Im off to do my shopping up North- P***ed off public servant

rafo802

Funny isn't it, how some people think they're badly off when they have to take a paycut while others on this planet can barely afford a glass of clean water and a hot meal.

Well OP maybe you should cancel your trip up north and take yourself down to your local homeless shelter instead, then you might understand that your not as badly off as you might think.

Regards.

ulysses32

omahaid wrote: »

Yep, the guy from KPMG said that private sector workers could have had paycuts already. Nobody compared the private sector worker who recently lost his job to the public sector job who still has theirs. Did they?

Nobody compared the private sector worker who lost a job to the private sector worker who got a pay rise. Did they?

omahaid

ulysses32 wrote: »

Nobody compared the private sector worker who lost a job to the private sector worker who got a pay rise. Did they?

Sure, let compare them.

Public sector worker - salary down 8%
Private sector worker who lost their job -salary down 100%
Private sector worker who got pay rise up ?%

How many private sector workers do you think got a 100% payrise? A lot more private sector workers actually got a 100% paycut. Does that compare to 8%?

ixoy

Count Dooku wrote: »

You forgot to mention that most of PS workers will be partially compensated by 'automatic' salary increases as it was in May 2009
€250m pay bonanza for 340,000 in civil service

That's not seen as a pay rise. It's seen as an entitlement based on years of experience, with nothing to do with performance (PMDS doesn't count). The only pay rise that'd be seen as such would be the "Towards 2010" pay agreement. It's quite frustrating for that not to be perceived as a pay rise as it would be anywhere else given that, after a year, you could receive a rise in your pay.

Matthew712

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In this analogy, you are suggesting the government bring in the earnings, this in incorrect.

In order to balance your analogy, you must introduce the family next door, Family B, who go out to work in the field to pay for this family A.
Unfortunately, there is a famine throughout the country, so there is only really work for one person in family B on the farm where there used to be work for 2, and they are already dangerously low on food for themselves and their kids, since their food is shared with the family A , under a contract agreed when yields were plentiful.

Family B cannot be sacrificed because they bring in the food.
Family A cannot be sacrificed because they coordinate the work of all families on the farm.

So what you should be asking is:
Should you take more from the family B, who are already starving to prevent the family A losing a higher quality of life?

Or is equality the better pursuit? Should Family A agree to take a reduction in their food requirements stipulated in the contract, now that there is famine, so that Family B can also live, and eventually someone will discover how to cure plague and the high yields will return, for the benefit of both families.

Family B have done so much damage to the land that they not only didn't produce any food last year, they have ensured nothing will grow for years.
I'd eat family B

lmimmfn

ixoy wrote: »

That's not seen as a pay rise. It's seen as an entitlement based on years of experience, with nothing to do with performance (PMDS doesn't count). The only pay rise that'd be seen as such would be the "Towards 2010" pay agreement. It's quite frustrating for that not to be perceived as a pay rise as it would be anywhere else given that, after a year, you could receive a rise in your pay.

Its why the unions wanted the government to borrow until 2017 to take pay cuts, the PS would have got an accumulation of 20% increase between now and then so cutting by 20% would effectively be a 0% cut lol

RGS

Its great to see a budget leave our Bank CEO's retain their salaries of €500,000. Surely an additional tax on income over €300,000 would have sent a message to all workers both private & public, that the high earners, he still have them despite IBEC trying to deny it, are paying their share to aid recovery.

This would have reduce the ire of the PS workers.

The services provided by the state cannot be compared to a private sector company, a hospital would simply shut its doors once its annual income is spent thereby allowing sick people die of neglect, no nurse or doctor would stand for this and i would hope nobody on here would accept the old and sick dying because we run our hospitals as a profitable business.
Secondly Bus Eireann and An Post have a universal obligation in relation to there services and cannot use the loss making arguments private businesses are entitled to use.

E39MSport

Charisma wrote: »

Thats it for me. Ive been loyal and shopped in Ireland and tried to buy Irish products since this recession hit but now I give up. I am a low paid public servant who was hit by the income levy, then the pension levy and now a 5 % pay cut. I cant afford to shop here anymore. I can save the 5% the government are taking from me by shopping elsewhere and keep my family afloat (just) and thats exactly what Im going to do. I got nothing in the boom so now Im f***ed if Im paying anymore to bail the government and the bankers out.

Sure didn't you get a paid days leave yesterday to go shopping with my tax dollars?

Welease

RGS wrote: »

The services provided by the state cannot be compared to a private sector company, a hospital would simply shut its doors once its annual income is spent thereby allowing sick people die of neglect, no nurse or doctor would stand for this and i would hope nobody on here would accept the old and sick dying because we run our hospitals as a profitable business.

Of course they can be compared.. A hospital has a budget which it works to, if there is a defecit, then it can ask for more, but that money has to be taken from elsewhere (same as departments in a company). If most departments are overspending, then cuts have to be made (pay cuts for PS).
It is completely unsustainable in both the public or private sectors to be unable to balance your books. The PS is being hit now because of choices it has made in the past.

Edit - And without pointing out the obvious.. wards and hospitals are already closing because of the inefficiencies and wastage in the HSE.. So this is exactly what happens when you fail to run your business properly.. real people suffer and die.

imme

E39MSport wrote: »

Sure didn't you get a paid days leave yesterday to go shopping with my tax dollars?

What happened yesterday

efb

RGS wrote: »

Its great to see a budget leave our Bank CEO's retain their salaries of €500,000. Surely an additional tax on income over €300,000 would have sent a message to all workers both private & public, that the high earners, he still have them despite IBEC trying to deny it, are paying their share to aid recovery.
.

Weren't there salaries up to €3mill before that? Some drop!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/boi-learns-from-aibandits-1038301.html

RGS

Welease wrote: »

Of course they can be compared.. A hospital has a budget which it works to, if there is a defecit, then it can ask for more, but that money has to be taken from elsewhere (same as departments in a company). If most departments are overspending, then cuts have to be made (pay cuts for PS).
It is completely unsustainable in both the public or private sectors to be unable to balance your books. The PS is being hit now because of choices it has made in the past.

Edit - And without pointing out the obvious.. wards and hospitals are already closing because of the inefficiencies and wastage in the HSE.. So this is exactly what happens when you fail to run your business properly.. real people suffer and die.

My wife is a nurse for the past 25 years and i am well aware of the current run down health service. Its worse now than in the mid to late 80's and we as a country should not allow this to happen.

Flex

Matthew712 wrote: »

Family B have done so much damage to the land that they not only didn't produce any food last year, they have ensured nothing will grow for years.
I'd eat family B

Shouldnt the government and financial regulator have prevented "Family B" from 'wrecking the land', as was their duty? (Retarded analogy by the way, this **** about eating the sixth child and blah blah blah)

E39MSport

imme wrote: »

What happened yesterday

They get a paid day to do their Christmas shopping. Normally taken on the 8th. I'm talking about the wasters in the councils for sure so probably extends across the entire spectrum.

imme

E39MSport wrote: »

They get a paid day to do their Christmas shopping. Normally taken on the 8th.

Who? PS workers, not that I'm aware of.
There was a practice of giving staff in the some sections of the PS a half-day to do Christmas shopping [at the discretion of local management]. Seems to have disappeared afaik.

Welease

RGS wrote: »

My wife is a nurse for the past 25 years and i am well aware of the current run down health service. Its worse now than in the mid to late 80's and we as a country should not allow this to happen.

Exactly, so how you can pretend its ok for them to mismanage their finances because they are the public sector is beyond me.. They should manage their finance in exactly the same manner as a private company. If they had done that, there would not have been the need to drastically cut the salaries of employees today.

E39MSport

imme wrote: »

Who? PS workers, not that I'm aware of.
There was a practice of giving staff in the some sections of the PS a half-day to do Christmas shopping [at the discretion of local management]. Seems to have disappeared afaik.

Nope. It's a reality. Once these things are in they tend to stay. That's part of the problem. Paid time off to go shopping. Think about it.

LookingFor

Matthew712 wrote: »

A mother with 6 kids (1 fostered) breaks the hard new to her kids that Dad has lost his job because of excessive drinking. So now the household income is lower that the outgoings.

The government and the private sector are not one big family obligated to take care of their young 'uns (us) equally.

You've actually highlighted the impression I talked about earlier - of PS workers thinking the government is some big nanny looking over all of us. Private sector workers are not taken care of by the government - they're dependent on money generated by their own employers.

The government is responsible to its employees.

Private companies are responsible to its employees.

Sometimes each make bad decisions that leave each short when it comes to HR, decisions that are NOT the fault of the wider employee base - and that indeed, may be the fault of another group. The government chooses to bail out a bank, for example, leaving them short elsewhere. Or a company makes a misjudged acquisition. Whatever the case their respective employees suffer. But saying the suffering of one should be spread around to others it quite unfair. Or that it should be the case for the PS especially. If you find your employer to be incompetent, find a job with another and get out from under their control. But don't look to others to pay for it so you don't have to.

imme

E39MSport wrote: »

Nope. It's a reality(1). Once these things are in they tend to stay. That's part of the problem. Paid time off to go shopping. Think about it(2).

(1) where?, have you experienced it?
I'm PS and my experience is it's gone.
I guess it was a kind of Christmas bonus for PS staff as they don't get and never did get a Christmas bonus.

(2) eh?, think about what?

AsianDub

E39MSport wrote: »

Nope. It's a reality. Once these things are in they tend to stay. That's part of the problem. Paid time off to go shopping. Think about it.

How about getting paid to not work at all? Or get paid to travel for a few years and still have a job when you come back?!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0505/1224245938887.html

imme

AsianDub wrote: »

How about getting paid to not work at all? Or get paid to travel for a few years and still have a job when you come back?!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0505/1224245938887.html

this scheme has also been introduced in other sectors of the economy. It was introduced in AIB, were you against it there also?

Dannyboy83

Matthew712 wrote: »

Family B have done so much damage to the land that they not only didn't produce any food last year, they have ensured nothing will grow for years.
I'd eat family B

A possible short term solution;
What do you suggest in the medium to long term?

(Do remember when designing your solution; family A require family B to survive)

AsianDub

imme wrote: »

this scheme has also been introduced in other sectors of the economy. It was introduced in AIB, were you against it there also?

I did not know that but now you mention it yes - public or private

imme

AsianDub wrote: »

I did not know that but now you mention it yes - public or private

you're against it in both private and public sectors?

ardmacha

If you find your employer to be incompetent, find a job with another and get out from under their control. But don't look to others to pay for it so you don't have to.

If a company makes bad decisions its shareholders should suffer. This is all citizens who voted for the government that screwed up. Citizens who happen to work for the government are no more culpable than those who do not work for the government.

Timistry

I feel that the governments announcentment today about the reduction in excise duty and VAT was a budget sweetener and a joke. It will do nothing to bridge the gap, nooo gulf, between the north and the republic. I lived in leeds last year and was shocked at how cheap the cost of living was there in comparison to here. Food was way cheaper for the same brands and quality. Everything from long-haul imported fruit/veg and even Irish goods:eek:. And since i was a student i have an expansive knowledge of alcolhol prices. I was paying £7 for 8 bottles of Bulmers (yes the S&N one, but still....). Dont even drink cider but....:rolleyes: But pay € each here in a pub. Even Guinness was way cheaper. If i was living in the midlands or east id be up north in a shot

LookingFor

ardmacha wrote: »

If a company makes bad decisions its shareholders should suffer.

They do. And as a result of that usually its employees too.

ardmacha wrote: »

This is all citizens who voted for the government that screwed up. Citizens who happen to work for the government are no more culpable than those who do not work for the government.

No, we didn't all vote for this government. But I invite you to propose divvying up the tax burden based on who you voted for last election. If this were the case I'd been tax-free my whole life

Son Of A Vidic

I'm sick of public sector whining, your pain will never compare to the pain endured by the private sector so far in this recession. God love ye there's a recruitment embargo - that would mean your jobs are pretty much secure then surely. We don't have such luxuries in the private sector. It's a pity the brainless Muppet Lenihan, hadn't the balls to get rid of a few thousand of them. There are two types within this sector - the Temporary and the Permanent staff. Fortunately it's the temporary staff that do the 'donkey work', the permanent staff have reached the status of privileged, untouchable and unsackable who no longer need to work. God forbid if someone demanded work from them, because they would probably require an extended period of sick leave due to stress, oh and yes that magic word...'bullying'. So tough **** and welcome to the club, I just hope the days of waste and dossing are coming to an end for Ireland's sake.

E39MSport

imme wrote: »

(1) where?, have you experienced it?
I'm PS and my experience is it's gone.
I guess it was a kind of Christmas bonus for PS staff as they don't get and never did get a Christmas bonus.


(2) eh?, think about what?

1) Yes, yes I have witnessed it first hand.

2) Think about the type of mentality and 'ethos' involved whereby staff get paid to do their shopping.

It's crazy. A good shake is what's needed.

Dr Kamikazi

Actually, here's the official reaction from the civil servants to the budget:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc