Why are we not taking to the streets to protest at this?

vinylbomb

Marcc wrote: »

, which would be a whole lot less if we didn't pump money into a zombie bank..clown

NAMA is completely unrelated to the budget deficit.................sorry Krusty

LookBehindYou

I am not a public servant, but i think that its not fair to be taking 5% off people in the public service who earn less than 30000 euro.
i am sure there are people on the dole much better off.

The_Conductor

IRLConor wrote: »

Cut private sector pay: net loss to the exchequer
Cut public sector pay: net gain to the exchequer

Simple really.

Not entirely true.
By reducing the pay of those in the public sector on 30k by 5%- you increase the number of people eligible for medical cards and Family Income support by 6%.......

Our social welfare entitlements are such- that it doesn't take a big cut in salary for a vast swathe of the populace, to qualify for social welfare assistance of one type or another.

Semistatebody

Semistatebody wrote: »

Amongst the people strongly affected in the social welfare, are the under 25's; of which I am a part.

I was 16 when the Celtic Tiger was peeking and the country was enjoying its glorious rewards with promises from all the banks and corporations of jobs, lifetime careers, pensions and educational opportunities. I remember because in school Ireland was promoted to herald an era of success and employment confidently led by the constant Job Fairs at the RDS and Croke Park to name but two. Now upon completing my basic education I was able to successfully seed myself in this 'Oasis of Prosperity and Growth' even earning a decent salary for my hard work allowing me the opportunity for some life-plans and aspirations. However, I never got the oportunity to hop on the property ladder or indeed expand my career options. Because by the time I could realistically think of buying a home, the prices had risen to astronomical proportions. Luckily enough I had enough common sense not to apply for any 120% mortgages, albeit it was tempting given the promises at the time. Now as luck would continue to reign, I was made redundant in June of this year; being a happy member of an extremely declining industry.

The point/question I would like to really raise is, why am I being punished for the mistakes of the banks and government? I have paid my taxes dutifully as set out to this point, I've lost my job because of something I was never even a part of and my welfare payments are being cut because the individuals who made the decisions that led the country into ruin continue to reign in prosperity. I havent been given the opportunity I was promised in the first place! And it was their mistake; merely for ever offering the outlandish services. Or the excessive spending on trivial public projects.... not to mention the embezzlement accusations that have permeated our media over the years. I believe, is that its not the responsibility of the common-person working within the system to analyse and predict growth patterns and interest rates and stimulii programs or to forecast economical changes. It is the banks responsibility and fault, fundamentally, for offering something which they always knew could not bare fruit. It was like juggling knives on a tight rope while people tossed rocks at you. Except the government has given them a platform and shield to stand on with their profits from ill-made decisions intact. It is the governments responsibility to oversee and regulate every financial institution and this is what they have failed in the most. As well as not looking out for the driving force of any economy, the low to middle income households.

From the sounds of it you have no commitments. What are you complaining about? The country can't afford to keep paying out what it is paying - simple as. The 4 billion saved this budget just about offsets the 4 billion we're paying in INTEREST next year.

Do you think we should borrow/tax people until the country is so crippled that there is literally ZERO money to hand out in Social Welfare?

We needed cuts, and we'll need even more next year. My honest advice to you - as someone who is in almost the same situation - go back to school/retrain as something. Don't sit around for the next few years complaining about your dole being cut, it's not going to look good on your CV.

smccarrick

smccarrick wrote: »

Not entirely true.
By reducing the pay of those in the public sector on 30k by 5%- you increase the number of people eligible for medical cards and Family Income support by 6%.......

Our social welfare entitlements are such- that it doesn't take a big cut in salary for a vast swathe of the populace, to qualify for social welfare assistance of one type or another.

That's actually an extremely valid point. Of course there wouldn't be as many due to two-income households(from experience alot of PubS workers end up with other PubS workers)/single people.

prinz

Semistatebody wrote: »

Who do you think gave me the big €€'s for eyes????? Nice and easy to say if your in a private sector high pay grade who had the experience of a reccession to learn from... but no worries, I will gladly bleed the country for an education NOW and go to some lovely foreign shores in order to boost their economy.

Er, you did. Easy to say? How's this, I'm 25, and on €21k a year. Do you know why? Because when I left school I, despite all the people telling me to go into construction or get a trade "because that's where the money is", I went to college, after college I thought to myself, two qualifications are better than one, so now I am training in a second profession. So while my mates were buying flatscreens, renting top apartments, holidays to Tahiti etc, I was back in Dublin renting a room, living on a budget and within my means, earning a shíte wage but getting value for money. I have no pity for anyone who took the easy route.

PeakOutput

Semistatebody wrote: »

Who do you think gave me the big €€'s for eyes????? Nice and easy to say if your in a private sector high pay grade who had the experience of a reccession to learn from... but no worries, I will gladly bleed the country for an education NOW and go to some lovely foreign shores in order to boost their economy.

well you will be paying 700euro more for it a year just like i am so at least we get something out of ye

Setantaanfear

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Its not about taking a cut! During the celtic tiger, the government were too generous and now are cutting back.

Don't see why we should punish the millionaires - they aren't the ones who are paying low tax or claiming social welfare.

Sure you aren't a TD?

Yeah they sure are generous when it comes to themselves!

Let's see! Um Over 100'000 a year and they want everyone else to take the pressure.

If they were truely sincere they would bring all wages/salaries down to around the average industrial wage until this mess is sorted out.

How many on the mb travel to work and get paid for it? How many have had to say over in a B&B etc and got paid for it? I was self employed for over 10 years and never once did I ever get travel money or money to pay for B&Bs etc. I had to pay it all out of my own pocket.

These TDs get an allowance just for walking through the gates of Lienster House. Imagine if every employee in the country were to get an allowance over and above their wages just for turning up at their job! disgusting. Jackie Healy Rea gets a travel allowance to go from kerry to Dublin and yet he travels free. How disgusting is that. He said as long as it is being paid he will take it.

I listened to FG, Labour and SF all going on about how this going to affect the less well off in our society (and that is correct). But not one of them suggested that all TDs and top civil servants take a drastic cut in their wages to help get us out of the hole we are in.

People are claiming social welfare because they have lost their jobs. I take it you are in a job and can theirfore feel superior to those on the dole. If I were on the dole having worked all my life and paid my taxes I would be entitled to it. The vast majority of people are on the dole because of the Banks and major investors who the FF Government let run riot with the country's economy.

They Fu*k up the country and we bail them out!

I don't believe people should role over for this. They should be standing up and demanding that if the dole is to be cut by 50 per cent then top pay civil servants, TDs etc should have their wages cut by at least 50 per cent.

The millonaires should be paying more tax. After all they made their millions through all the tax breaks etc they were given. It is time for them to give something back.

siscri

smurgen wrote: »

the entire heads of banks and the boards cleaned out to restore global confidence in ireland from a capital markets perception.this would make ireland appear a sound investment and therefore i would cost us less to borrow.i believe the bankers are to blame.i DO have an undergrad degree in finance and a financial economics masters so i feel as if i have a good knowledge of the banking crisis and it's role in irelands current recession.feel free to challenge me if you want.

Not challenging you...just trying to understand another side of it.
Clear them out how? In what way? And who would replace them that would provide global confidence?

vinylbomb

Setantaanfear wrote: »

Sure you aren't a TD?
I was self employed for over 10 years and never once did I ever get travel money or money to pay for B&Bs etc. I had to pay it all out of my own pocket.

If this is true then you were either badly financially advised, or simply unaware of how to run your company.

All self-employed workers that are running their own company in Ireland are entitled to vouched expenses.

The_Honeybadger

Now we know why the government have spent the last six months turning the general public against the public sector. What a wallop for the public sector, and they wont get an ounce of sympathy. Im well able to kick our public service but personally I think cutting 5% off someone earning 25k is well out of order. Apart from that I think this budget was ok, no real surprises and the cutbacks elsewhere were sensible.

Semistatebody

prinz wrote: »

Er, you did. Easy to say? How's this, I'm 25, and on €21k a year. Do you know why? Because when I left school I, despite all the people telling me to go into construction or get a trade "because that's where the money is", I went to college, after college I thought to myself, two qualifications are better than one, so now I am training in a second profession. So while my mates were buying flatscreens, renting top apartments, holidays to Tahiti etc, I was back in Dublin renting a room, living on a budget and within my means, earning a shíte wage but getting value for money. I have no pity for anyone who took the easy route.

Hang on, who are you to say anyone took an easy route?! There is no such thing.... by starting in a company young and earlyI GAINED experience and qualifications through my employer, so I resent you claiming I had it easy... while you were in College having your bottom wiped by the proffesors I was earning with the help of all the others 'who took the easy route' the money paying for the facilities you were using. And plenty of you fantastic dual-graduates are in the same boat as me so dont count your chickens yet, your employer may be hit too(granted I dont know anything about you). I do hope you know what it feels like to be in a jobseeker benefit line in a post office some day. And have that same smart attitude you are giving me given to you for claiming something that is your right to.

But like you said and I mentioned before you, I will retrain and gladly pay the 700eur so that I may leave and work in an economy that can sustain iself for longer that 10years.

c_meth

Having read several threads on this topic the obvious conclusion that can be drawn is that those who weren't affected think it was a fair budget and those that were affected think it wasn't.

And also that there a lot of very uninformed posters around (usually identifiable by the adversarial nature of their postings)

I've never seen such a gang of me-feiners...

Setantaanfear

vinylbomb wrote: »

If this is true then you were either badly financially advised, or simply unaware of how to run your company.

All self-employed workers that are running their own company in Ireland are entitled to vouched expenses.

Where did you get this?

The only thing self employed people, especially the small ones, is some tax offset against their expenses. And it comes nowhere near covering what it costs. Unlike your fellow TDs who not only get expenses but over and above without "vouchers".

They are greedy and you defend them.

Why can't you be honest and tell us you are either a TD or a wannabe son/daughter of one!

BTW I ran my company very well. It wasn't financial problems that forced me to change the work I did but an industrial accident.

I work and pay my taxes. I just can't stand the greed of these TDs. Telling everyone else to take the burdens and yet they are all making over 100,000 a year! The budget will not affect them with their 5 per cent cuts.

westtip

OP we shoudl be taking to the streets to celebrate and let off fire crackers the government has finally woken up.

irish_bob

frman wrote: »

The cuts weren't too bad imo.

What exactly would you be protesting about ?

i would have liked to have seen the old age pension cut , its far too generous when you add on all the other various perks but at the same time , i dont blame any finance minister for not touching this one with a barge pole

Semistatebody

c_meth wrote: »

Having read several threads on this topic the obvious conclusion that can be drawn is that those who weren't affected think it was a fair budget and those that were affected think it wasn't.

And also that there a lot of very uninformed posters around (usually identifiable by the adversarial nature of their postings)

I've never seen such a gang of me-feiners...

TBH for your first post (that flames uninformed me-feiners)..... You've proven yourself to be very comprehensive too. My compliments.

irish_bob

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Its not about taking a cut! During the celtic tiger, the government were too generous and now are cutting back.

Don't see why we should punish the millionaires - they aren't the ones who are paying low tax or claiming social welfare.

+1 , had the goverment not ramped up spending on social wellfare to such a degree and raised public sector wages to such a redicolous degree also this past number of years , thier would be no need to reduce either today

irish_bob

snickerpuss wrote: »

There were people outside the Dáil from about 1 and at the moment (I'm on Kildare St) I can hear protesters shouting, don't think there are very many though!

members of the SWP featuring richard boyd barrett no doubt , not as if those guys need a budget to protest

byhookorbycrook

vinylbomb wrote: »

Because a Public Sector worker has a pensions and benefits that were not measured in benchmarking - hence their employment contract is worth significantly more than the 30,000 they get each year.
It is simply redressing the balance of an unfair benchmarking system.

Incorrect ,pensions and benefits were factored in for primary teachers, anyhow.Anybody I know in private sector has not been paying a compulsory pension from age 21.

irish_bob

ste365 wrote: »

Protesting at the injustice of the way the government treats the less well off in this country.
How many of the bankers involved in creating this mess have been held accountable...not one! Look at America who managed to find out some of the main players who were corrupt with billions of dollars....Mandoff was brought be held accountable...the Irish government has not tightened their net on catching these people....had their been evidence of this happening then at least some sort of justice was being achieved and people would say fair enough. The same people in positions across the banking secotor are still hlding positions in the banks....how can this be. How can the government take less % pay cuts than the lower classes. How can the government allow a 500,000 pay for banking officials...after all they have done the same people who were in positionsin the banking industry still hold positions and receive their huge salaries.

You seem lucky to be in a position where the cuts obviously are not going to destory your position in Irish society. Some of us are less lucky.
A good example of the way people are treated in this country is shown by the man last Saturday who was put in a police car....driven to Mountjoy Jail and put into jail for not paying for a 12.50 dog license....someone with a bit of kop on released him at 10pm that night. This man lives on his own after being homeless and got a dog to keep him company from the animal rescue centre. The man has noone in life and was not looked out for by the people who rule this country. He was sent to jail for a 12.50 licesne fee!

This is outrageous and is an example of the way the rulers of this country deal with the poeple. Those with their millions are protected. Those who have little or nothing are walkeed all over by the state.

There in no justice being shown in this country in so many areas anymore.

Thats what we should be protesting about.

americans might be good at holding bankers accountable but they dont have anywhere near as generous of a wellfare state as we do

Matthew712

Did the 10th man leave the country?
or was he at the funeral of his son who was beaten to death by the son of one of the others who felt he was a over pay rich bastard in the first place?

The_Honeybadger

irish_bob wrote: »

+1 , had the goverment not ramped up spending on social wellfare to such a degree and raised public sector wages to such a redicolous degree also this past number of years , thier would be no need to reduce either today

I think another point to add to this is that the government want to make the PS a little less attractive to people, our brightest and best school leavers will be filling out their CAOs soon and at the moment the only sensible option is nursing teaching or some other PS focused study (see article below). It is not good for an economy to have one sector of society with the highest wages, best job security and conditions, best pension etc etc. Gov today addressed two of these (pay & pensions for new entrants). The public service had become far too attractive for our smartest and best young people, who would be wasted in the PS. It would be impossible to build this smart economy the gov aspires to with a nation of unemployed teachers & nurses. Personally I think they should waive the 1500 euro registration fee and give a maintenance top up to students undertaking science, I.T. and other such courses to encourage study in these areas. Obviously they wanted to cut costs too but this is an added bonus, the 1+ billion they will save in cuts would have been easier found somewhere else, I can see a massive backlash for the 5% for up to 30k in particular. Some will no doubt think Im being ridiculous but anybody agree with this viewpoint?

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/03/22/story40395.asp

irish_bob

ste365 wrote: »

Expalin how everyone is paying the price when those responsible for causing this mess are still holding positions in the banks.

They were there when they caused the mess.
They are still holding postions there now!

Seriously!!

JUSTICE IS SOMETHNG WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY AND THE BUDGET TODAY!!!

THATS SERIOUS FOR YOU!

the MESS as you and so many now refer to = a reduced standard of living for everyone , this is inevitable as the past five or six years was a fantasy based on an unsustainable property and credit bubble , providing the proper corrections are made which involved reducing wages BTW , this country will still be a very decent place to live , we dont have to zimbabwe and we wont as long as vested interests and petulant strikers are not supported by the majority

dunny1975

Why don't all public servants stop paying their mortgages. Our money is going to off developers mortgages to bail out the zombie banks that caused the problems. If this cripples all the rest of the banks so be it, they can evict all 300,000 of us and then the government would be in a right mess. Love the way the public service is always picking up the pieces.

TCP/IP_King

frman wrote: »

This budget isnt paying for NAMA or the banks.

It is to correct our current defecit.

Oh yes it is - a source at random ...

"Now we see the Government truckling to an utterly discredited AIB board, despite having pumped €3.5bn into the bank and unconditionally guaranteed its deposits."

lmimmfn

my wife is down 5% but this is the best budget in years and much much better than what we expected it to be, pretty fair all around and should sort out a lot of the confidence in the economy here.

PeakOutput

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Oh yes it is - a source at random ...

"Now we see the Government truckling to an utterly discredited AIB board, despite having pumped €3.5bn into the bank and unconditionally guaranteed its deposits."

the bank guarantee and nama are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

Sandvich

You know if people DON'T protest it means the government are under less pressure to make the best decisions. That's what really gets me about this.

irish_bob

mickeyk wrote: »

I think another point to add to this is that the government want to make the PS a little less attractive to people, our brightest and best school leavers will be filling out their CAOs soon and at the moment the only sensible option is nursing teaching or some other PS focused study (see article below). It is not good for an economy to have one sector of society with the highest wages, best job security and conditions, best pension etc etc. Gov today addressed two of these (pay & pensions for new entrants). The public service had become far too attractive for our smartest and best young people, who would be wasted in the PS. It would be impossible to build this smart economy the gov aspires to with a nation of unemployed teachers & nurses. Personally I think they should waive the 1500 euro registration fee and give a maintenance top up to students undertaking science, I.T. and other such courses to encourage study in these areas. Obviously they wanted to cut costs too but this is an added bonus, the 1+ billion they will save in cuts would have been easier found somewhere else, I can see a massive backlash for the 5% for up to 30k in particular. Some will no doubt think Im being ridiculous but anybody agree with this viewpoint?

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/03/22/story40395.asp

interesting angle