now my eyes are open I can see the evidence all around me. Look at how perfectly this world has been designed. Look at all the perfect creations in it. I find it impossible to believe this all just happened :-)

OK-Cancel-Apply

irishconvert wrote: »

The only think I fel stupid about is that for a long time I didn't believe in God. But now my eyes are open I can see the evidence all around me. Look at how perfectly this world has been designed. Look at all the perfect creations in it. I find it impossible to believe this all just happened :-)

By 'this world', do you mean Earth? What's perfect about it?

irishconvert

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

By 'this world', do you mean Earth? What's perfect about it?

Watch any episode of a David Attenborough documentary.

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

Look at how perfectly this world has been designed.

The victims of the Tsunami might not agree with that.

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't attack you or your beliefs as they are not doing me any harm.

This is not the issue.

The issue up for debate in this thread is whether or not it's a good idea to have a school in this country which is effectively controlled by the religious authorities of another, when we know that the country concerned has a lousy reputation for supporting free and open enquiry, unbiased education and actively rejects the central notion in this country, namely that all human beings have equal rights.

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

Watch any episode of a David Attenborough documentary.

Bad choice! Have a read of this:

The Guardian wrote:

Sir David Attenborough has revealed that he receives hate mail from viewers for failing to credit God in his documentaries. In an interview with this week's Radio Times about his latest documentary, on Charles Darwin and natural selection, the broadcaster said: "They tell me to burn in hell and good riddance."

Telling the magazine that he was asked why he did not give "credit" to God, Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."

Attenborough went further in his opposition to creationism, saying it was "terrible" when it was taught alongside evolution as an alternative perspective. "It's like saying that two and two equals four, but if you wish to believe it, it could also be five ... Evolution is not a theory; it is a fact, every bit as much as the historical fact that William the Conqueror landed in 1066."

Attenborough, who attended the Wyggeston Grammar School for Boys in Leicester in the 1930s, said he was astonished at manifestations of Christian faith.

"It never really occurred to me to believe in God - and I had nothing to rebel against, my parents told me nothing whatsoever. But I do remember looking at my headmaster delivering a sermon, a classicist, extremely clever ... and thinking, he can't really believe all that, can he? How incredible!"

In 2002, Attenborough joined an effort by clerics and scientists to oppose the inclusion of creationism in the curriculum of state-funded independent schools receiving private sponsorship, such as the Emmanuel Schools Foundation.

OK-Cancel-Apply

irishconvert wrote: »

Watch any episode of a David Attenborough documentary.

Robindch made the point about Earth very well, so I don't think I need to say anything more about that.

But what about the other planets in our solar system? What about Mars? Hottest day is no more than 20 degrees, atmospheric pressure is next to nothing. Most likely nothing lives there. Why would God create this place? To look at through our telescopes?

Dades

irishconvert wrote: »

Watch any episode of a David Attenborough documentary.

Ironically, David Attenborough doesn't believe in a benevolent God because he has seen firsthand over decades how imperfect the world is.

EDIT: Snap Robin!

irishconvert

robindch wrote: »

Bad choice! Have a read of this:

I know all about his disbelief in a creator. I just used his name as he is on of the best know natre documentary makers.

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

I know all about his disbelief in a creator. I just used his name as he is on of the best know natre documentary makers.

Er, creator?

The piece I quoted has him disproving the "beautiful world" point you were trying to make. Read the text I put in bold up above.

He's also no fan of religious schools.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

I find it impossible to believe this all just happened :-)

You aren't alone. In fact, so many people make this mistake it even has a name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

MrP

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MrPudding

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Obviously they exist to remove sinners. See? Perfect.

MrP

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you support the concept of democracy? You sound like a dictator who would feel more at home in a state run on the same model as the Saudi dictatorship except with your rules.

Why dont you try responding to my points instead of strawmanning? Is aid that all contrary beliefs uultimately lead to some kind of harm, ergo we need to do something about it. You said debate is useless, so I asked what are the alternatives. You asked how you beliefs hurt me, I explained and now you are comparing me to the Saudi dictatorship. Try to keep on track.

irishconvert wrote: »

People have the right to believe in whatever they want even if you think it is all lies.

Sure they do, but whats that got to do with what we were talking about? You said:

irishconvert wrote:

Do do you want to live in a world where everyone shares the same beliefs, no variety or variation?

Then I said:

Mark Hamill wrote:

If that belief is true, then sure why not? Better than believing in a load of lies, surely. Besides whats so good about variation, thats what leads to one country punishing adultery by lashes and another by death.
Wouldnt you want to live in a world where everyone was muslim?

So, you going to answer my question or just strawman again?

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't know how you come to this conclusion but it is not true. I respect people's right to have their own beliefs. I accept and recpect your decision to be an athiest, I don't attack you or your beliefs as they are not doing me any harm.

You have already attacked our arguments, claiming our purpose is to insult and make theist feel stupid. Now there is nothing wrong with this, a good debate involves the attacking of the opposition arguments (their beliefs), but you dont respect us to allow us the curtesy of doing to your beliefs (your arguments) what you do to ours, and instead of countering our arguments you do the typical theist act and claim disrepect. frankly, at this stage, its getting to be a cliche.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Look at how perfectly this world has been designed. Look at all the perfect creations in it. I find it impossible to believe this all just happened :-)

Then why are there non-muslims in it? And homosexuals and other things god apparently hates enough to send to hell? Why would a perfect god create a perfect world with imperfections he feels the need to punish?

MrPudding

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Then why are there non-muslims in it? And homosexuals and other things god apparently hates enough to send to hell? Why would a perfect god create a perfect world with imperfections he feels the need to punish?

I think it get even better, not only does he create things he seems to hate, he also leaves the option of believing in other gods open.

I love this one personally. There was a thread ages ago and one of the questioned raised was how come people that believed in a god other than the Christian god apparently had their prayers answered? PDN’s response was that he believed the christian god would, on occasion, answer the prayers of believers in other gods. I find this deliciously evil. Worshipping false gods is one of the most heinous sins a person can commit. So, here we have our friend irishconvert praying to allah. Problem is allah does not exist, but he does not know that. So the christian god hears irishconvert’s prayer and answers it, thereby re-enforcing his belief in allah and increasing the likelihood that he will commit to commit the sin of worshipping a false god.

That is quality. Pure evil. Nothing perfect about that.

MrP

g5fd6ow0hseima

Call me recist, but why should a bunch of [people]* frrom the 6th century be allowed to build a school in another country of which the major religion is one which is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia itself? Shouldnt the Irish government now express its wishes to reciprocate the proposal and build a christian school in Saudi Arabia? Imagine the rebuff they would be landed with. Its beyond beggars belief how the Saudis can be so arrogant as to express such wish while still inforcing a deeply rooted legal ban on all other faiths than Wahhabi Shia faith. Why are they in such position of ascendency?

The world were quick enough to stand up against South Africa, yet even in the 21st century, nobody seems to raise any questions about the deeply racist regime which has been in power in Saudi Arabia for years.... Yeah, they're rich in natural resources etc... but I feel, and perhaps many of you do, the country itself is stuck in the dark ages.

*MOD NOTE*
Blanket references such as yours aren't helpful.

Turtwig

You have already attacked our arguments, claiming our purpose is to insult and make theist feel stupid. Now there is nothing wrong with this, a good debate involves the attacking of the opposition arguments (their beliefs), but you dont respect us to allow us the curtesy of doing to your beliefs (your arguments) what you do to ours, and instead of countering our arguments you do the typical theist act and claim disrepect. frankly, at this stage, its getting to be a cliche.

No better time...

Mark Hamill

MrPudding wrote: »

I think it get even better, not only does he create things he seems to hate, he also leaves the option of believing in other gods open.

I love this one personally. There was a thread ages ago and one of the questioned raised was how come people that believed in a god other than the Christian god apparently had their prayers answered? PDN’s response was that he believed the christian god would, on occasion, answer the prayers of believers in other gods. I find this deliciously evil. Worshipping false gods is one of the most heinous sins a person can commit. So, here we have our friend irishconvert praying to allah. Problem is allah does not exist, but he does not know that. So the christian god hears irishconvert’s prayer and answers it, thereby re-enforcing his belief in allah and increasing the likelihood that he will commit to commit the sin of worshipping a false god.

That is quality. Pure evil. Nothing perfect about that.

MrP

Oh? Nothing perfect about that? I would say it's perfectly evil!

Fighting Irish

fitz0 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1209/1224260355637.html



I'm not sure about the rest of you but I don't particularly like the fact that a foreign government has plans (that will probably be allowed) to establish a school in our country. Especially a country so heavily influenced by a religion that is so hostile to our way of life. It seems to me to be a sly way of introducing the Islamic agenda into second and third generation immigrants who might be freeing themselves from the oppressive religion of their parents.

Also the bit about the secondary school is a bit worrying in that it would “achieve a long cherished Muslim ambition.” Is integration into Irish society something they don't want?

What do you all think of this?

no worse than a catholic school

Nodin

Dane Nice Aerosol wrote: »

Call me recist, but why should a bunch of [people]* frrom the 6th century be allowed to build a school in another country of which the major religion is one which is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia itself?

...because we aren't Saudi Arabia, thankfully.

TheCandystripes

in paris i got in with a load of knackers who were muslim and nearly was gonna convert. these lads were absolute mental. went to an islamic school. this is a bad move for ireland. p.s i have loads of muslim friends and they're cool but just saying

Nodin

TheCandystripes wrote: »

in paris i got in with a load of knackers who were muslim

Presuming that you're using the term "knackers" in the sense of 'given to criminalty' sense, then it might be better to say that they were nominally muslim......A strict wahabi outlook would preclude that kind of thing.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

A strict wahabi outlook would preclude that kind of thing.

Can't tell if these guys are strict Wahhabi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol1BH-e6Y0k

There's not much to do in Saudi of a dry Friday afternoon.

oceanclub

Sorry if this has been answered already, but if such a school is opened, is the Department of Education responsible for vetting the schoolbooks used?

P.