Bruton Couldnt give us an alternative . .

Drumpot

Just watching a taped "primetime" . .

Have to say, I was surprised by Richard Bruton (who I would consider one of the most educated and better T.D's in the Dail) . .

I thought Lenihan waxed the floor with him . .

What was Bruton's response to "what are your alternatives" ? he went on to talk about the fact that there were alternatives (but failed to actually suggest which ones he would prefer!) . .

Then, later on, he talked about the likes of "sick pay" etc . . . Of course it has to be tackled (like the ideas of means testing certain welfare) but Bruton knows (and admitted) that there has to be €4bil in savings now and in the context of THIS budget, that is simply pandering to the masses who will lap it up without questioning its immediate validity. In simple terms and in the short term, sick leave sorted doesnt save us anything, it only means people are working days they are already paid for . .

I also noticed that Bruton didnt suggest where we get the money to implement a stimulus package . .

Before anybody accuses me of being a supporter of FF , I'm not affiliated with any party and would be a floating voter . . . I just call a spade a spade . .

Incidentally I loved how RTE portrayed the cuts . . The message is everybody in the private sector is living it up on the backs of the public servants . . We are all on at least 35k (even though the average wage is 32k!) and their comparisons were very accurate for a majority of the workforce. .

They might aswell of let David Begg present the programme (he nearly got more airtime then our minister for finance) with Miriam O'Callaghan behind him, dancing while spelling his name with Pom Poms . . .

imme

Drumpot wrote: »

J
I thought Lenihan waxed the floor with him . .

I must have been watching a very different version of Primetime so????
I thought Bruton was more comfortable than Lenihan and more authoritative on what is his subject. Lenihan's a lawyer, so can talk for Ireland, he's not an economist/financier etc.
Bruton said his alternative would be to invest in job creation.

Drumpot

imme wrote: »

I must have been watching a very different version of Primetime so????
I thought Bruton was more comfortable than Lenihan and more authoritative on what is his subject. Lenihan's a lawyer, so can talk for Ireland, he's not an economist/financier etc.
Bruton said his alternative would be to invest in job creation.

Without saying where we would get the funds to do so or where he could reduce the pain on anybody with credible alternatives . .

He mentioned the FG plan that doesnt really explain anything . . Im not saying he doesnt have a better alternative, perhaps hes just not good at articulating it! !

And why wouldnt Bruton be more comfortable (again, didnt notice that, thought he looked nervous). As the opposition party he got to throw out a few comments that didnt really offer much in the way of clear alternatives (but sound good to everybody), but got to ridicule what would of been an unpopular budget whoever was implementing it .

But your right . . I imagine many will of seen a differant show to others . . . Incidentally I didn't post this to "breach the peace" like I apparently did so innocently in another forum . .

Its interesting to hear other peoples views on Primetime . .Particularly somebody who didn't feel the need to completely attack my interpretation of the programme . . You see . . We can have differences of opinions and get along . It can be done . .:D

starbelgrade

imme wrote: »

Bruton said his alternative would be to invest in job creation.

But Lenihan is already doing that by funding a few more FAS courses that are essential to the economy due to their high success rates in getting people re-trained & back into full employment.

thebman

Drumpot wrote: »

Without saying where we would get the funds to do so or where he could reduce the pain on anybody with credible alternatives . .

He mentioned the FG plan that doesnt really explain anything . . Im not saying he doesnt have a better alternative, perhaps hes just not good at articulating it! !

And why wouldnt Bruton be more comfortable (again, didnt notice that, thought he looked nervous). As the opposition party he got to throw out a few comments that didnt really offer much in the way of clear alternatives, but got to ridicule what would of been an unpopular budget whoever was implementing it .

But your right . . I imagine many will of seen a differant show to others . . . Incidentally I didn't post this to "breach the peace" like I apparently did so innocently in another forum . .

Its interesting to hear other peoples views on Primetime . .Particularly somebody who didn't feel the need to completely attack my interpretation of the programme . . You see . . We can have differences of opinions and get along . It can be done . .:D

They already gave that information in the run up to the budget. They are supposed to repeat it every 30 seconds in case someone wasn't listening before?

imme

starbelgrade wrote: »

But Lenihan is already doing that by funding a few more FAS courses that are essential to the economy due to their high success rates in getting people re-trained & back into full employment.

oh, be serious:P

P. Breathnach

thebman wrote: »

They already gave that information in the run up to the budget. They are supposed to repeat it every 30 seconds in case someone wasn't listening before?

Did you read their document? I didn't find convincing numbers in it.

Drumpot

thebman wrote: »

They already gave that information in the run up to the budget. They are supposed to repeat it every 30 seconds in case someone wasn't listening before?

No, but when you are face to face in a highly publicised interview with your equivilant opponent in power, I would expect you to be able to at least offer comparable alternatives when you rebuke their budget . . At least give the opposition the chance to query your alternative (but tonite was about populist soundbites). .

Whats the point in having public debates if your not even going to properly discuss your alternatives ?

I would love that in public debates. . "I disagee with you sir . . I refer to my plan that you can read on my website" . .

Always a nice stance the opposition can take without getting criticism from the majority of the population. .

Dannyboy83

I thought both sides had good points.

Lenihan came across better; Bruton did make the point that there is a lack of stimulus/private sector reform. However, private sector reform may be best left to the market in some instances (e.g. consumer demand)
In other cases, I think regulation would be of benefit (e.g. commercial rent legislation, rates)
Stimulus does not seem to be an option at the moment, given the absence of reserves and still high borrowing. The only way to do this is to divert funds from existing expenditure (e.g Fas) which is a bullet nobody seems willing to bite at the moment.

Also, Public sector reform is an integral part of nationwide reform
Courtesy of K-9

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1018498.shtml
Examining the table one would hardly say that Ireland is becoming ultra competitive via wage deflation. There are a number of caveats to this statement and the conclusions which may be drawn from this table.
Firstly, hourly labour costs, in particular unit labour costs (ULCs), are the relevant metric when considering competiveness. ULCs measure the labour cost per unit of output produced. If output rises quicker than hourly labour costs then ULC fall. Total hourly labour costs (excluding redundancy payments) in the Financial sector fell -11.5% y/y in Q2. While we don’t have data on output specifically related to the Financial sector we know that “Other Services” fell -2.8% y/y in Q2. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that ULC have been reduced in the Financial sector
Hourly total labour costs (excluding redundancy payments) in Industry rose by 2.9% y/y in Q2. We know from the national accounts that Industry (excluding construction) output fell by -4.8% y/y. ULCs are based on the level of output per unit of input. The number of inputs, employees multiplied by hours worked, has fallen. In other words, we need to make adjustments to account for productivity gains. While we don’t have data on productivity, we know that Industry employment fell -9.2% y/y in Q2 versus an output fall of -4.8% implying that productivity improved. All-in-all it would suggest that ULCs in Industry are lower as the fall in the number of employees and hours worked outweighs the fall in output and rise in hourly labour costs.

Secondly, as stated earlier this data only refers to 18% of the private sector. A consistent, timely and comparable earnings data set for the Irish economy is badly needed and must be made a priority within the CSO.

Thirdly, without going into in detail again, the public sector wage bill must be reduced. While the public sector unions may point to the fact that weekly wages in Industry are up on a y/y basis, it has to be remembered that the y/y fall in employment in that private sector have become more competitive by becoming leaner (i.e. reducing workforce) and/or cutting pay in order to reduce unit labour costs. The inflated public sector pay bill while creating a fiscal drag is also hampering non-labour competitiveness by increasing the cost of various services provided to firms.

Utilities must certainly be a major consideration here.

I agreed with Bruton's points with regard to the Capital spend reduction and need for investment in infrastructure.
Lenihan countered that tenders have decreased in cost so significantly that targets would still be met at the reduced expenditure.
I checked the NDP/NRA and didn't see any lists of shelved programs, but a quick scan of the media would suggest otherwise.

I would be interested to hear more of what Bruton had to say, PrimeTime is not the greatest platform to say it.
A shame that the wisest politicians always bite their tongue and wait until after the fact to tell us they had the answers all along.;)

Private sector reform is a topic I would like to discuss more, but there is a lack of appetite to discuss it at the moment. Perhaps we'll try again next week. People need to express rage first.

omahaid

Hi OP, I saw the same program as you. RTE's coverage seemed very biased. Even the guy from KPMG tried to get across the point that the private sector worker may have lost a lot of wages over the last 18 months so the fact that the private sector worker didn't lose much in yesterdays budget is of scant comfort.

The irony that it would be an ex private sector worker on the dole when they were discussing how much they would lose seemed lost on Miriam.

harsea8

I too thought it was unbelievably biased. Couldn't believe it when they were supposed to be comparing like with like examples (as much as you can between public and private sector) and suddenly the private sector worker in their example had a old house and was about to lose his TRS, lo and behold, he/she would be up after the budget (because they have now extended TRS beyond 7 years, so he/she wouldn't lose it). However there had been no mention of TRS for the previous, and supposedly analogous, example of a public sector worker......apples vs oranges me thinks and not exactly a useful contribution to a reasonable debate about the "fairness" of the budget

voxpop

harsea8 wrote: »

I too thought it was unbelievably biased. Couldn't believe it when they were supposed to be comparing like with like examples (as much as you can between public and private sector) and suddenly the private sector worker in their example had a old house and was about to lose his TRS, lo and behold, he/she would be up after the budget (because they have now extended TRS beyond 7 years, so he/she wouldn't lose it). However there had been no mention of TRS for the previous, and supposedly analogous, example of a public sector worker......apples vs oranges me thinks and not exactly a useful contribution to a reasonable debate about the "fairness" of the budget

Agree there - it really did seem biased when comparing the public and private sectors after the budget - the last section really took the biscuit

Public sector on 100k loses 10k after budget
Private sector worker get interest relief on mortgage and ends up better off after the budget!

It seems that only private sector workers earning 100k+ get mortgage interest relief - strange one.