Budget 2010 - Infrastructure Thread

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

Seems crazy to keep the New Ross bypass in the Governments spending plans, is there something we are not seeing here? as in will the project be jettisoned for other reasons or by minsterial sleight of hand?.

Seems to be that The populations such as Adare, Mallow, Limerick, Cork, Chareville and the entire Atlantic corridor is to wait.


There is something wrong. Because I remember that the New Ross bypass was put on the backburner. There is no way in hell that all this spending should go to the SE, after the SE getting a fast tracked M9 over many other schemes already.


Its absurd. People should be in uproar over this. The road between Irelands second, Third and Fourth cities has to be a priority as it's a safey hazard and not just an economical issue.

Tech3

invincibleirish wrote: »

Seems crazy to keep the New Ross bypass in the Governments spending plans, is there something we are not seeing here? as in will the project be jettisoned for other reasons or by minsterial sleight of hand?.

I assume it gives better access to Rosslare port?

Honestly the M20 should be well ahead of it. Basically the road from Cork to Limerick to Galway should be priority after the MUI's plus Newlands Cross.

mysterious

BluntGuy wrote: »

People are sheep (and not very intelligent sheep at that), and they vote for corruption and greed, and yes I do believe people need to wake up and start voting properly, otherwise we'll continue to get treated like the collective morons we are.

But that has NOTHING to do with the point in question. The point is the M20 is gone from the PPP list. Our elected representatives have chosen to shaft the M20. You can't claim that's not what people voted for, because as a nation we put people into power who made that decision on our behalf.

Anyway, let's keep the political discussion down, obviously there's necessity for some political reflection given the nature of the topic, but it should relate back to infrastructure ultimately.

Bluntguy I agree, but it seems it just keeps getting worse. I dont think voting works at all. Because everyone says they were not voting for Fianna fail last time after they spoiled the 4 years before that and turned the country upside down. But for some strange reason they got in again and not only broke every promised to date, but have totally sent the country into red on every level.

Now the little money they have are using our money for reckless spending with little thought or responsibility again.


Nothing is changing. The State of the N20 is an absaloute joke. The M9 and N11 has gotten more money than any other region in the last few years. Enough is enough.

I don't even use the N20 that much and thats goes to show how I am been real here. I'm not some local gobeen who wants all my roads glorified. Anyone with a right mind can see whats going on here with our money being spent.

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

I assume it gives better access to Rosslare port?

Honestly the M20 should be well ahead of it. Basically the road from Cork to Limerick to Galway should be priority after the MUI's plus Newlands Cross.

Cork Port?
Cork harboru?
Foynes port? (that road is lethal)
Shannon Estaury


The entire Atlantic Corridor was on the T21 not the New Ross bypass. This is the exact same mindless white elephant planning that went on when Martin Cullen was minister.


The N69, N71, N28, N22, N20, N21, N17, N24 are again forgotten. Even though these roads connect with the Atlantic Corridor.


They manage to focus on A road between Waterford and Wexford. The Enniscorthy bypass going ahead aswell. I hate to be blunt the the SE can bloody wait around for a while, all the money is not to be going to one region at the suffering of another. This corruption is absurd.


Techy I'm not attacking you or pointing to you personall, the Port just sparked this paragraph off.

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

I assume it gives better access to Rosslare port?

Honestly the M20 should be well ahead of it. Basically the road from Cork to Limerick to Galway should be priority after the MUI's plus Newlands Cross.

Thats what the plan was last year. Some Corrupt TD from the SE probably just threw that plan out the window. Afterall we all know how many people in the Dail have holiday homes all the way down the N11 to Wexford.


The gas thing about this. the SE would have a DC from Waterford to Wexford a motorway way from Wexford to Dublin. Another motorway from Waterford to Dublin.


Can someone tell me how did this plan seem just suddenly come about of recent? Is it ok to do this and leave the rest of the country just falling apart.


Why are we allowing this crap to go on?

westtip

BluntGuy wrote: »

The reality is that the government have dumped the M20.

Do I agree with that choice? No.

I believe it should take priority over the M18/M17. But it hasn't. We can debate whether that was correct or not, but that's the unfortunate reality of the situation.

Unless you mean "real world" in another sense.

My guess is Grealish has kept the M18/17 higher on the agenda. I cannot understand why the M20 is not however on the list of seemingly projects on the A list post interurbans. It is both busy and very dangerous road.

Tech3

The NRA are also considering an additional bundle of PPP projects, and progress on these will be determined by availability of funding

I wonder what schemes the NRA have lined up for this?

Maybe this:

M20 - Limerick to Cork
N17 Tuam to Claremorris
N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale
N17 Collooney to Knock bypass


The N5 might make it in before one of the N17 schemes however.

BluntGuy

westtip wrote: »

My guess is Grealish has kept the M18/17 higher on the agenda. I cannot understand why the M20 is not however on the list of seemingly projects on the A list post interurbans. It is both busy and very dangerous road.

Well I won't for one second argue that the N18 and N17 aren't in horrendous states and need improvements such as the M18/M17 PPP and Claregalway bypass. But letting political interferring as you say, get in the way of the more necessary projects is contributing to the ruining of this country.

Sponge Bob

The Gort Tuam project is VASTLY more advanced than Cork Limerick is but I explained that at length in its own thread.

We covered the cancellation 3 months ago while Mysterious was hibernating or something , it is not a budget thing.

BluntGuy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The Gort Tuam project is VASTLY more advanced than Cork Limerick is but I explained that at length in its own thread.

That may be true, but it was still part of the original bundle of PPPs which included the M20, and the M20 was shafted. Since the M17/M18 is the only scheme of comparable length and type in the package, of course it feels like it took priority over the M20, which it did.

Hypothetically, had funding been allocated to complete the planning and CPO, potentially construction work could've begun on the project perhaps only a few short months after work potentially can begin on the M17/M18.

Sponge Bob

Dunno about that at all , it is an EIS and a Public Hearing and report behind the other. At least a year from publication of EIS to opening a tender.

Mysterious should rant more at O Dea and Martin...not us

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Dunno about that at all , it is an EIS and a Public Hearing and report behind the other. At least a year from publication of EIS to opening a tender.

Mysterious should rant more at O Dea and Martin...not us

Sponge Bob, None of the ministers are deciding these things anymore as far as I'm concerned. If the sheep want to be led fair enough. But i've had ti with this hor****e that we are constantly putting up with. These TDs going around on first class jets and helicopters to commute what sort of joke is this?

The point of this thread is the M20 needs a proper road that connects are main largest urban centres. Dublin needs proper a proper public transport system. NCX needs a flyover. But again here we are not 4 years later on every road project. But now we are going to have a second promise broken with the MIUs running into 2011. Yet you don't hear the NRA annocing that. They keep announcing road ahead schedule. It's inane. This white elephant T.D trophey showing hometown road ribbon cutting is over. It's time for the people of Ireland to get real. After all this nonsense and BS, they come up with 2billion euro spend in the SE and feck everything else. Once again this budget is a slap in the face. No spongebob, this isn't a rant, this is a dire need complaint that I'm adressing on this forum so people can have this reality hit us in them face already.

The whole world is lapping up to the corruption, and we spend 900 years fighting for our say in the world, and now we give it all up to have leaders who cant run a fridge never mind the country. Reckless planning and greed is not to be tolerated.

Zoney

tech2 wrote: »

I wonder what schemes the NRA have lined up for this?

Maybe this:

M20 - Limerick to Cork
N17 Tuam to Claremorris
N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale
N17 Collooney to Knock bypass


The N5 might make it in before one of the N17 schemes however.

A bundle of PPP projects makes it sound like a bunch of smaller projects bunged together, just like Newlands plus Arklow-Rathnew. I'm presuming it's 3/4 small projects that they hope to add to the PPP list as a single PPP.

Irish and Proud

mysterious wrote: »

Said who?

The N11 entire section can wait....


The N20 has recieved no attention in recent years. The death toll is higher and the standard of road is shocking in comparison to the N11.

Priority and common sense come first, not fantasy as I'd look to put back to you. The Mallow to Croom section is the worst national primary road in the country which handles 15,000 a day with a high amount of trucks using it. The Adare section carries traffic about 17,000 a day and is one of Irelands worst bottlenecks. The N20 has not just one but 3 bottlenecks on the route.


Your living in complete fantasy, with your notions.

...I want to get my oar in here!

The very definition of interurban should mean precisely that - roads linking Dublin with Cork, Limerick and Galway, plus a link between the latter 3 cities. That of course means the M20 and M18 motorways. Waterford, as a matter of interest, was not included in the interurban program around 2000 - the interurbans mentioned as required were: M1 to the border, M4/M6 to Galway, M7 to Limerick, plus M8 to Cork. The M9 to Waterford was regarded as a remote possibility then! If we had the resources, both the M9 and M3 motorways should have been done indeed, but with essential projects such as the N22 Macroom Bypass, N25 CSRR Upgrade, M20 etc not done, priorities were obviously wrong - wonder why? :rolleyes:

But Mysterious, both Meath (well Meath West that is!) and Waterford are big priorities - I wonder why! :rolleyes: I'm from East Meath myself and wonder why that part of Meath isn't getting any attention! :rolleyes: All in all, there seems to be a lot in common between Meath West and Waterford! :rolleyes:

In short, my priorities would be (not in any particular order):

1) Interconnector
2) Metro North (change of heart! )
3) M18 Galway to Limerick
4) M20 Cork to Limerick
5) N7 Newlands Cross & M11 Arklow to Rathnew
6) M22 CNRR
7) N25 CSRR Upgrade
8) N22 Macroom Bypass
9) Luas to Finglas
10) Luas West

Regards!

BluntGuy

Ìnterconnector is number one transport priority but I fear it will ultimately lose out to Metro North.

fresca

one thing we all have in common is the palpable sense of anger with regard to:
1. continued failure to deliver a cohesive infrastructure
2. the lack of transparency from the nra
3. the perceived ministerial interference on project prioritisation

it seems that there is no single point of responsibility.

i understand why the Dublin area and South-East area get more investment - they have larger populations. however, without investment in infrastructure in the west (north-west, mid-west & south-west) the migration of people from west to east will continue. meaning larger population in E & SE. meaning more demand for monies for infrastructure / public transport etc in those areas.

to me this policy (and yes it is goverment policy) is adding more fuel to the fire of social inequity in this country.

BluntGuy

fresca wrote: »

i understand why the Dublin area and South-East area get more investment - they have larger populations. however, without investment in infrastructure in the west (north-west, mid-west & south-west) the migration of people from west to east will continue. meaning larger population in E & SE. meaning more demand for monies for infrastructure / public transport etc in those areas.

Unfortunately when the west does get a significant chunk of money to spend, it wastes it on projects like the Western Rail Corridor.

€300 million.

Think of how far that could've gone had it been appropiately invested. They could get some new buses for Galway, a new bus corridor, a cycle path or two, even chuck in a Claregalway bypass if you like.

Instead they're going to get an antiquated railway line that'll be useful to approximately nobody, with low-frequencies and torturously long journey times.

THAT is what people should be angry about. Not a lack of money. They got the money and they wasted it unfortunately.

Sponge Bob

they only got €110m for Ennis - Athenry and will get some old railcars to run on it...not more than 4 . €120m tops!

mysterious

The Wexford Enniscorthy bypass, N11 Arklow gap, New ross bypass is not going ahead under the current climate.


There is no way in hell this kind of reckless spending to go on in one area just because TDs like to get to their holiday homes in the SE on a friday afternoon in the dail. To all the TDs reading this, those days are over.

I'm making sure all governments are done and over! This corruption cannot be accepted anymore. I don't accept it.

nordydan

mysterious wrote: »

The Wexford Enniscorthy bypass, N11 Arklow gap, New ross bypass is not going ahead under the current climate.


There is no way in hell this kind of reckless spending to go on in one area just because TDs like to get to their holiday homes in the SE on a friday afternoon in the dail. To all the TDs reading this, those days are over.

I'm making sure all governments are done and over! This corruption cannot be accepted anymore. I don't accept it.

These schemes are not just being built because the TD's like to get to their holiday homes, otherwise the M1 would not have been the first MIU completed. The one direction you can guarantee there are no TD holiday homes!

mysterious

nordydan wrote: »

These schemes are not just being built because the TD's like to get to their holiday homes, otherwise the M1 would not have been the first MIU completed. The one direction you can guarantee there are no TD holiday homes!

Well there is no logic in allowing 3 schemes going ahead in the one region in one year after 2 schemes in the SE already gone through in 2008. There is an agenda here and its not a good one.

Its time we get real with this.

Whoever came up with this spending spree in the SE is dreaming a bit to much!.

PoolDude

The number of deaths on the N11 Arklow - Rathnew section is one good reason it needs to go ahead - it must have the highest rate in the country per mile.

Chris_533976

They've organised it badly.

PPP1 should be Newlands & M11 gap.
PPP2 should be M17/18
PPP3 should be New Ross and Galway bypass
PPP4 & 5 should be the M20.

Enniscorthy is not as important as the M20, simple as that.

jd

I think they try to parcel schemes that are fairly close.

rubensni

BluntGuy wrote: »

Ìnterconnector is number one transport priority but I fear it will ultimately lose out to Metro North.

Wouldn't bet on it. My own feeling is that the Metro could be the first to go if there was a general election any time soon. The path of the metro (right through Bertie's constituency) was blatant politics and the price of the project will be prohibitive.

The Dart underground through the Interconnector and the Phoenix Park tunnel along with an expanded Luas would connect the northside nicely.

BluntGuy

rubensni wrote: »

Wouldn't bet on it. My own feeling is that the Metro could be the first to go if there was a general election any time soon. The path of the metro (right through Bertie's constituency) was blatant politics and the price of the project will be prohibitive.

Not in this nation sadly.

RPA will get funding (if there even *is* any) because they're better organised and better at cramming their project down people's throats.

Irish Rail are horrendous at PR. And I think it'll be the PR battle that wins the funding.

I hope you're right though, I really do.

The Dart underground through the Interconnector and the Phoenix Park tunnel along with an expanded Luas would connect the northside nicely.

I'd advocate, Dart Underground + Quad Track Northern Line + Airport Underground which would be achieved for less than the additional cost of Metro North and would have principal benefit (the airport link) of Metro North.

D'Peoples Voice

PoolDude wrote: »

The number of deaths on the N11 Arklow - Rathnew section is one good reason it needs to go ahead - it must have the highest rate in the country per mile.

I don't know what it is per mile as our statistics in this country use kilometres, but the statistics in relation to COLLISIONS say

Table 51 Fatal and Injury Collisions on National Routes Classified by Route
Page 61 of 68 in Adobe Acrobat

National route			Rate per 10^6 Veh. Km*
N29 				0.40
N12 				0.24
N28 				0.19
N30 				0.15
N16 				0.14
N14 				0.14
N23 				0.14
N21 				0.13
N24 				0.13
N3 				0.12
N22 				0.12
N15 				0.12
N2 				0.11
N5 				0.10
N10 				0.10
N9 				0.09
N33 				0.09
N1 				0.08
N13 				0.08
N17 				0.08
N18 				0.07
N25 				0.07
N11 				0.06
N6 				0.06
N7 				0.06
N20 				0.06
N4 				0.05
N8 				0.08
M50 				0.03
N32 				0.02
N26 				0.02
N27 				0.02
N19 				0.00
N31				0.00

in what part of the country is the N29, N28 and the N30? I know the N12 is in Donegal. We should focus our resources in these parts of the country!

invincibleirish

The N28 is the road from the Cork South Ring down to Ringaskiddy via Carrigaline & Passage West (A new build DC was promised to replace it during the one for everyone in the audience days of the C***** T****). interesting find D'peoples Voice.

Cool Mo D

invincibleirish wrote: »

The N28 is the road from the Cork South Ring down to Ringaskiddy via Carrigaline & Passage West (A new build DC was promised to replace it during the one for everyone in the audience days of the C***** T****). interesting find D'peoples Voice.

N30 is Waterford-New Ross- Enniscorthy, and I believe that the N29 is a stub of a road connecting the N25 to Waterford port.

PoolDude

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I don't know what it is per mile as our statistics in this country use kilometres, but the statistics in relation to COLLISIONS say

Table 51 Fatal and Injury Collisions on National Routes Classified by Route
Page 61 of 68 in Adobe Acrobat

National route			Rate per 10^6 Veh. Km*
N29 				0.40
N12 				0.24
N28 				0.19
N30 				0.15
N16 				0.14
N14 				0.14
N23 				0.14
N21 				0.13
N24 				0.13
N3 				0.12
N22 				0.12
N15 				0.12
N2 				0.11
N5 				0.10
N10 				0.10
N9 				0.09
N33 				0.09
N1 				0.08
N13 				0.08
N17 				0.08
N18 				0.07
N25 				0.07
N11 				0.06
N6 				0.06
N7 				0.06
N20 				0.06
N4 				0.05
N8 				0.08
M50 				0.03
N32 				0.02
N26 				0.02
N27 				0.02
N19 				0.00
N31				0.00

in what part of the country is the N29, N28 and the N30? I know the N12 is in Donegal. We should focus our resources in these parts of the country!

That looks at the issue too broadly - it needs to broken into the component parts to identify the most dangerous stretchs, as opposed to looking at a stat for the N11 it should look at the stats for the N11 Arklow - Rathnew. That would tell a different story, as I'm sure it would for other key stretches of road that need investment across the country.