Budget 2010 - Infrastructure Thread

Irish and Proud

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I don't know what it is per mile as our statistics in this country use kilometres, but the statistics in relation to COLLISIONS say

Table 51 Fatal and Injury Collisions on National Routes Classified by Route
Page 61 of 68 in Adobe Acrobat

National route			Rate per 10^6 Veh. Km*
N29 				0.40
N12 				0.24
N28 				0.19
N30 				0.15
N16 				0.14
N14 				0.14
N23 				0.14
N21 				0.13
N24 				0.13
N3 				0.12
N22 				0.12
N15 				0.12
N2 				0.11
N5 				0.10
N10 				0.10
N9 				0.09
N33 				0.09
N1 				0.08
N13 				0.08
N17 				0.08
N18 				0.07
N25 				0.07
N11 				0.06
N6 				0.06
N7 				0.06
N20 				0.06
N4 				0.05
N8 				0.08
M50 				0.03
N32 				0.02
N26 				0.02
N27 				0.02
N19 				0.00
N31				0.00

in what part of the country is the N29, N28 and the N30? I know the N12 is in Donegal. We should focus our resources in these parts of the country!

The N29 is a new build access route into Belview Port near Waterford City. It seems to be a wide straight road for about 2 miles maybe. How it could be the most dangerous road in the country is above and beyond me - if I'm right in my estimation, the predominant traffic on this road are trucks. Thy only other explanation would be joy riders using this road at night. Maybe one solution would be to install a wire barrier down the centre thereby making the road 1+1! If it's down to joy riders - well a boot camp in the vicinity might help!

Regards!

L1011

N28 is the road to Ringaskiddy port (never been on it) and the N30 is the New Ross to Enniscorthy road (some sections like runways). Both have planned upgrades, a near complete DC replacement of then N28 and extensive bypassing / new alignments on the N30

I'd guess the N30 could have high accident rates due to high speed head-ons.

The N12 is in Monaghan not Donegal btw!

spacetweek

Most of those roads are minor and/or short. In the case of short roads like the N28 and N29, you only need one 3-car pileup in a year and it gets bumped up to the top of the list. Better to look at the rates for significantly long routes.

What's interesting is that the interurbans were never dangerous roads in the first place - all of them appear near the bottom of the list. Upgrades are mainly a traffic capacity thing - though I'm aware that certain sections may be dangerous while others are not.

If you guys want this in graphical format you can use the Eurorap reports though the last time they surveyed Ireland was 2002-2006 so it's out of date. Gives us a generally good rating which is undoubtedly higher now as we all know due to new motorways and a falling death rate in recent years.

Confusingly, according to that map, the N29 is very safe (marked in green).

Zoney

spacetweek:

That still leaves the N21 (Limerick-Tralee) as very high up there for a fairly busy route in places (DC levels of traffic through Adare), fairly long, and pretty strategic (connects at least North Kerry, if not all of Kerry, to Dublin via itself, N22/N23, and the N7).

D'Peoples Voice

spacetweek wrote: »

If you guys want this in graphical format you can use the Eurorap reports though the last time they surveyed Ireland was 2002-2006 so it's out of date. Gives us a generally good rating which is undoubtedly higher now as we all know due to new motorways and a falling death rate in recent years.

Confusingly, according to that map, the N29 is very safe (marked in green).

Could it be that there are a massive number of COLLISIONS on the N29 but very few FATALITIES, and that explains the anomaly! I don't know, I'm just guessing here.
I wonder what motor insurance quotations would be like for people living in the counties with the N28, N29 and N30 compared to say those with the N6 or N17.

Zoney

spacetweek:

Plus that map isn't good for comparing primary routes to each other as due to the high rating compared to secondaries, the primaries are all much the same. The table on the other hand is a bit more useful in comparing the primaries.

That map does show how shocking the state of secondary roads is (and actually with the strides made on R roads, many R roads are better than some secondaries, despite still some truly shocking R roads too).

irish fighter

The N29 has had alot of bad collisions and some fatalities because it is a long well maintained road that a lot of trucks use both there are more car using it as well because you can use it to get back to waterford city by back roads this might add to the problem.

mysterious

Schemes put forward

Should be first,
Adare (northern end M20)
Newlands Cross
M17/M18.


For now.

Sponge Bob

Adare is a new route which means it is not ready to go until there is an EIS and a public hearing. It cannot possibly go to construction before 2011 as you know well mysterious.

Therefore it is highly disingenous to discuss it in a thread about 2010 expenditure ONLY:(

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Adare is a new route which means it is not ready to go until there is an EIS and a public hearing. It cannot possibly go to construction before 2011 as you know well mysterious.

Therefore it is highly disingenous to discuss it in a thread about 2010 expenditure ONLY:(

LOL, I'm not a sheep and I wont be treated like one. Thus meaning, I'm not in slippers bowing to what Noel Demspey wants.

I will not pick for what I want.

I will pick by priority and whats needs to be done first. Don't give me that "disingenous crap" please.

Sponge Bob

"Highly Disingenous" was the phrase I used. No road will be built in 2010 that has not completed the EIS and Public Hearing/Report stages of the planning process.

That is an absolute and this thread is about those that have and that could progress to construction in 2010. By and large they won't.

Find another thread and bang on about Adare in there like a good lad. It will not figure in the 2010 capex envelope.

Carawaystick

MYOB wrote: »

N28 is the road to Ringaskiddy port (never been on it)

The N28 starts at a freeflow trumpet interchange with the N25 and heads on uphill WS3(2up,1Down) for about 3km before narrowing to narrow windy S2. It;s the only rural road I know of with a "no right turn" shortly after the narrow section. the narrow section goes on for maybe 8 or 10 km and then there's WS2 from before Carrigaline to Ringaskiddy. and a lot of the WS2 is 60kmh limited, from Shanbally to the port.

No right turn is the junction n the centre of the link
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.852507,-8.41836&spn=0.007091,0.014355&t=h&z=16

North towards the city you can see the wider section.

Zoney

mysterious:

Have to agree with Spongebob - even if they made it a priority, that would only ensure it definitely happens in the next couple years - not next year.

If M20 and Adare bypass remain down the list, I would not be opposed to a further revisiting of the planning of both schemes - they still seem in some ways ill-thought out. If we are low on funding, surely the northern M20 could be further split up to allow a sooner completion of south of Croom to south of Mallow exclusively (before southern section or the northern tie-in), bypassing the worst of the existing road. The short piece north of Croom to Patrickswell (which could be left as is for longer despite how it would "look" after completion of more M20 south of it) could be made part of the Adare Bypass project and a better tie-in arranged for the existing N21 DC/local routes, existing M20 and the planned N21 bypass.

Chris_533976

Agreed. Nothing will go to construction except possibly the M17/18 PPP in Q4 2010, but given how things usually go that might slip into 2011, if at all.

Or if absolutely necessary for money, build half the M20 with fully wide bridges. Just build one carriageway and make it S2. Fill in the other at a later date. Dunno if thats possible though, but the online bits could fit fairly seamlessly into it and wouldnt have to be touched.

Zoney

Chris: I think that's not regarded as a good idea for safety reasons (nightime especially) as people may mistakenly believe they are on DC (in fact even ordinary grade separated single carriageway has this problem). I've heard that the experience of driving on the Banbridge bypass up North when it was in the half-built phase was pretty dodgy alright.

Carawaystick

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Or if absolutely necessary for money, build half the M20 with fully wide bridges. Just build one carriageway and make it S2. Fill in the other at a later date. Dunno if thats possible though, but the online bits could fit fairly seamlessly into it and wouldnt have to be touched.

This is Standard Practise in Germany.

spacetweek

Carawaystick wrote: »

This is Standard Practise in Germany.

Not really, except in a small number of cases like the A1 at Fehmarn near Denmark. The Germans scale up all their infrastructure and don't pinch pennies. We shouldn't either.

Agree with splitting the M20 into smaller sections and taking longer to build it. Some sections are definitely far more essential than others. Let's do the Adare BP and the Mallow-Croom central bit. The rest can wait, as it's already up to an OK standard. We can give ourselves up to 2020 to finish the lot.

jd

The Sunday Business Post reports today that 50% of schemes in the early to mid planning stages will be suspended by the NRA. The only schemes to complete tendering next year and have contracts signed will be will be
N11 Arklow-Rathnew + Newlands Cross N7/R113 Freeflow
and
M17/M18 Gort-Tuam
with construction of these starting in 2011

L1011

Did they say Newlands was N7/M50? Its N7/R113, shoddy fact checking if they did!

jd

MYOB wrote: »

Did they say Newlands was N7/M50? Its N7/R113, shoddy fact checking if they did!

They didn't mention route numbers, I had a brain f*rt :o

Sponge Bob

I think this was perfectly obvious once one examined the budget a month back

Remember this ??

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63419140&postcount=14

JupiterKid

If it allows sections to proceed faster, then the M20 should definitely be phased in sections. The Mallow to Charleville stretch is the most essential section IMO as it bypasses Buttevant and the really poor section of road around the town.

Adare is an urgent priority for bypassing.

JupiterKid

Zoney wrote: »

Chris: I think that's not regarded as a good idea for safety reasons (nightime especially) as people may mistakenly believe they are on DC (in fact even ordinary grade separated single carriageway has this problem). I've heard that the experience of driving on the Banbridge bypass up North when it was in the half-built phase was pretty dodgy alright.

I think it's fine to build one carriageway first but I think the cost of building bridges/excavating the land for a dual carriageway would mean most of the cost would be at the initial phase of the scheme.

If rapidly growing hegding or a wooden wall is put in place it can mitigate the mistaken perception by drivers of being on a DC. The problem with the Banbridge bypass was that this wasn't done.

L1011

It really isn't a runner for a grade-seperated DC - the cost of the structures makes it pointless. The Banbridge BP wasn't (fully?) grade-seperated when built. At least one of the bridges is only a few years old, etc.

Chris_533976

jd wrote: »

The Sunday Business Post reports today that 50% of schemes in the early to mid planning stages will be suspended by the NRA. The only schemes to complete tendering next year and have contracts signed will be will be
N11 Arklow-Rathnew + Newlands Cross N7/R113 Freeflow
and
M17/M18 Gort-Tuam
with construction on these starting in 2011

Kind of what we expected TBH.

Sponge Bob

94 schemes have been suspended, all that is happening is that the first tranche of announcements will be made in January so there is no doubt about it any more. More cancellations will be announced periodically during the year.

Longford - Mullingar will be in the tranche (I understand) as will the Macroom bypass and the Abbeyfeale / Newcastle West scheme. Dempsey has asked them not to cancel all 94 in one go.

L1011

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Dempsey has asked them not to cancel all 94 in one go.

In the vague hope the Greens will have another huff and leave, or the one (possibly two...) impending by-elections cause a general election?

Chris_533976

Spongey is this "outright cancelling", "put on long finger but keep the current plans" or "put on long finger and maybe replan in the future sometime"???

Cancelling the Macroom bypass altogether would be daft; although the entire scheme is probably a bit much, a local bypass and Macroom to Ballyvourney is needed.

Sponge Bob

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Spongey is this "outright cancelling", "put on long finger but keep the current plans" or "put on long finger and maybe replan in the future sometime"???

Put on longest possible finger and under review as well. This is the Irish way of cancelling through administrative fudge and bullmanure and that is what Dempsey Cowen and the Greens agreed back in October in the new programme for government.

http://www.thepost.ie/newsfeatures/no-major-new-roads-to-be-started-in-2010-46526.html

Fred Barry said

‘‘There are quite a few schemes at an advanced state of planning that will be available to build once the funding position improves. But in light of this situation and the new programme for government, we are suspending planning on some schemes for now."

He also mentioned reviews in light of lower traffic. That review crap is what will kill a road in the "advanced stages" of planning such as the long Macroom scheme.

=Chris_533976 wrote: »

Cancelling the Macroom bypass altogether would be daft; although the entire scheme is probably a bit much, a local bypass and Macroom to Ballyvourney is needed.

Well where is the EIS due in 2009 ??? If an EIS is indeed completed but not published and they 'review' the EIS in light of lower traffic then the EIS will need to be redone and there will be no money for that , naturally.

I take your point about Macroom Ballyvourney, no matter what is reviewed it will still need to be an S2 as planned. , however a review could kill the other more easterly sections and could be used to block the Ballyvourney section from progressing. To quote the roads office in Cork some years back.

Modern road projects are scoped according to these 1998 projections, even now , for traffic to 2019

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/GeneralPublications/file,3502,en.PDF

They said

MAX.ANNUAL AVERAGE DAILY TRAFFIC (AADT) FOR LOSRoad Type Classification C D E
Standard-2-Lane Rural 6,500 11,600 20,600
Commuter 8,400 15,000 26,800

Wide-2-Lane Rural 7,700 13,800 24,600
Commuter 10,000 17,900 32,000

Dual Carriageway Rural 34,600 44,100 53,500
Commuter 45,000 57,400 69,600

Motorway Rural 43,500 55,000 62,500
Commuter 56,500 72,200 81,200

Over To Cork

"In order to cater for projected traffic levels in 2019, the National Road Needs Study proposed the following improvements to the N22 between Ballincollig and Ballyvourney (currently National Primary Route):
Ballincollig to Coachford Junction (R619): Reduced Dual carriageway improvement.
Coachford Junction (R619) to Macroom: Wide 2 Lane carriageway improvement
Macroom bypass to Ballyvourney/Ballymakeery bypass: Standard 2 lane carriageway improvement"

Chris_533976

AFAIK they decided eventually to 2+2 (or even HQDC) to Macroom or even the whole way to Killarney. THATS overkill and needs to be reduced.

I maybe think that some of the 2+2 splurge needs to be nipped in the bud. For instance, tracts of the N26 (less than 10k AADT) was going to get 19km of 2+2. Thats crazy in my view; although these routes need updating, 2+2 is overkill. I realise than some of the interurbans get less traffic than that but they are connecting major population centres. I dunno, the way I see it is that everything that was WS2 or even S2 is being planned as 2+2, and thats way overkill. Loads of routes would be perfectly adequate as S2.