Why are we not taking to the streets to protest at this?

ste365

zootroid wrote: »

WELL THEN START COMMENTING IN A THREAD ABOUT DODGY BANKERS!!!

You're ire is clearing reserved for the corrupt nature of FF, jobs for the boys, poorly regulated financial sector, and the greed of shady bankers. Why then are you ranting about the budget?

I don't think the budget is too bad, there are things I would have liked to have seen, but at least it's a hell of a lot better than previous FF budgets. Unless our expenditure is cut, we'll end up bankrupt. We'll be paying huge interest on our borrowings, and eventually we won't be able to borrow anymore. At last Lenihan has copped onto this.

Because the people who are taking the hit in the budget are doing so with no justice happenig in the banking industry. Which is where the root of the problems are.

ste365

vinylbomb wrote: »

The root of this problem starts outside our banks. Once a cheap supply of credit dried up globally, then things hit the skids. Its not just our banking system that got hit by this - we got hit harder than most because we were leaning on an over-productive construction sector

The construction industry was part of the chain. It was the banks offering 100% mortages etc.to cater for the inflated prices. End of the day nothing has been evidently been doen to sort these root proplems out which has led us to be in this situation.

IRLConor

ste365 wrote: »

Because the people who are taking the hit in the budget are doing so with no justice happenig in the banking industry.

I think you need to learn about the difference between the judiciary and the legislature.

If you want "justice" for the bankers you'd need to convict them of a crime. That happens in a court, not a budget.

siscri

ste365 wrote: »

Because the people who are taking the hit in the budget are doing so with no justice happenig in the banking industry. Which is where the root of the problems are.

What did you want to see happen? And I mean constructively now...not vague talk of justice. I'm just curious what practically you think should have been done?

PeakOutput

ste365 wrote: »

Are there people outside the Dail right now? We cannot accept this budget...the millionaires sit cozy in their homes having made their millions and now the lower classes are expected to pay back for something they never created or really benefitted from like the wealthy richer classes did during that celtic tiger. The cuts now will lead to even greater cuts in the future....this today is only the start!

god your full of ****

the entire country benefited from the boom the millionaires you talk about have paid more tax than you ever will(probably more tax in one year than you ever will)

ste365

Qs wrote: »

Come on Ste, you no better than this. The rich get richer and poor get poorer, if the rich make mistakes its the poor who pay. Nothing will change through protests. If you want real change you need a revolution. Meet me outside Dáil Éireann in the morning, I'll bring the wood, you bring a massive blade and we'll build ourselves a guillotine.

haha...nice of you to bring some humour to events! I know you were jesting but lets hope social unrest doen't happen. We could do without that.

ste365

IRLConor wrote: »

I think you need to learn about the difference between the judiciary and the legislature.

If you want "justice" for the bankers you'd need to convict them of a crime. That happens in a court, not a budget.

Apologies...not as educated as you in that area!

vinylbomb

ste365 wrote: »

It was the banks offering 100% mortages etc.to cater for the inflated prices.

So by this logic the purchaser of the mortgage has no responsibility to ensure they can repay the loan - the blame is squarely on the shoulders of the banks.

Thats ridiculous. I dont need to comment further on that score.

ste365 wrote: »

End of the day nothing has been evidently been doen to sort these root proplems out which has led us to be in this situation.

The root problem was a GLOBAL supply of cheap credit and financial deregulation - we were over reliant on the construction industry. The banks are only a part of a large failing in Ireland which includes government, legislature, lack of financial regulation (and foresight), county and city councils, large scale developers, and over-zealous end customers - ie Ordinary Joes.

How you can just blame it on bankers is beyond me.

ste365

PeakOutput wrote: »

god your full of ****

the entire country benefited from the boom the millionaires you talk about have paid more tax than you ever will(probably more tax in one year than you ever will)

They paid that level of tax because they earned it! Will they be struggling through the recession? Its the millionaires who made their money from the inflated property boom and banking irrugularities that i have issues with. Not with millionaires in general. Apologies if i was too sweeping with that statement!

Drumpot

ste365 wrote: »

Slow down.If a tree falls down it is a problem that starts at the roots.

The roots of this problem start at the banks. Not one thing has been done to rectify this situation. We the tax payers will be bailing the banks out.

That is our money they are using.

Patching up problems and then running about hoping a bigger fall wont cause a bigger problem is not the way forward.

Fix the banking industry and then deal with everything else.

Its a no brainer!

I respectfully completely disagree with this post . .

How long will it take to sort out the banks ?

You see, many people dont seem to understand that we need to make savings in our budget yesterday. Its not something that can be put off . .

You hear people saying . . Attack the spongers practising social welfare fraud . . Mean's test social welfare . . Etc etc . . But these all take time to implement. They should be certainly considered as a long term goal, but right now our country NEEDS to cut its costs as quickly as possible.

In april the quickest way to generate revenue through increased taxes. Now its about reducing our expenses to get more in line with our countries "wealth". .

PeakOutput

ste365 wrote: »

They paid that level of tax because they earned it! Will they be struggling through the recession? Its the millionaires who made their money from the inflated property boom and banking irrugularities that i have issues with. Not with millionaires in general. Apologies if i was too sweeping with that statement!

regardless of were they got their money from(leaving aside drug dealing or whatever) these millionaires have all paid their taxes(in theory) they pay (for the millionth time without responce) 77% of our countries taxes there is no more room to increase that.

public sector workers,even the blindly delusional ones posting in this thread, were being paid great salaries because 16%(i think it could be 19%) of our tax bill was coming from the property industry that was as you say inflated. that industry is not there anymore and neither is the 16% of taxes. therefore what we pay out needs to be reduced immedietely. public sector wages need to be reduced immedietely, they have been, social welfare needs to be reduced immedietely, it has been. there is no argument to the contrary. NONE


even if i concede that there are inequalities in our system(which i dont) the time for fixing them is not now its when we have our deficit resolved and are not at risk of having a bankrupt country

pod_021

Hi guys, i'm currently on the job seekers allowance and i'm aiming to become a sole trader after the new year so that i can start to contribute a bit more. Is there any initiative schemes for people registering themselves as a sole trader?

Interyurauldone

First of all, I am a private sector accountant, who is 20% down on income (ex-levies) from what I currently should be earning. However, I have a great sympathy with the harder working members of our PS and I'll tell you why.

For me the government has ignored the elephant in the room for the last 10 years and in doing so has failed to reform the PS. In the budget of 2010 they implement generic pay cuts as a means of bringing PS pay back to "private sector levels". This is a ridiculous way of solving our problems.

It's quiet clear that what we need to do is to strip the inefficiency from our workforce out. Head receptionists earning €75k a year in our hospitals, Porters earning up to €50k, revenue staff members only having 3days work to do but getting paid for 5, Kitchen, cleaning and Porters getting bonus payments for working weekends, Electricians getting €120 to change a light bulb?? This is sinful waste; this is what has to stop.

A generic pay cut only serves to demotivate even further the hardworking and highly skilled members of our PS workforce. The pay is not the high level issue it's the waste and the clear lack of KPI's (Key performance Indicators) which is making our PS even more inefficient. I would be disgusted tonight if I was a nurse, physio, radiographer etc etc.

We are all well aware of the need to cut €1.3 to €2 billion off our annual national debt but generic pay cuts are the lazy, unimaginative and quiet simply the wrong option.

What's going to happen next? I'll tell you what; absenteeism in the PS is going to increase with the PS workers taking full advantage of 7 paid sick days. It’s inevitable that an attitude of “well if their screwing me I’ll screw them” is going to creep in.

Today is not a day to jump on the PS’s woes but is a day to lament our incompetent government.

Mr. Cowen and Mr. Lenihan are pursuing the short-term gain for long term pain route as opposed to a short term pain for long term gain. It’s inevitable that this approach will require further adjusting measures in the future.

Do we have the skill set in government to deal with the Irish mess?

PeakOutput

interyerauldone

i completely agree as far as reform goes but that is at least a 2 year process we need cuts now


i completely agree this goverment should be lynched for their performance over the last 10 years but even so this budget was necessary weatehr it was ff or fg or labour(god forbid) who had to bring it in.

i seriously seriously hope the goverment implements massive reform( adn for me that includes redundancies and probably further pay cuts in certain areas along with pay increases in certain areas)

Qs

Interyurauldone wrote: »

First of all, I am a private sector accountant, who is 20% down on income (ex-levies) from what I currently should be earning. However, I have a great sympathy with the harder working members of our PS and I'll tell you why.

For me the government has ignored the elephant in the room for the last 10 years and in doing so has failed to reform the PS. In the budget of 2010 they implement generic pay cuts as a means of bringing PS pay back to "private sector levels". This is a ridiculous way of solving our problems.

It's quiet clear that what we need to do is to strip the inefficiency from our workforce out. Head receptionists earning €75k a year in our hospitals, Porters earning up to €50k, revenue staff members only having 3days work to do but getting paid for 5, Kitchen, cleaning and Porters getting bonus payments for working weekends, Electricians getting €120 to change a light bulb?? This is sinful waste; this is what has to stop.

A generic pay cut only serves to demotivate even further the hardworking and highly skilled members of our PS workforce. The pay is not the high level issue it's the waste and the clear lack of KPI's (Key performance Indicators) which is making our PS even more inefficient. I would be disgusted tonight if I was a nurse, physio, radiographer etc etc.

We are all well aware of the need to cut €1.3 to €2 billion off our annual national debt but generic pay cuts are the lazy, unimaginative and quiet simply the wrong option.

What's going to happen next? I'll tell you what; absenteeism in the PS is going to increase with the PS workers taking full advantage of 7 paid sick days. It’s inevitable that an attitude of “well if their screwing me I’ll screw them” is going to creep in.

Today is not a day to jump on the PS’s woes but is a day to lament our incompetent government.

Mr. Cowen and Mr. Lenihan are pursuing the short-term gain for long term pain route as opposed to a short term pain for long term gain. It’s inevitable that this approach will require further adjusting measures in the future.

Do we have the skill set in government to deal with the Irish mess?

This is all spot on. However hold back some of your sympathy because the PS unions have created this situation and the unions are only as strong as their members.

vinylbomb

Interyurauldone wrote: »

First of all, I am a private sector accountant, who is 20% down on income (ex-levies) from what I currently should be earning. However, I have a great sympathy with the harder working members of our PS and I'll tell you why.

For me the government has ignored the elephant in the room for the last 10 years and in doing so has failed to reform the PS. In the budget of 2010 they implement generic pay cuts as a means of bringing PS pay back to "private sector levels". This is a ridiculous way of solving our problems.

It's quiet clear that what we need to do is to strip the inefficiency from our workforce out. Head receptionists earning €75k a year in our hospitals, Porters earning up to €50k, revenue staff members only having 3days work to do but getting paid for 5, Kitchen, cleaning and Porters getting bonus payments for working weekends, Electricians getting €120 to change a light bulb?? This is sinful waste; this is what has to stop.

A generic pay cut only serves to demotivate even further the hardworking and highly skilled members of our PS workforce. The pay is not the high level issue it's the waste and the clear lack of KPI's (Key performance Indicators) which is making our PS even more inefficient. I would be disgusted tonight if I was a nurse, physio, radiographer etc etc.

We are all well aware of the need to cut €1.3 to €2 billion off our annual national debt but generic pay cuts are the lazy, unimaginative and quiet simply the wrong option.

What's going to happen next? I'll tell you what; absenteeism in the PS is going to increase with the PS workers taking full advantage of 7 paid sick days. It’s inevitable that an attitude of “well if their screwing me I’ll screw them” is going to creep in.

Today is not a day to jump on the PS’s woes but is a day to lament our incompetent government.

Mr. Cowen and Mr. Lenihan are pursuing the short-term gain for long term pain route as opposed to a short term pain for long term gain. It’s inevitable that this approach will require further adjusting measures in the future.

Do we have the skill set in government to deal with the Irish mess?

+1 - I'm in complete agreement.

However, the government are bollixed in respect of trying to get this sorted, because the unions protect the inefficient members with a permanent work-to-rule policy. It requires a change in mindset from the staff with the PS to change this, the government can set whatever targets they wish in order to reform, but complicit agreement between inefficient workers will mean the reforms are never met. While I am loath to put blame on good, hardworking members of the PS they shouldnt allow their colleagues to get away with it.

Put this way - if I had to pick up my colleagues workload I wouldn't take it, I'd give them a few chances but if it became routine I'd pull both them and management up on it. This is the attitude that needs to spread in the PS too.

byhookorbycrook

How is it fair that a public servant on €30,000 loses 5% and a private worker on €30,000 loses nothing???

vinylbomb

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

How is it fair that a public servant on €30,000 loses 5% and a private worker on €30,000 loses nothing???

Because a Public Sector worker has a pensions and benefits that were not measured in benchmarking - hence their employment contract is worth significantly more than the 30,000 they get each year.
It is simply redressing the balance of an unfair benchmarking system.

PeakOutput

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

How is it fair that a public servant on €30,000 loses 5% and a private worker on €30,000 loses nothing???

here it is simply laid out for you so a donkey could understand it

private worker has probably already either had a pay cut or pay freeze(if not their company is doing very well and the workers deserve everything they have)

private sector worker could lose their job at any moment

private sector worker on 30K either has no pension or one vastly vastly inferior to the ps's

public sector worker has no chance(yet) of losing their job

ps worker has a great pension

and the most important one ..wait for it its complicated, the ps workers company(the goverment) does not have the money to pay them 30K anymore

Fighting Irish

freewheeler wrote: »

Unfortunately as can be seen from some of the replies here the Irish people are only too willing to march blindly behind these goons running the country..and therin lies the root of all our woes....

What else can you do? OK lets kick FF out of the Dail, then what?

frman

frman wrote: »

This budget isnt paying for NAMA or the banks.

It is to correct our current defecit.

, which would be a whole lot less if we didn't pump money into a zombie bank..clown

Semistatebody

Amongst the people strongly affected in the social welfare, are the under 25's; of which I am a part.

I was 16 when the Celtic Tiger was peeking and the country was enjoying its glorious rewards with promises from all the banks and corporations of jobs, lifetime careers, pensions and educational opportunities. I remember because in school Ireland was promoted to herald an era of success and employment confidently led by the constant Job Fairs at the RDS and Croke Park to name but two. Now upon completing my basic education I was able to successfully seed myself in this 'Oasis of Prosperity and Growth' even earning a decent salary for my hard work allowing me the opportunity for some life-plans and aspirations. However, I never got the oportunity to hop on the property ladder or indeed expand my career options. Because by the time I could realistically think of buying a home, the prices had risen to astronomical proportions. Luckily enough I had enough common sense not to apply for any 120% mortgages, albeit it was tempting given the promises at the time. Now as luck would continue to reign, I was made redundant in June of this year; being a happy member of an extremely declining industry.

The point/question I would like to really raise is, why am I being punished for the mistakes of the banks and government? I have paid my taxes dutifully as set out to this point, I've lost my job because of something I was never even a part of and my welfare payments are being cut because the individuals who made the decisions that led the country into ruin continue to reign in prosperity. I havent been given the opportunity I was promised in the first place! And it was their mistake; merely for ever offering the outlandish services. Or the excessive spending on trivial public projects.... not to mention the embezzlement accusations that have permeated our media over the years. I believe, is that its not the responsibility of the common-person working within the system to analyse and predict growth patterns and interest rates and stimulii programs or to forecast economical changes. It is the banks responsibility and fault, fundamentally, for offering something which they always knew could not bare fruit. It was like juggling knives on a tight rope while people tossed rocks at you. Except the government has given them a platform and shield to stand on with their profits from ill-made decisions intact. It is the governments responsibility to oversee and regulate every financial institution and this is what they have failed in the most. As well as not looking out for the driving force of any economy, the low to middle income households.

IRLConor

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

How is it fair that a public servant on €30,000 loses 5% and a private worker on €30,000 loses nothing???

Cut private sector pay: net loss to the exchequer
Cut public sector pay: net gain to the exchequer

Simple really.

Sandvich

Interyurauldone wrote: »

First of all, I am a private sector accountant, who is 20% down on income (ex-levies) from what I currently should be earning. However, I have a great sympathy with the harder working members of our PS and I'll tell you why.

For me the government has ignored the elephant in the room for the last 10 years and in doing so has failed to reform the PS. In the budget of 2010 they implement generic pay cuts as a means of bringing PS pay back to "private sector levels". This is a ridiculous way of solving our problems.

It's quiet clear that what we need to do is to strip the inefficiency from our workforce out. Head receptionists earning €75k a year in our hospitals, Porters earning up to €50k, revenue staff members only having 3days work to do but getting paid for 5, Kitchen, cleaning and Porters getting bonus payments for working weekends, Electricians getting €120 to change a light bulb?? This is sinful waste; this is what has to stop.

A generic pay cut only serves to demotivate even further the hardworking and highly skilled members of our PS workforce. The pay is not the high level issue it's the waste and the clear lack of KPI's (Key performance Indicators) which is making our PS even more inefficient. I would be disgusted tonight if I was a nurse, physio, radiographer etc etc.

We are all well aware of the need to cut €1.3 to €2 billion off our annual national debt but generic pay cuts are the lazy, unimaginative and quiet simply the wrong option.

What's going to happen next? I'll tell you what; absenteeism in the PS is going to increase with the PS workers taking full advantage of 7 paid sick days. It’s inevitable that an attitude of “well if their screwing me I’ll screw them” is going to creep in.

Today is not a day to jump on the PS’s woes but is a day to lament our incompetent government.

Mr. Cowen and Mr. Lenihan are pursuing the short-term gain for long term pain route as opposed to a short term pain for long term gain. It’s inevitable that this approach will require further adjusting measures in the future.

Do we have the skill set in government to deal with the Irish mess?

I agree. There's all this WHERE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GET THE MONEY FROM THEN. Well, here. Everything is so badly optimised and run that that's probably where most of the money is going to to begin with. Why has next to no effort been made to tackle that waste?

"Tough" decisions my arse.

Pete4779

jackthekipper wrote: »

Yeah, I'm one of them, basically don't believe everything you read in emails
Do 10% of Irish taxpayers pay 59% of the tax, if so then it is.

I pay 59.5% in taxes on everything over ~ €30k, in the public sector. Coupled with the new salary cuts, at the very least, Lenihan made the decision for me to emigrate easier.

prinz

Semistatebody wrote: »

Amongst the people strongly affected in the social welfare, are the under 25's; of which I am a part.

I was 16 when the Celtic Tiger was peeking and the country was enjoying its glorious rewards with promises from all the banks and corporations of jobs, lifetime careers, pensions and educational opportunities. I remember because in school Ireland was promoted to herald an era of success and employment confidently led by the constant Job Fairs at the RDS and Croke Park to name but two. Now upon completing my basic education I was able to successfully seed myself in this 'Oasis of Prosperity and Growth' even earning a decent salary for my hard work allowing me the opportunity for some life-plans and aspirations. However, I never got the oportunity to hop on the property ladder or indeed expand my career options. Because by the time I could realistically think of buying a home, the prices had risen to astronomical proportions. Luckily enough I had enough common sense not to apply for any 120% mortgages, albeit it was tempting given the promises at the time. Now as luck would continue to reign, I was made redundant in June of this year; being a happy member of an extremely declining industry..

You never got the chance to expand your career options? Why is that... perhaps because you left school with big €€'s for eyes and couldn't be bothered furthering your education? You're still under 25, why were you "realistically thinking" of buying a home That is what has us in this mess. Everyone out to make a quick buck with no forethought for the future.

PeakOutput

Marcc wrote: »

, which would be a whole lot less if we didn't pump money into a zombie bank..clown

the money given to the banks has nothing to do with the goverments day to day spending you do realise that dont you? and if you dont why are you commenting?

frman

Marcc wrote: »

, which would be a whole lot less if we didn't pump money into a zombie bank..clown

sorry can you clarify if that "clown" remark was directed at me ?

I just want to be sure.

Semistatebody

prinz wrote: »

You never got the chance to expand your career options? Why is that... perhaps because you left school with big €€'s for eyes and couldn't be bothered furthering your education? You're still under 25, why were you "realistically thinking" of buying a home That is what has us in this mess. Everyone out to make a quick buck with no forethought for the future.

Who do you think gave me the big €€'s for eyes????? Nice and easy to say if your in a private sector high pay grade who had the experience of a reccession to learn from... but no worries, I will gladly bleed the country for an education NOW and go to some lovely foreign shores in order to boost their economy.

smurgen

siscri wrote: »

What did you want to see happen? And I mean constructively now...not vague talk of justice. I'm just curious what practically you think should have been done?

the entire heads of banks and the boards cleaned out to restore global confidence in ireland from a capital markets perception.this would make ireland appear a sound investment and therefore i would cost us less to borrow.i believe the bankers are to blame.i DO have an undergrad degree in finance and a financial economics masters so i feel as if i have a good knowledge of the banking crisis and it's role in irelands current recession.feel free to challenge me if you want.