Why are we not taking to the streets to protest at this?

CityCentreMan

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20% Reduction still leaves him overpaid!!!

LookingFor

I agree about the bailing out of Anglo etc. I'm not sure if they've been convincing about the need to do that beyond helping the shareholders in that bank.

But going on and on about 'rich people' in general. Most people who made themselves rich did so through taking on huge personal risk and stress and sacrificing a lot for a long time before becoming wealthy and enjoying the fruits of their work. I really dislike the general 'rich people' witch hunt that's been going on of late, people hooking all the country's ills on this nebulous blob of 'rich people'.

Rich people already pay far far more tax than 'regular' people. There's a small proportion who've left the country and exiled themselves for tax purposes, but that's not most 'rich people'.

We should stop looking to punish people who've gained wealth fair and square, and start trying to become wealthy ourselves. Start being productive, stop being passive consumers. I see so many of my friends bitch about their low paying jobs while downing a latte in Starbucks, but then when I outline their options to them in terms of maybe starting their own business, or doing a part time course to get better skills for a better job, they clam up. Most people talk a good talk about wanting more, but they're not actually willing to do what's necessary. They're much happier to stick to their menial-but-mentally-untaxing work, while applying bitterness about their own inability to commit to doing better for themselves to other people who HAVE done the necessary to achieve that.

Wake up Ireland! We have to start producing, creating. People here should be starting little side businesses and stuff. It's never been easier to do this with little monetary investment. But it all depends on people's willingness to actually change your circumstances. I'm in particular talking to younger people here with little commitments. This is a generation that NEEDS to be entrepenurial.

The_Conductor

The budget may have started to act on people's criticisms- but by god its no-where near sufficient. We need to find another 5 billion in cuts for next year, and a further 4 billion in 2011- if we are to keep our agreement with the EU Commission (and even then projections are for a national debt in excess of 100% of GDP by 2020- providing expenditure is kept under control).

We are in serious trouble........

TokenWhite

ste365 wrote: »

created thousands of jobs.......which are all gone now!!!!

Wake up and realise that the economy we have been living in for years having been created by property gurus and banking officials has been a false word that was never real!!! Payback time is happening to the lower classes and the upper wealthier classes who have most benefitted from this are being protected by the government.

Protecting? How? Is it not a tiered approach? higher you earn the more you pay in tax, so in relative terms and actual terms the higher earners actually pay more, if you over tax high earners its a massive dis incentive to work in a country, especially considering high earners will find it easier to just up and leave as opposed to those on lower income.

ste365

frman wrote: »

I'll pay my fair share like everyone else.

Have you been hit with a massive reduction that I missed in the budget or something ?

Or are you one of the people that believe that they shouldn't have to suffer any reduction in standard of living ?

I dont have a standard of living that I would want to keep. You obviously are one of the lucky ones from those comments which seem ignorant to alot of other peoples situation in this society.

As I said. Lucky you.

jackthekipper

Drumpot wrote: »

Seriously dude . . Stop . . Please stop . .

Doesnt matter who the email is from or who wrote it . .

The example is a fair reflection of the "tax the rich" stance some people (who dont understand basic economics) take in these times without understanding the dynamics involved in balancing the books. .

What, in any world, has that got in comparison to those viral emails about Nigerian bank millions that have no explanation of anything ? ? ?

Do you understand what an analogy is ?

I know what an anology is, but why plaster a name at the bottom of a made up economist.

frman

smccarrick wrote: »

The budget may have started to act on people's criticisms- but by god its no-where near sufficient. We need to find another 5 billion in cuts for next year, and a further 4 billion in 2011- if we are to keep our agreement with the EU Commission (and even then projections are for a national debt in excess of 100% of GDP by 2020- providing expenditure is kept under control).

I agree with this.

The population was braced for a really really tough budget. This wasn't nearly as tough as expected. Missed opportunity, and will only put the problem onto next year's speech.

ste365

TokenWhite wrote: »

Protecting? How? Is it not a tiered approach? higher you earn the more you pay in tax, so in relative terms and actual terms the higher earners actually pay more, if you over tax high earners its a massive dis incentive to work in a country, especially considering high earners will find it easier to just up and leave as opposed to those on lower income.

How many of the banking officials or property developers have been held accountable for their actions in creating this mess.Not one has fallen to their knees yet.

America hunted many of them down. There is an example to show society.

frman

ste365 wrote: »

I dont have a standard of living that I would want to keep. You obviously are one of the lucky ones from those comments which seem ignorant to alot of other peoples situation in this society.

As I said. Lucky you.

I just don't get what your beef is with this budget ?


It seems that you are just p1ssed off with the Govt in general.

The budget was fair. Fairer than expected.

frman

ste365 wrote: »

How many of the banking officials or property developers have been held accountable for their actions in creating this mess.Not one has fallen to their knees yet.

remind me of the illegal activities that the individual bankers did again ?

Tilt Gone

ste365 wrote: »

I dont have a standard of living that I would want to keep. You obviously are one of the lucky ones from those comments which seem ignorant to alot of other peoples situation in this society.

As I said. Lucky you.

Ah cm'on your not that bad off if your sitting here typing away on your pc / laptop. Obviously still paying for your internet connection also. some people dont no the meaning of the word harsh. it wasn't that long ago we didnt have electricity in this country ffs.

ste365

frman wrote: »

I just don't get what your beef is with this budget ?


It seems that you are just p1ssed off with the Govt in general.

The budget was fair. Fairer than expected.

It seems to me that you are full of assumptions based on ignorance. A well educated way to discuss matters!!

stooge

I wouldnt say its a fair budget as he could have hit bank bosses/managers and cut SW more. The people taking the hit in this budget will feel a lot of resentment that banks are getting away relatively scot free.

Everyone was expecting bad news but I think it could have been worse.

just my opinion of course

p.s. If it was my budget I would have halved SW and jobseekers. Anyone who cant get a job is free to leave and find one elsewhere. This would have meant less of an impact on (most of) the public sector workers that actually contribute to the country.

frman

ste365 wrote: »

It seems to me that you are full of assumptions based on ignorance. A well educated way to discuss matters!!

I am saying that imo the budget was fair.

So discuss it, what was unfair about the budget content today ?

jackthekipper

ste365 wrote: »

It seems to me that you are full of assumptions based on ignorance. A well educated way to discuss matters!!

Seriously, what do you suggest doing, and what results would you expect form your suggestions. Everyone benefited form the boom in one way or another, right now the country is paying the price for the inability to look ahead and elect competent leaders. No amount of empty rhetoric will save that.

Drumpot

jackthekipper wrote: »

I know what an anology is, but why plaster a name at the bottom of a made up economist.

I just copied and pasted the email I got . .

You completely misunderstood the "moral of the story" and brought up the topic of those Nigerian viral emails, then questioned the author, which in itself highlighted the fact that it obviously went over your head . .

Neither are relevant to the point made . . :rolleyes:

ste365

frman wrote: »

remind me of the illegal activities that the individual bankers did again ?

Who said anything about illegal activities? Thats your assumption!

If I did my job incorrectly I would be held accountable. If it was done to the scale that these officials did then it should have cost them their positions.

It hasn't.

You throw in an argument of assumption that it was illegal what they did. Thats your idea that was nto created by me.

I just was accountability!!!

TokenWhite

ste365 wrote: »

How many of the banking officials or property developers have been held accountable for their actions in creating this mess.Not one has fallen to their knees yet.

America hunted many of them down. There is an example to show society.

A few bankers only represent a fraction of the wealthier classes, the majority of the upper classes are as innocent as the rest of us, and what is deemed morally wrong is not necassarily illegal, not entirely sure what the government could do, Yes something could have been implemented as a condition of the gaurantees or nama, but the budget is a seperate point, pointing fingers will not solve the current economic problems we have

Drumpot

ste365 wrote: »

How many of the banking officials or property developers have been held accountable for their actions in creating this mess.Not one has fallen to their knees yet.

America hunted many of them down. There is an example to show society.

I agree in principle (there are people who should be hung!) . .

But what has that got to do with the budget ? ?

frman

TokenWhite wrote: »

A few bankers only represent a fraction of the wealthier classes, the majority of the upper classes are as innocent as the rest of us, and what is deemed morally wrong is not necassarily illegal, not entirely sure what the government could do, Yes something could have been implemented as a condition of the gaurantees or nama, but the budget is a seperate point, pointing fingers will not solve the current economic problems we have

= sense.

stooge

frman wrote: »

remind me of the illegal activities that the individual bankers did again ?

Thats a different matter altogether. Finacial regulation was lax to say the least. In many countries what they did would have resulted in court and possibly jail time so don't play that card.

LEGALLY, what they did was 'acceptable'. MORALLY, what went on was downright despicable.

ste365

jackthekipper wrote: »

Seriously, what do you suggest doing, and what results would you expect form your suggestions. Everyone benefited form the boom in one way or another, right now the country is paying the price for the inability to look ahead and elect competent leaders. No amount of empty rhetoric will save that.

Expalin how everyone is paying the price when those responsible for causing this mess are still holding positions in the banks.

They were there when they caused the mess.
They are still holding postions there now!

Seriously!!

JUSTICE IS SOMETHNG WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY AND THE BUDGET TODAY!!!

THATS SERIOUS FOR YOU!

jackthekipper

Drumpot wrote: »

I just copied and pasted the email I got . .

You completely misunderstood the "moral of the story" and brought up the topic of those Nigerian viral emails, then questioned the author, which in itself highlighted the fact that it obviously went over your head . .

Neither are relevant to the point made . . :rolleyes:

I know what the moral of the story is and I don't agree with the empty rhetoric of tax the rich as some silver bullet, it's also a bit "rich people are cool".
Viral emails are a pet hate of mine as most of them are nonsense and alot of people believe them. A good analogy should stand on its own two legs, not need the name of a fake economist to lend some credibilty.

ste365

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree in principle (there are people who should be hung!) . .

But what has that got to do with the budget ? ?

It is more acceptable to accept cuts on a whole IF justice is seen to been carried out in this society.

Until the banking industry is cleaned out and people are held accountable for their actions in doing their jobs incorrectly then the cuts from this budget thrown at people who have not been resppnsible for causing this will be unacceptable.

Qs

Come on Ste, you no better than this. The rich get richer and poor get poorer, if the rich make mistakes its the poor who pay. Nothing will change through protests. If you want real change you need a revolution. Meet me outside Dáil Éireann in the morning, I'll bring the wood, you bring a massive blade and we'll build ourselves a guillotine.

Naz_st

jackthekipper wrote: »

Yeah, I'm one of them, basically don't believe everything you read in emails
Do 10% of Irish taxpayers pay 59% of the tax, if so then it is.

Well according to our very own Brian Lenihan in his budget speech today:
"Next year, almost half of income earners will pay no income tax and 4 per cent will pay almost half of the total yield"

frman

ste365 wrote: »

It is more acceptable to accept cuts on a whole IF justice is seen to been carried out in this society.

Until the banking industry is cleaned out and people are held accountable for their actions in doing their jobs incorrectly then the cuts from this budget thrown at people who have not been resppnsible for causing this will be unacceptable.

So what you're saying is that we should not address the financial situation and implement any cuts until some bankers lose their jobs ?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jackthekipper

Naz_st wrote: »

Well according to our very own Brian Lenihan in his budget speech today:
"Next year, almost half of income earners will pay no income tax and 4 per cent will pay almost half of the total yield"

And that shouldn't be, as I said I have a pet peeve for viral emails.

frman

Qs wrote: »

Come on Ste, you no better than this. The rich get richer and poor get poorer, if the rich make mistakes its the poor who pay. Nothing will change through protests. If you want real change you need a revolution. Meet me outside Dáil Éireann in the morning, I'll bring the wood, you bring a massive blade and we'll build ourselves a guillotine.

I have a pitchfork somewhere.

Drumpot

ste365 wrote: »

Expalin how everyone is paying the price when those responsible for causing this mess are still holding positions in the banks.

They were there when they caused the mess.
They are still holding postions there now!

Seriously!!

JUSTICE IS SOMETHNG WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY AND THE BUDGET TODAY!!!

THATS SERIOUS FOR YOU!

You are entitled to your opinions and I share your disgust and anger over the pain we are all paying for . .

But I always use this example to friends when trying to explain my position . .

If a person is shot and are bleeding to death on the side of the road.

The speed at which they receieve medical attention will decide how quickly they recover (or if they recover at all).

You need to put your resources into one of the main problems and need to decide which one is more important.

Do you work out who shot them while trying to fix them up?

or

Do you put all your resources into patching them up and then do an extensive investigation into their shooting once they have recouperated enough ?

I believe putting all our energies and resources into getting the country out of this hole is the foremost important thing for our government to sort out . .

The issue of accountability is vitally important for our own personal feeling of justice and is vitally important to be addressed, but AFTER we have got the country in order . . Getting blood now will only give us momentary personal satisfaction, it wont solve the most important problem which is fixing up our public finances . .

Sandvich

Drumpot wrote: »

Because most of us know that we need to take serious pain to get the country back on track . . .

Striking on the streets wont makeup 400mil a week . .

This budget should of been tougher in my opinion . .

Bull****. You don't cut your way out of a recession and this has been a common trend in recessions for a long time. But once the government go around calling these "tough decisions" gullible people and those bitter against welfare/public servants lap it up so they can feel like little superheroes taking a hit to save the economy, when in reality the opposite will happen since personal debt is a much bigger problem in Ireland than national debt.

ste365

frman wrote: »

I am saying that imo the budget was fair.

So discuss it, what was unfair about the budget content today ?

Whats unfair is that the people who didnt cause this mess are taking a hit without ANY justice happening to the people who were responsible for causing this mess. They are still holding their positions in banks.

Do you think that is fair? If people are seen to be held accountable then people will not have as much of a problem taking these hits.

JUSTICE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY.

A 500,000 SALARY CAP ON BANKING OFFICIALS POSITIONS IS A JOKE. FAIR ENOUGH IF THEY HAD CLEARED THE BANKS OUT. BUT THEY HAVN'T.

zootroid

ste365 wrote: »

Expalin how everyone is paying the price when those responsible for causing this mess are still holding positions in the banks.

They were there when they caused the mess.
They are still holding postions there now!

Seriously!!

JUSTICE IS SOMETHNG WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY AND THE BUDGET TODAY!!!

THATS SERIOUS FOR YOU!

WELL THEN START COMMENTING IN A THREAD ABOUT DODGY BANKERS!!!

You're ire is clearing reserved for the corrupt nature of FF, jobs for the boys, poorly regulated financial sector, and the greed of shady bankers. Why then are you ranting about the budget?

I don't think the budget is too bad, there are things I would have liked to have seen, but at least it's a hell of a lot better than previous FF budgets. Unless our expenditure is cut, we'll end up bankrupt. We'll be paying huge interest on our borrowings, and eventually we won't be able to borrow anymore. At last Lenihan has copped onto this.

Bandit12

frman wrote: »

The cuts weren't too bad imo.

What exactly would you be protesting about ?

You must be watching the wrong channel. The budget is shocking for the low and middle payed. The well off get away with murder yet again.

ste365

Drumpot wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinions and I share your disgust and anger over the pain we are all paying for . .

But I always use this example to friends when trying to explain my position . .

If a person is shot and are bleeding to death on the side of the road.

The speed at which they receieve medical attention will decide how quickly they recover (or if they recover at all).

You need to put your resources into one of the main problems and need to decide which one is more important.

Do you work out who shot them while trying to fix them up?

or

Do you put all your resources into patching them up and then do an extensive investigation into their shooting once they have recouperated enough ?

I believe putting all our energies and resources into getting the country out of this hole is the foremost important thing for our government to sort out . .

The issue of accountability is vitally important for our own personal feeling of justice and is vitally important to be addressed, but AFTER we have got the country in order . . Getting blood now will only give us momentary personal satisfaction, it wont solve the most important problem which is fixing up our public finances . .

Slow down.If a tree falls down it is a problem that starts at the roots.

The roots of this problem start at the banks. Not one thing has been done to rectify this situation. We the tax payers will be bailing the banks out.

That is our money they are using.

Patching up problems and then running about hoping a bigger fall wont cause a bigger problem is not the way forward.

Fix the banking industry and then deal with everything else.

Its a no brainer!

Shadowed

ste365 wrote: »

Anglo Irish is goign to need a further 6 billion next year. There is no provision for this in this budget.
Anyone who thinks this is a fair budget does not realise that the figures that have been dealt out in this budget are going to lead to an almighty bang in next years budget. Next years budget will be billions more in cuts than this one. If and when you have lost your job and are in touble financially then you will realise that this is no a fair budget.

I agree wholeheartedly. While people may be 'generally' happy with this budget, they are failing to realise what will come with 'progressive taxation' and a combined social insurance payment from next year. We will be throwing good money after bad into Anglo and the rest of them while servicing national debt at an extortionate interest rate for ions while the income tax base will be significantly raised in 2011. Also, I'm not a PS worker but I have sympathy for anyone on €30K taking a 5% cut and then more tax down the line. Also, will be interesting to see how the 'Irish domiciled' levy of €200K will be imposed! While the sentiment may be right it's a populist measure that will be impossible to implement under self assessment rules....... Typically short term thinking AGAIN.

vinylbomb

ste365 wrote: »

Until the banking industry is cleaned out and people are held accountable for their actions in doing their jobs incorrectly then the cuts from this budget thrown at people who have not been resppnsible for causing this will be unacceptable.

Their jobs were to make money for the banks. I would say they were more than correct in fulfilling their duty to their employer.

To the rest of us - morally reprehensible and dangerously shortsighted.


We can point fingers and shout "Blame" later. Theres no time for it now, fix the mess, put out the fire, use whatever analogy you want - it needs to be done first.

frman

Bandit12 wrote: »

You must be watching the wrong channel. The budget is shocking for the low and middle payed. The well off get away with murder yet again.

What are you talking about.

A 5% cut to ps salaries less than 30k is quite acceptable imo.

I thought it would have been more.

How much were you expecting low earners to pay, nothing ? Are you serious ?

vinylbomb

ste365 wrote: »

The roots of this problem start at the banks. Not one thing has been done to rectify this situation. We the tax payers will be bailing the banks out.

The root of this problem starts outside our banks. Once a cheap supply of credit dried up globally, then things hit the skids. Its not just our banking system that got hit by this - we got hit harder than most because we were leaning on an over-productive construction sector

ste365

zootroid wrote: »

WELL THEN START COMMENTING IN A THREAD ABOUT DODGY BANKERS!!!

You're ire is clearing reserved for the corrupt nature of FF, jobs for the boys, poorly regulated financial sector, and the greed of shady bankers. Why then are you ranting about the budget?

I don't think the budget is too bad, there are things I would have liked to have seen, but at least it's a hell of a lot better than previous FF budgets. Unless our expenditure is cut, we'll end up bankrupt. We'll be paying huge interest on our borrowings, and eventually we won't be able to borrow anymore. At last Lenihan has copped onto this.

Because the people who are taking the hit in the budget are doing so with no justice happenig in the banking industry. Which is where the root of the problems are.

ste365

vinylbomb wrote: »

The root of this problem starts outside our banks. Once a cheap supply of credit dried up globally, then things hit the skids. Its not just our banking system that got hit by this - we got hit harder than most because we were leaning on an over-productive construction sector

The construction industry was part of the chain. It was the banks offering 100% mortages etc.to cater for the inflated prices. End of the day nothing has been evidently been doen to sort these root proplems out which has led us to be in this situation.

IRLConor

ste365 wrote: »

Because the people who are taking the hit in the budget are doing so with no justice happenig in the banking industry.

I think you need to learn about the difference between the judiciary and the legislature.

If you want "justice" for the bankers you'd need to convict them of a crime. That happens in a court, not a budget.

siscri

ste365 wrote: »

Because the people who are taking the hit in the budget are doing so with no justice happenig in the banking industry. Which is where the root of the problems are.

What did you want to see happen? And I mean constructively now...not vague talk of justice. I'm just curious what practically you think should have been done?

PeakOutput

ste365 wrote: »

Are there people outside the Dail right now? We cannot accept this budget...the millionaires sit cozy in their homes having made their millions and now the lower classes are expected to pay back for something they never created or really benefitted from like the wealthy richer classes did during that celtic tiger. The cuts now will lead to even greater cuts in the future....this today is only the start!

god your full of ****

the entire country benefited from the boom the millionaires you talk about have paid more tax than you ever will(probably more tax in one year than you ever will)

ste365

Qs wrote: »

Come on Ste, you no better than this. The rich get richer and poor get poorer, if the rich make mistakes its the poor who pay. Nothing will change through protests. If you want real change you need a revolution. Meet me outside Dáil Éireann in the morning, I'll bring the wood, you bring a massive blade and we'll build ourselves a guillotine.

haha...nice of you to bring some humour to events! I know you were jesting but lets hope social unrest doen't happen. We could do without that.

ste365

IRLConor wrote: »

I think you need to learn about the difference between the judiciary and the legislature.

If you want "justice" for the bankers you'd need to convict them of a crime. That happens in a court, not a budget.

Apologies...not as educated as you in that area!

vinylbomb

ste365 wrote: »

It was the banks offering 100% mortages etc.to cater for the inflated prices.

So by this logic the purchaser of the mortgage has no responsibility to ensure they can repay the loan - the blame is squarely on the shoulders of the banks.

Thats ridiculous. I dont need to comment further on that score.

ste365 wrote: »

End of the day nothing has been evidently been doen to sort these root proplems out which has led us to be in this situation.

The root problem was a GLOBAL supply of cheap credit and financial deregulation - we were over reliant on the construction industry. The banks are only a part of a large failing in Ireland which includes government, legislature, lack of financial regulation (and foresight), county and city councils, large scale developers, and over-zealous end customers - ie Ordinary Joes.

How you can just blame it on bankers is beyond me.

ste365

PeakOutput wrote: »

god your full of ****

the entire country benefited from the boom the millionaires you talk about have paid more tax than you ever will(probably more tax in one year than you ever will)

They paid that level of tax because they earned it! Will they be struggling through the recession? Its the millionaires who made their money from the inflated property boom and banking irrugularities that i have issues with. Not with millionaires in general. Apologies if i was too sweeping with that statement!

Drumpot

ste365 wrote: »

Slow down.If a tree falls down it is a problem that starts at the roots.

The roots of this problem start at the banks. Not one thing has been done to rectify this situation. We the tax payers will be bailing the banks out.

That is our money they are using.

Patching up problems and then running about hoping a bigger fall wont cause a bigger problem is not the way forward.

Fix the banking industry and then deal with everything else.

Its a no brainer!

I respectfully completely disagree with this post . .

How long will it take to sort out the banks ?

You see, many people dont seem to understand that we need to make savings in our budget yesterday. Its not something that can be put off . .

You hear people saying . . Attack the spongers practising social welfare fraud . . Mean's test social welfare . . Etc etc . . But these all take time to implement. They should be certainly considered as a long term goal, but right now our country NEEDS to cut its costs as quickly as possible.

In april the quickest way to generate revenue through increased taxes. Now its about reducing our expenses to get more in line with our countries "wealth". .