Irish People's attitudes towards high earners.

cson

dan719 wrote: »

Note that I am talking about tax paid as a percentage of income. People in lower socio economic classes are more likely to smoke and drink heavily. As a result they pay more in so called sin taxes. See J O'Hagan 'Excise Duty on Alcohol In Ireland' for more.

To expand on that, I read an article where an economics Professor argued for increasing welfare payments as a method of stimulating the economy - those on welfare he argued generally spend it all and by increasing it to €300 it would provide an indirect stimulus boost for the country.

Now, while I don't agree with that, it is an interesting theory but ultimately in practice it would never work.

starbelgrade

cson wrote: »

To expand on that, I read an article where an economics Professor argued for increasing welfare payments as a method of stimulating the economy - those on welfare he argued generally spend it all and by increasing it to €300 it would provide an indirect stimulus boost for the country.

Now, while I don't agree with that, it is an interesting theory but ultimately in practice it would never work.

I think it would work - people living on benefits (and I'm not talking about those who make a career choice to be on the dole), struggle to get by on the €200 odd. I'm not saying they don't get by, but they do so by forgoing the luxuries they once had, like a good night out, some nice clothes or something new for the house, some extras in the shopping basket or a meal in a good restaurant. Others who are struggling, would use it to pay off bills & debts. Very, very few would save it.

It may not be a good long term idea as it would make the dole career option more attractive, but in the short term, it would definitely all be spent. I'm not sure the cost of that, or if it's worth it, but the theory seems sound to me.

zielarz

MysticalRain wrote: »

I don't mind if someone is being paid 100,000+. The question is whether or not they are worth the money. Given the state of our health service, you cannot say that consultants are worth the money.

Very good point. That's the reason why education and healthcare should be privatised. Then everyone could stop worring wheather those guys are or aren't worth the money.. because on a free-market you get what you deserve. Unfortunately, there are just few people on these forums who understand the fundamentals of economy.

Tipp Man

Its pure begrudery, thats the problem in this country, nobody likes to see anybody doing better than themselves

you also have to look at the generous welfare system in this state which breeds a take as much as you can attitude.

MysticalRain

zielarz wrote: »

Very good point. That's the reason why education and healthcare should be privatised. Then everyone could stop worring wheather those guys are or aren't worth the money.. because on a free-market you get what you deserve. Unfortunately, there are just few people on these forums who understand the fundamentals of economy.

I have dubious views about both public and private systems. Speaking from personal experience, I have met plenty of poor performing consultants in the private system. Although many people will point out that it's often worse in the public system.

cson

starbelgrade wrote: »

I think it would work - people living on benefits (and I'm not talking about those who make a career choice to be on the dole), struggle to get by on the €200 odd. I'm not saying they don't get by, but they do so by forgoing the luxuries they once had, like a good night out, some nice clothes or something new for the house, some extras in the shopping basket or a meal in a good restaurant. Others who are struggling, would use it to pay off bills & debts. Very, very few would save it.

It may not be a good long term idea as it would make the dole career option more attractive, but in the short term, it would definitely all be spent. I'm not sure the cost of that, or if it's worth it, but the theory seems sound to me.

The big hole I can pick in it, is that by raising it that much you'd bring it so close to the minimum wage as to make it pointless for minimum wagers to work thereby inflatiing the welfare recipients by a huge amount as these just would quit their jobs and claim welfare and I'd say the amount by which it would increase would break the country.

lmtduffy

zielarz wrote: »

Very good point. That's the reason why education and healthcare should be privatised. Then everyone could stop worring wheather those guys are or aren't worth the money.. because on a free-market you get what you deserve. Unfortunately, there are just few people on these forums who understand the fundamentals of economy.

have you ever heard of market failure?
and are you aware that decision can be made where the social benefit overrides the benefits of economic efficiency?

Few people indeed...

Reillyman

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

(The fact that they are worth so much brings about the inequality in the first place.)
If it is as simple as this why do so many go off-shore and become non-resident?

What you have just said is that one person earning more than another is unfair.

So yo actually think that a person working in McDonalds should get the exact same wage as a Company Director?

Ever heard of Cuba or China my friend? You might find them to your liking.

Bandit12

High earners disgust me tbh.

moceri

High Earners get a Bad name when someone like Michael Fingleton can Walk away from the mess he created in Irish Nationwide with a Pension Pot of Euro 27M. It makes my blood boil that the Governent won't go after him.
I would support a super tax on these sort of people.

The tax payer is left to clean up the mess.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fingletons--83641m-bonus-still-not-paid-back-1946492.html

I am also annoyed with the Civil Servant who signed off Roddy Molloy's severance package because he feared litigation. I say let Roddy litigate and let the Government vigourously rebuff him. It will send out a clear message about ineptitude and corruption in the civil service which should be harshly dealt with.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/top-aide-breached-guidelines-in-exfas-boss-deal-1955993.html

irish_bob

Seanohea wrote: »

I would love to see more of these so called high earners represented on current affairs programmes on both tv and radio, and see what they have to say about their taxation.
Personally i'm sick of hearing people complain "damn those government ministers are paid 200,000 and poor me i have my social welfare cut, when i have a big mortgage of 400,000 to take care of", that they (a lot of people i've heard in the media) got when they were working on construction sites in the boom. If some people couldn't see it was unwise to get the obscene mortgages they were getting, its primarily their fault in my opinion.
A lot of people dont seem to take responsibility for their own actions, and seem only to ready to blame the government and bankers, and they get far too big of a platform in the national media.

the only unashamedley right wing capitalistic commentator i ever see on tv is constance guriev and i would wager that his views are more representive of the nation than those of someon like ciaran allen or richard boyd barrett , our media in terms of tv and radio is left wing and the socilist academics and other minority view commentators tend to dominate discussion for the most part or at least to a disproportionate level considering most irish people have no interest in voting for the SWP or people before profit , add to this , the poverty industry is never off our screens and you have a recipe for spite towards the successfull and people with some get up and go

starbelgrade

cson wrote: »

The big hole I can pick in it, is that by raising it that much you'd bring it so close to the minimum wage as to make it pointless for minimum wagers to work thereby inflatiing the welfare recipients by a huge amount as these just would quit their jobs and claim welfare and I'd say the amount by which it would increase would break the country.

True.. it works in theory, but it wouldn't work in practice unless the minimum wage was a lot higher than dole payment. If the differences between the two were relatively large though, it could well work.

Reillyman

Bandit12 wrote: »

High earners disgust me tbh.

Why? This is what I don't understand.

And please don't reply with the Roddy Molloy, Michael Fingleton, Bankers etc etc. I know these people are bad. What I don't understand is how you are "disgusted" at someone just because they earn alot of money?

smelltheglove

I havent read the thread in its entirity but i would like to add that yes there is begrudgery, I have seen it many times but there is also praise for people earning good money from working hard. I know a few high earners that have worked for every cent they have and have sacrificed a lot too. I wouldnt want my husband working the long long hours some of these do as to be honest I like to enjoy family life, as nice as it would be to have tonnes of money sure whats the point if he cant enjoy it with me most of the time.

The only high earners I would begrudge are the dodgy ones, hiding large parts of their income, claiming supplements etc etc and trust me there are people who earn large amounts and still can con the social, one couple I knew where caught out claiming lone parents when they had 2 houses, a merc and a new jeep, countless nights out and holidays yet the mother still claimed lone parents, her view was sure if I can get it then why not.

This country is full of double standards, jealousy, begrudgery etc etc but the way I see it is if you earnt it fair play to you, I still think though that the high earners havent taken as harsh a cut as those on the poverty line. Lets be honest a €200 a week cut to someone on 250k would be a hell of a lot easier to take than a 10 euro cut on somone who earns 20k.

Warfi

Reillyman wrote: »

So what your saying is that the person who chose to be a national school teacher has every right to be "angry" at the person who chose to do a masters in finance and is now earning lets say €500,000 managing his own hedge fund?

Why do you think school teachers are jealous of high earners? The thread started out with Irish peopls' attitudes, and now suddenly it's Irish teachers who are jealous?
I've worked as a school teacher and I've great respect for anyone who has made it to the top of the ladder. It takes hard graft and determination, with a little luck thrown in.

Reillyman

Warfi wrote: »

Why do you think school teachers are jealous of high earners? The thread started out with Irish peopls' attitudes, and now suddenly it's Irish teachers who are jealous?
I've worked as a school teacher and I've great respect for anyone who has made it to the top of the ladder. It takes hard graft and determination, with a little luck thrown in.

For god's sake, I used that as an example, I obviously don't think that all teachers are angry at hedge-fund managers, come on like.

I just used <insert-mediocre-public-service-job-here> and <insert-high-paid-private-job-here> to illustrate the point made by someone else.

Warfi

Reillyman wrote: »

For god's sake, I used that as an example, I obviously don't think that all teachers are angry at hedge-fund managers, come on like.

I just used <insert-mediocre-public-service-job-here> and <insert-high-paid-private-job-here> to illustrate the point made by someone else.

Ok, just seems that every thread turns into an anti-public service thread sooner or later. Doesn't seem to matter what it starts out as.

By the way, mediocre public service job? Many teachers I know have masters, or are studying for their masters

Reillyman

Warfi wrote: »

Ok, just seems that every thread turns into an anti-public service thread sooner or later. Doesn't seem to matter what it starts out as.

By the way, mediocre public service job? Many teachers I know have masters, or are studying for their masters

I'm not going to be dragged into an argument.

I never said anything about the public sector, I was referring to irish societies attitude in general to high earners.

Warfi

Reillyman wrote: »

I'm not going to be dragged into an argument.

I never said anything about the public sector, I was referring to irish societies attitude in general to high earners.

no worries, I'd just don't appreciate my job being dismissed as being mediocre when I've worked damned hard to be a teacher

starbelgrade

Warfi wrote: »

Ok, just seems that every thread turns into an anti-public service thread sooner or later. Doesn't seem to matter what it starts out as.

By the way, mediocre public service job? Many teachers I know have masters, or are studying for their masters

Oh dear. This is not an anti-public sector thread, but you seem to be doing a fine job of trying to make it one.

Reillyman

Warfi wrote: »

no worries, I'd just don't appreciate my job being dismissed as being mediocre when I've worked damned hard to be a teacher

Yeah I apologise, I didn't mean to say that teaching was a mediocre job, i meant that it was at the average level of the pay scale, eg. a consultant doctor wouldn't be a good example, whereas a nurse or teacher would.

Warfi

starbelgrade wrote: »

Oh dear. This is not an anti-public sector thread, but you seem to be doing a fine job of trying to make it one.

Don't wear yourself out...it's sorted now

starbelgrade

Warfi wrote: »

Don't wear yourself out..

Don't worry dude - I wasn't the one getting my knickers in a twist. Just happy that you've untwisted them & are sufficiently chilled enough that you can tell others who weren't in a panic in the first place, that "everything's OK now, RELAX".