Irish People's attitudes towards high earners.

Reillyman

Over the past 2 years in this country, mainly since the downturn in the economy I have noticed a terrible attitude from the working and middle classes towards high earners in our economy.

I have noticed at least 10 people on this site tonight more or less criminalise high earners, for no reason other than the fact that they earn more money than them. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it has a lot to do with jealousy. People see others earning upwards of say €150,000 and immediately constuct negative comments about how these people don't need this money etc etc. This doesn't just refer to public sector employees, but private sector as well.

I think Irish people are great at looking to blame others to distract attention from themselves, can people not realise that these people earn a big wage due to their years of hard-work, creativity, motivation, initiative etc.

Has anyone else noticed this?

CuLT

I once heard someone coin the difference between Irish people an American people thusly:

An American person sees a big house, fancy car, etc and thinks, "some day I'm going to be that guy", wheras an Irish person sees the same thing and thinks, "I'm going to get that guy."

Thought it summed up the national attitude perfectly.

invincibleirish

Your old man feeling the pain tonight oreillyman?

Reillyman

invincibleirish wrote: »

Your old man feeling the pain tonight oreillyman?

Not sure what ya mean by this! My mother is a nurse and my father works as a carpenter in the local hospital, we live in a 4 bedroomed house in an estate, nothing out of the ordinary at all, like I'd even notice my parents having this kind of attitude.

douglashyde

I agree completly,

however when some of those high earners are only high earners because they have been in the Public Sector for so many years, this is wrong.

For example, there is a manager in the company(semi-state) I work for, who's role is Community Support Manager, he is a nice guy, however he is paid 90,000 euro........ there is no qualification that makes him special. he has simply been in the company for 40 odd year.

This is the problem with the civil service, they are overpaid and then complain when they have to take a cut.

hmmm

I've only noticed this attitude recently because our airwaves have been monopolised in the lead up to the budget by those who feed off the state rather than contributing to it, and this may give the impression that we are all foaming boyd barrett voters. I think what the government discovered last week when they tried to offer the "unpaid leave" suggestion is that there is a large majority of ordinary hardworking middle class people who have had enough at being the ones paying for the largesse of the state, whether it is to pay for (arguably) overpaid public servants or to keep the poverty and social welfare industries in operation.

That middle class block are an aspirational block who value work and the rewards it brings. I don't see them being part of the chorus for massive hikes on high earners because one day they hope that they, or someone in their family, will be a high earner also.

You'll still see our airwaves stuffed full of quango "community workers" and "social workers" over the next few weeks rabbiting on about how a 16 euro cut in child benefit will force families to sleep in boxes, I wouldn't see them as representative.

Reillyman

Yeah I totally agree about certain public sector employees, people have a right to be annoyed about that as it's their money that's paying them, but I just think that giving out about what people get paid working for the private sector is absolutely ridiculous.

I often hear people complaining about consultant doctors or judges getting payed €200,000+, but they fail to realise the years and years of university, study, work etc, that it takes to get to that postition.

cson

Definitely. There is a certain lack of respect for anyone who earns >€100k in my opinion. To earn a wage like that generally requires a lot of time spent in education and then a lot of time spent doing donkey work before you eventually reap the rewards. I would say however a large part of the perception is based on what a lot of the banking CEO's paid themselves and I'd hazard a guess that'd be a factor in the antipathy towards high earners.

invincibleirish

Reillyman wrote: »

Not sure what ya mean by this! My mother is a nurse and my father works as a carpenter in the local hospital, we live in a 4 bedroomed house in an estate, nothing out of the ordinary at all, like I'd even notice my parents having this kind of attitude.

Apologies for assumptions i mistook you as the offspring of someone who felt they have been overburdened with unfair tax increases but can't see the wood for the trees.

As for your original point, Ireland is ground zero for crony capitalism, its all about who you know not what you know. High earners in this economy have had a very, very favourable regime in tune with their greed since pretty much the 1960s in this state.

Personally speaking i do not begrudge anyone who makes their fortune but have an intense dislike for people who spend time trying to avoid their tax liabilities and engage in political corruption. This is why the likes of Ben Dunne, Denis O' Brien, Dermot Desmond and their ilk are as bad as any other criminal in that they put their selfish needs and wants above consideration for anyone else. These people are high earners but have the morals of scumbags.

lmimmfn

its a very valid point, this country runs on jealousy and hatred for the better off rather that us all trying to better ourselves, just want to knock that guy down a peg or two.

Maybe its a result of colonisation?

Flex

I agree people have a bad attitude towards the wealthy in this country, as far as I can see anyway. Someone else (cant remember the name) posted this in another thread about bashing the rich and I thought it was pretty good, albeit anecdotal and simplified...

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six men; the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Reillyman

I'm glad to see that other people notice this too. The main problem I have with it is that I hope to one day earn very high wages as a result of my ambitions, but hate the thought that everyone will have a degree of hatred towards me as "he's a rich cnut."

Roro4Brit

I think what's happened is that for many years people in the middle class had means and ways to live far beyond their station. A couple on 60k combined were able to buy a house, cars, many holidays and anythin demand that their easy credit facilitated. They were then living beyond their means and it is only now when such lifestyles are crublinv around their ears that the resenment builds for those who can, and probably should always have been, the only ones to afford such lifestyles.

A lot of people feel that high quality lifestyles are a right, but alas it has been shown that it is indeed a privalge of those who cam truely afford it.

Reillyman

Flex wrote: »

I agree people have a bad attitude towards the wealthy in this country, as far as I can see anyway. Someone else (cant remember the name) posted this in another thread about bashing the rich and I thought it was pretty good, albeit anecdotal and simplified...

Ian Dempsey Breakfast show, unreal, thought that example was absolutely brilliant.

Fighting Irish

Reillyman wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed this?

I've noticed this for years, most people are just pissed cos their lives are boring as fook

Fighting Irish

douglashyde wrote: »

I agree completly,

however when some of those high earners are only high earners because they have been in the Public Sector for so many years, this is wrong.

For example, there is a manager in the company(semi-state) I work for, who's role is Community Support Manager, he is a nice guy, however he is paid 90,000 euro........ there is no qualification that makes him special. he has simply been in the company for 40 odd year.

This is the problem with the civil service, they are overpaid and then complain when they have to take a cut.

Just like someone on 25,000K complains when they have to take a cut?
I bet millions of people have the same attitude towards the 25,000Kers complaining as you do towards the 90,000Ker complaining

Jealousy is a bitch

PoleStar

People also forget that the top 1% of earners pay 20% of the tax take, the top 4% contribute 48%.

If it wasnt for the high rollers, the country would be seriously short on tax.

invincibleirish

Reillyman wrote: »

I often hear people complaining about consultant doctors or judges getting payed €200,000+, but they fail to realise the years and years of university, study, work etc, that it takes to get to that postition.

You are looking at things in black and white. Consultants everywhere do the study and work, but its in Ireland that the consultants are paid a disproportionate amount of money and wield a significant amount of power through their unionm this is when people take issue with them.

As for the judges, these are political appointments, again its a case of who you know and not what you know.

Flex

Reillyman wrote: »

Ian Dempsey Breakfast show, unreal, thought that example was absolutely brilliant.

Yea its very good in the way its simple to understand and completely applicable; tax the rich too much and theyll just take their money to another country where the government wont tax them as much. Then the government loses huge revenue, the banks in Ireland lose that money to lend out money against and so on....

Reillyman

invincibleirish wrote: »

You are looking at things in black and white. Consultants everywhere do the study and work, but its in Ireland that the consultants are paid a disproportionate amount of money and unwield a significant amount of power through their union.

As for the judges, these are political appointments, again its a case of who you know and not what you know.

This may be the case, but everyone in this country had the chance to become whatever they wanted, so instead of them giving out, they should look at how to improve their own life...

invincibleirish

Reillyman wrote: »

This may be the case, but everyone in this country had the chance to become whatever they wanted, so instead of them giving out, they should look at how to improve their own life...

What? look young man you may think people suffer from green eyed monsterism but its not that simple in real life. People don't give out about consultants, bankers, lawyers or politicians because of what they earn, they give out because they can and do engage in nefarious activities which have negative effects on other people. Its not about rich v poor.

#edit# we've only had free fees in this country since the 1990s, not everyone could have had the opportunitys you speak of.

MysticalRain

Reillyman wrote: »

Yeah I totally agree about certain public sector employees, people have a right to be annoyed about that as it's their money that's paying them, but I just think that giving out about what people get paid working for the private sector is absolutely ridiculous.

I often hear people complaining about consultant doctors or judges getting payed €200,000+, but they fail to realise the years and years of university, study, work etc, that it takes to get to that postition.

A university degree and years of experience don't automatically entitle someone to a salary of €200,000 a year. There are plenty of people out there who work far harder than doctors and judges and are paid far less. In the case of the legal and medical professions, the amount they are paid has less to do with talent and hard work and more to do with artificial barriers to entry in those professions.

I don't mind if someone is being paid 100,000+. The question is whether or not they are worth the money. Given the state of our health service, you cannot say that consultants are worth the money.

LookingFor

I agree, and it's our downfall.

So many of us talk so much ****e about how things should be different but really don't do anything to improve our situations.

And then we bash those that take a risk and do step out of their comfort zone to do something about their circumstances. And that's just our own bitterness showing over what we DIDN'T do.

I almost don't blame the wealthiest for fleeing the country - the general attitude here is not conducive to success, and if you want to be successful you need to surround yourself with people who aren't looking to point the finger anywhere but at themselves.

CuLT

Reillyman wrote: »

This may be the case, but everyone in this country had the chance to become whatever they wanted, so instead of them giving out, they should look at how to improve their own life...

Dangerous territory there, be careful

People at different levels of society are afforded different pre-existing circumstances and pressured in different directions - it's naive to argue that everyone has an equal chance to be successful, because while there is no *technical* barrier or formalized "class segregation", there are conditions that take charisma and determination to break out of, especially for poorer folk.

I agree in principle that generalizing about people in different income brackets is at best silly (despite the fact I'm doing it a little here), but I wouldn't go so far as to say everyone has made their own beds.

Reillyman

invincibleirish wrote: »

What? look young man you may think people suffer from green eyed monsterism but its not that simple in real life. People don't give out about consultants, bankers, lawyers or politicians because of what they earn, they give out because they can and do engage in nefarious activities which have negative effects on other people. Its not about rich v poor.

Please don't refer to me as young man.

Your obviously misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying all high earners are angels, what I'm saying is that a lot of Irish people dislike high earners for the simple fact that they earn more than them.

For example, when people hear of an entreprenuer who has built his own company and is paying himself say €500,000 a year, they immediately take a negative attitude towards them.

Reillyman

CuLT wrote: »

People at different levels of society are afforded different pre-existing circumstances and pressured in different directions - it's naive to argue that everyone has an equal chance to be successful, because while there is no *technical* barrier or formalized "class segregation", there are conditions that take charisma and determination to break out of, especially for poorer folk.

Totally agree. I know that some people have a much higher chance than others at certain opportunities, but if a person wants something hard enough, they can achieve it.

Scarab

invincibleirish wrote: »

You are looking at things in black and white. Consultants everywhere do the study and work, but its in Ireland that the consultants are paid a disproportionate amount of money and wield a significant amount of power through their unionm this is when people take issue with them.

As for the judges, these are political appointments, again its a case of who you know and not what you know.

True and consultants have taken a hit in this budget and judges have been given a pay freeze into the future as the constitution somehow precludes them from taking pay cuts.

The OP is referring to a much wider group than these 2. The majority of high earners are self made business men who create jobs and GDP and pay the majority of tax for the country. Incentivising jobs like these is the only way this country can get out of this recession.

We don't have natural resources to rely on, all of our GDP must be created through innovation and people willing to take risks with their own capital through investment in business. People won't take risks if any money they earn is going to redistributed to a bloated public service.

Remember for every business success there is a guy who has ploughed his life savings into a business and is now bankrupt, why take this risk if there is going to be no reward?

Godge

CuLT wrote: »

I once heard someone coin the difference between Irish people an American people thusly:

An American person sees a big house, fancy car, etc and thinks, "some day I'm going to be that guy", wheras an Irish person sees the same thing and thinks, "I'm going to get that guy."

Thought it summed up the national attitude perfectly.

You are correct in comparing the national attitude.

but the problem is that Ireland is not America. In America you work hard, work long hours etc. and you get the rewards. In Ireland you look for the quick buck, the cute hoorism, the property play. it is not about how hard you work, it is about who you know and how you can play the system. that inevitably leads to the cynical attitude displayed by the majority.

Until we can get rid of the caricature of the FF gombeen small businessman in a rural town, those attitudes will continue. Equality of opportunity is key but we don't have it.

starbelgrade

invincibleirish wrote: »

People don't give out about consultants, bankers, lawyers or politicians because of what they earn, they give out because they can and do engage in nefarious activities which have negative effects on other people.

Not all bankers, politicians & lawyers are involved in "nefarious activities", as you put it, just as not all "nefarious activities" are carried out by them either.

And on top of that, not all of them are high salary earners, just as not all high salary earners belong to those 3 groups.

I'm a young man, and even I understand that.

starbelgrade

Godge wrote: »

You are correct in comparing the national attitude.

but the problem is that Ireland is not America. In America you work hard, work long hours etc. and you get the rewards. In Ireland you look for the quick buck, the cute hoorism, the property play. it is not about how hard you work, it is about who you know and how you can play the system. that inevitably leads to the cynical attitude displayed by the majority.

Until we can get rid of the caricature of the FF gombeen small businessman in a rural town, those attitudes will continue. Equality of opportunity is key but we don't have it.

That's a complete generalisation - you are assuming that no cute hoorism goes on in the States... sure it doesn't. The mafia earn an honest living, just as the bent coppers do, or the estate agents, money lenders, sub-prime mortgage lenders etc etc.

Nobody plays the system there & the streets are paved with gold if you are willing to graft for it.. It IS the land of the free, the land of opportunity, after all...

Oh, yeah - and nobody here who's made a few quid has done so by an honest slog, by being inventive or by doing something that people are willing to pay a high price for. Nah, they're just milkin' the system somehow.

lmtduffy

Reillyman wrote: »

Over the past 2 years in this country, mainly since the downturn in the economy I have noticed a terrible attitude from the working and middle classes towards high earners in our economy.

I have noticed at least 10 people on this site tonight more or less criminalise high earners, for no reason other than the fact that they earn more money than them. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it has a lot to do with jealousy. People see others earning upwards of say €150,000 and immediately constuct negative comments about how these people don't need this money etc etc. This doesn't just refer to public sector employees, but private sector as well.

I think Irish people are great at looking to blame others to distract attention from themselves, can people not realise that these people earn a big wage due to their years of hard-work, creativity, motivation, initiative etc.

Has anyone else noticed this?

These people the successful ones are only so successful due to their hard work, and the long hours they work. There are many other people who work just as long and just as hard but they do not get pay'd the same.

You need to learn to look closer at society, to large extent successful people are successful by chance, by chance of where they grow up, the school they attend, their parents parenting ability, their parents income, the situation of their extended family.

All these things play a greater part in determining where you end up in life than hard work ever will.

So get real, people aren't jealous of what they should have done, they are angry, and rightfully so, that people earn more than they could ever need when they can barley afford their kids school books.

A euro is worth less for every additional euro you have, its called diminishing marginal returns it is economic and socially just to redistribute wealth, especially when such a gulf between the rich and poor already exists and when we are already struggling to deal with the problems of that.