Im off to do my shopping up North- P***ed off public servant

frman

Ashanti wrote: »

As you see, it's a fool's policy. it doesn't improve the situation, in fact it makes it worse. The government is targeting the wrong people.

Ok, can I just clarify one thing,

The PS have not been targeted

The Govt has to cut pay as they can not afford to pay the current salary bill.

It's that simple.

Ronan|Raven

frman wrote: »

Ok, can I just clarify one thing,

The PS have not been targeted

The Govt has to cut pay as they can not afford to pay the current salary bill.

It's that simple.

That's crazy talk frman!

Ashanti

of course the PS has been targeted. The PS might need reform but blanket cuts isn't a reform. The govt should be targeting those who made the money and made the mess. The elite and high earners of this country are untouched. They should pick up the tab for this disaster not the ordinary workers public or private.

PeakOutput

Ashanti wrote: »

i do remember the public service highlighting the differences and wanting equality though.well guess what this is what equality means

you didnt really respond to this point

why would you complain? it was your choice

As was your choice to be in the private sector.

im not complaining about being in the private sector. im not even complaining about being on minimum wage (and i wouldnt object to a reduction in the minimum wage). im not complaining about the fact that the goverment is paying for my education, im lucky. im also not complaining about my mothers pay being cut today in the ps as a result of today(neither is she in case your wondering) and im also not complaining about the fact my fathers salary has been reduced by 25% and his hours have been increased. im complaining about none of this. in fact i feel lucky to be in the position im in

what i am complaining about is your attitude is one that(if as many people in the ps share which they seem to) will completely and utterly **** up this country for me and my future and my families future. this country can be well on its way to repair in 3/4 years. not fixing our deficit or spending all your money up north because we are fixing our deficit will completely destroy any possibility of a medium term fix. not only does this mess up my future plans but it messes up yours too as there will be no country to hire you

frman

Ashanti wrote: »

The elite and high earners of this country

That old chestnut.

Tell me what is an elite and high earner. ?
How many of them are there. ?
What tax rate should we hit them with to get 4bn savings ?


Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

Rb

Ashanti wrote: »

I also know people in the private sector doing very well and still getting bonuses etc. many businesses will make money from this recession. And it won't be the public sector.

Because the function of the public sector and private companies are comparable right?

No, no I don't think so.

frman wrote:

Ok, can I just clarify one thing,

The PS have not been targeted

The Govt has to cut pay as they can not afford to pay the current salary bill.

It's that simple.

Careful now, that's a whole lot of sense you're making, you don't want to piss off those who can't see the difference between sense and nonsense right now.

frman

Rb wrote: »

Careful now, that's a whole lot of sense you're making, you don't want to piss off those who can't see the difference between sense and nonsense right now.

And to think we nearly fell out over the price of fags

Ashanti

PeakOutput wrote: »

you didnt really respond to this point





im not complaining about being in the private sector. im not even complaining about being on minimum wage (and i wouldnt object to a reduction in the minimum wage). im not complaining about the fact that the goverment is paying for my education, im lucky. im also not complaining about my mothers pay being cut today in the ps as a result of today(neither is she in case your wondering) and im also not complaining about the fact my fathers salary has been reduced by 25% and his hours have been increased. im complaining about none of this. in fact i feel lucky to be in the position im in

what i am complaining about is your attitude is one that(if as many people in the ps share which they seem to) will completely and utterly **** up this country for me and my future and my families future. this country can be well on its way to repair in 3/4 years. not fixing our deficit or spending all your money up north because we are fixing our deficit will completely destroy any possibility of a medium term fix. not only does this mess up my future plans but it messes up yours too as there will be no country to hire you

i also live here and what is happening is affecting us all. however, i believe that this government will only get the message that they need to recover this deficit from those who can afford it, through action. Why are you not up in arms over the fact that the big guys in banking, construction, business have made a huge amount of money, i mean billions, and yet have to got away without repaying the damage they caused to this country. The banking management are still there, still earning their big salaries. Those who borrowed those hundreds of millions seem to be able to stop paying even the interest on their loans and there's a lot more of this type of corruption around but no-one seems to be particularly angry about that.

Welease

Ashanti wrote: »

And btw, this whole private/public divide is a great rue of the government to detract anger from where it should be directed, at the government for the absolute mess they have made of the economy with help from the banking and construction sector. why not have a go at them and the 54 billion bailout to dig out a totally corrupt sector? No, it's easier to have a go at the ordinary workers in the PS. and even though reforms are required inthe PS and no-one denies that, blanket cuts in pay is not a reform. .

People are having a go at the government, and one of the items they are pissed off about, is having to fund an overstaffed, overly expensive public sector.

You were given many many opportunities to reform, and you stood behind your pathetic unions every time changes were proposed..

You reap what you sowed..

Pay cuts suck for everyone who gets them, and I'm sure a lot of PS workers will be in financial difficulty due to the cuts.. but you and only you have yourselves to blame for the overstaffing, overspending attitude of the last 10 years.. and you (the PS) have to be fixed.

Ashanti

frman wrote: »

That old chestnut.

Tell me what is an elite and high earner. ?
How many of them are there. ?
What tax rate should we hit them with to get 4bn savings ?


Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

If you listen to Richard Bruton's speech you will have all your questions answered. Look it up.

frman

Ashanti wrote: »

If you listen to Richard Bruton's speech you will have all your questions answered. Look it up.

ah, richard bruton, i see.
:rolleyes:

LookingFor

Ashanti wrote: »

There are thousands of PS workers let go every year as their contract runs out. i work in education and there would be at least 2000 teachers out of contract at the end of each year. this is the same across the public service. it has never made the news over the past thirteen years( my time working). They do not have guaranteed jobs yet they still pay pension levies etc when they are working. This situation is more extreme than even the most exploitative of private sector contracting.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with my post you were replying to, but if that's the case, and if you're unhappy with that, then bail out and go work for someone else.

The only response that'll 'work' here is if people stop working for the government. Then they'll have to make more attractive offers. It's a free labour market, you're not forced to work for the government - if the government isn't offering something attractive, people shouldn't work for them - the market will respond, the labour market, and they'll have to react to that.

But if people stay they won't have incentive to improve their offering. And I presume people will only stay if it suits them.

Just like every other employer out there.

Just do us a favour - if you don't want to work for the government, if you want to make the government hurt by not working for them, don't do it by striking and wasting money. Do it by resigning.

edit - also, on the point above about 'elite and high earners' - presuming they're not tax exiles, they're paying far more tax than you or I as it is. If they're not, they're either exiles, or they're not actually making as much money as you think. If they are, they are 'paying their share'. But they can't be subject to pay cuts if they don't work for the PS. How can any employer interfere with the HR policy of another employer?

PeakOutput

Ashanti wrote: »

i also live here and what is happening is affecting us all. however, i believe that this government will only get the message that they need to recover this deficit from those who can afford it, through action. Why are you not up in arms over the fact that the big guys in banking, construction, business have made a huge amount of money, i mean billions, and yet have to got away without repaying the damage they caused to this country. The banking management are still there, still earning their big salaries. Those who borrowed those hundreds of millions seem to be able to stop paying even the interest on their loans and there's a lot more of this type of corruption around but no-one seems to be particularly angry about that.

the big business men and bankers will, if they have broken the law, be punished. nama will(so it says ) pursue the developers for every penny. i dont believe you can blame,what, a handfull of developers for the actions of an entire country. nobody forced anyone to buy a house. there may have been shady practices etc and if there were the people who were involved should be punished

the goverment has ****ed up, but the country voted for them repeatedly, they should be out of goverment at the next election

BUT

we cant wait for the next election, we cant wait for the years of investigation and judicial process it is going to take to bring any of these people to justice(if it ever happens).

we cant wait to see if nama is actually going to do what it says it will so then we can say 'oh ok they kept up their end of the bargain take 5% off me now'

we cant do that because if we do the entire country will be bankrupt long long before the results of any of that are available

action needs to be taken now. todays budget is the start. pay cuts are not reform but they are what is needed NOW.

reform will hopefully come and guess what? the public service will be up in arms again because that reform will include job loss's for the useless, more pay cuts for the marginally usefull and pay rises for the hard workers

Namlub

Ashanti wrote: »

of course the PS has been targeted. The PS might need reform but blanket cuts isn't a reform. The govt should be targeting those who made the money and made the mess. The elite and high earners of this country are untouched. They should pick up the tab for this disaster not the ordinary workers public or private.

Has anyone claimed that they are? As has been pointed out numerous times, it is impossible to tax our way out of a recession and of course the government can only impose pay cuts on the public sector, yet you still seem to find the idea completely inexplicable. I'm sure it's a lovely idea that the people got us into this mess should be the ones who suffer to get us out if it but it's simply not viable.

gerry28

I'm very annoyed at this carbon tax.

Oil is going up 8.7%. 1000 litres is £399 in dungannon.

frman

gerry28 wrote: »

I'm very annoyed at this carbon tax.

Oil is going up 8.7%. 1000 litres is £399 in dungannon.

They need 4 billion.

If they didnt implement a carbon tax, there would have been more pay cuts.

Which do we want ffs ?

who_ru

ulysses32 wrote: »

My anger stems from the inequality. We are now shouldering the country and don't expect thanks because we don't want it.

i nearly dropped my coffee when i read this. it's the same old record - we(ps) are the only ones taking the pain - we & we alone deserve better.

ever hear of a thing called society? what about welfare recipients? how'd they do today?

Noffles

who what when wrote: »

Very well thought out strategy OP. Now i presume in the previous few years you were simply not surviving considering the cost of living has reduced by more than 5%?

For my part im a low paid private sector worker who took a pay hit of more than 25% this year and under no circumstances will i be going up north to give the bastard my hard earned money.

Who is this "bastard" you speak of?

But simple economics would dictate, you have less money so you go where you can buy cheaper... no?

PeakOutput

Noffles wrote: »

Who is this "bastard" you speak of?

But simple economics would dictate, you have less money so you go where you can buy cheaper... no?

absolutely brilliant short term solution

if they understand teh consequences and are willing to accept them then go for it.

unfortunately it seems they are not smart enough to see how this short term strategy completely screw themselves in the long run

Count Dooku

Charisma wrote: »

I got nothing in the boom so now Im f***ed if Im paying anymore to bail the government and the bankers out.

Switch your account to non-Irish bank as well, if you are so desperate for revenge
But I don’t think that you scared anybody

Beruthiel

I truly do find the reaction of the public sector amusing.
A large chunk of the private sector no longer have jobs. Those that do took big reductions in their wages and live with the fact that where they work could close down at any time.
We cannot make any solid plans for the future because we could loose our jobs at any second.
Most public sector people have job security. Until today, they really have not felt any real pain from this recession.
Suck it up.
The rest of us have been doing that for some time now.

LookingFor

I don't often wade into these debates, but it seems to be that many PS workers are awfully spoilt.

I don't mean spoiled by their employers, financially, but I mean spoilt in terms of attention given to them by the rest of us and by the media and in terms of the sense of importance they have about themselves vs the rest of us. Yes, the government is the single biggest employer in the state, but this doesn't make its employees special.

Every week for the past 18 months or so company after company have left their employees holding the baby, so to speak, due to financial underperformance.

When the PS is asked to do the same by its employer when its employer is facing financial difficulties, you get wailing and threats, and demands that employees of OTHER entities share the burden of the government's financial problems beyond their tax obligations.

I'll tell you what - they'll start doing that when the government starts paying them for their work instead of a private entity.

Here's a little exercise for anyone engaged in this debate: every time you write or hear 'public sector' or 'government' replace it with the name of some given company. Let's say...Apple. And when you hear the word 'private sector' replace it with another company's name...like I dunno, Ford.

Do this, and you quickly realise how ridiculous much of the logic employed in these debates is.

gerry28

Beruthiel wrote: »

Those that do took big reductions in their wages.

30% or so of those still in jobs did the other 70% did not according to some reports.

Jumpy

Alessandra wrote: »

Good on you. I think everyone should go up and shop in the North as a protest at the disparity in the budget targettig the middle and not the top AGAIN.

It barely scratched the middle.

For those middle couples with no kids and renting it didnt touch at all.

weldoninhio

I work in the private sector, i'll still shop in NI because its cheaper. I don't care about the local economy, i don't care about this country and if it goes to the wall i'll move somewhere else. I'm well educated and i'm sure i'd easily pick up a similar role in another country. A 5% pay cut for the civil servants earning under E30,000 is ridiculous and i for one would support them if they decide to go on strike.

Tim Robbins

Charisma wrote: »

Thats it for me. Ive been loyal and shopped in Ireland and tried to buy Irish products since this recession hit but now I give up. I am a low paid public servant who was hit by the income levy, then the pension levy and now a 5 % pay cut. I cant afford to shop here anymore. I can save the 5% the government are taking from me by shopping elsewhere and keep my family afloat (just) and thats exactly what Im going to do. I got nothing in the boom so now Im f***ed if Im paying anymore to bail the government and the bankers out.

I agree the government should not have cut people in your bracket by 5%. However, your Unions did an awful job of arguing your case. Instead of focussing on protecting the lowly paid, they didn't even differentiate between you and the high paid.

And just because you got nothing out of the boom doesn't mean you are entitled to be left alone now. Most IT people have been on pay freezes for most years since 2001 and are currently lucky to have a job if they have one.

Jumpy

who_ru wrote: »

i nearly dropped my coffee when i read this. it's the same old record - we(ps) are the only ones taking the pain - we & we alone deserve better.

ever hear of a thing called society? what about welfare recipients? how'd they do today?

Your coffee? I nearly dropped my monocle. Is it not Private Sector corpo tax and Private Sector income tax that pays for this shouldering?

nkay1985

gerry28 wrote: »

30% or so of those still in jobs did the other 70% did not according to some reports.

Some reports isn't exactly definitive evidence but, leaving that aside, you're missing another fundamental point.

As I said on a previous page, my company made 400 people redundant. The 800 that are left are now expected to to more work than was done with 1200. Everyone is now doing about one and a half jobs compared to what they were. So, while we won't show up as having taken a pay cut, we're working more for the same money.

This is replicated all across the private sector.

westtip

This budget was totally brilliant - OP stay in the North we couldn't give a tuppeny F*ck.

furrysnookerbal

Beruthiel wrote: »

I truly do find the reaction of the public sector amusing.
A large chunk of the private sector no longer have jobs. Those that do took big reductions in their wages and live with the fact that where they work could close down at any time.
We cannot make any solid plans for the future because we could loose our jobs at any second.
Most public sector people have job security. Until today, they really have not felt any real pain from this recession.
Suck it up.
The rest of us have been doing that for some time now.

Im sick of this sh*t. Not all the private sector are living in fear of losing their jobs, thats rubbish. If jobs ARE being lost its from businesses that were badly managed and should not have been trading anyway. This recession has sorted the wheat from the chafe. Just coz a business was started doesnt give the entitlement to continue in bad times. Greed, uncompetitivesness, poor management and waste are to blame for a lot of it. And indeed overpaying staff and lucrative bonuses played a part too

As regards the public sector, my girlfriend and I both work in it, COMBINED wage 70K a year. In the last year we have seen this fall by 15K, so dont come on with this crap that it is only today we are complaining about. And dont start this crap that we are lucky to have jobs, we are doing the jobs that plenty of people thought were beneath them when times were good.