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Will the Govt return to the Public Sector?

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    #32
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,196 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    As far as I know, that's the plan. Because savings are needed immediately, the immediate Government action has been to cut PS pay, but in the slightly longer term it's preferred that savings come through structural reform.

    However, haven't the unions said that because of the pay cuts, they'll block structural reform? In that case, presumably, the next round of savings would also have to come from pay cuts...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    Good point the moratorium is in place for 4 years, most temporary contract staff will be let go unfortunately, and they will decimate staff in the semi state through cutting their funding, big savings to be made there. Also expect tax reform with a widening of the tax net in the next budget. Water tax and property tax will be introduced over next two years and Gov will also be hoping for economic growth within that period. If we could get the live register down that would help no end. Alot of this strategy is based on hope rather than anything else, lets all cross our fingers that it will work out.


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    #33
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    To set it in context, we borrowed this year 20 billion to pay the day-to-day bills of the State. After 4 billion in cuts (presuming they actually get implemented in full), then we'll still need to borrow 16 billion next year AND, as a result of the increased national debt, we'll need to "find" an additional 2 billion to pay the additional interest on the national debt from this year.

    In terms of size of expenditure, the state spends its money on: i) Social Welfare, ii) PS pay & pensions, and, iii) everything else.

    Now try and figure out where next year's cuts are going to come from.

    To my mind, ultimately, to get the state's finances back on track, it'll boil down to pay cuts AND compulsory lay-offs.


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    #34
    Liam79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 463 ✭✭Liam79


    With regard to my original question, was listening to the radio there over lunch and they had Dermot Ahern on and he stated categorically there will be absolutely no further pay cuts to public service salaries in future budgets.


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    #35
    gazzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,049 ✭✭✭gazzer


    One thing I am wondering about yesterdays pay cuts for PS workers is that Is this a breach of contract? I took a pay cut yesterday and even though I naturally dont want my wages to go down I accept it had to. However if the pay conditions as per my contract have been changed what is to say that in the next budget the government wont turn around and tell all PS workers that their pension entitlements are going to change etc.


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    #36
    Rujib1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Rujib1


    Liam79 wrote: »
    Both Lenihan and Hanafin have both said explicity this morning they will NOT be touching public service pay anymore. Read my lips kinda stuff. :rolleyes:

    Government has to plough ahead with the cutting of public spending.
    Unions need an honourable excuse for not marching up and down the streets in wet and windy January.

    So, between government and the beards, they will find some form of words to get back around the table.
    This time, the beards will have to come up with a more acceptable strategy to stave off another pay cut other than 12 days on the beach.
    Reform and get away with no pay cut!
    No reform and get another pay cut of 8%.

    Simple maths on the one hand, and the reality that very many public service employees, haven't the stomach for strikes the general public are not going to support such strikes.


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    #37
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Liam79 wrote: »
    Both Lenihan and Hanafin have both said explicity this morning they will NOT be touching public service pay anymore. Read my lips kinda stuff. :rolleyes:

    I must have heard a different interview. In the one I heard, Hanafin said that the way Public Servants could avoid further cuts was to deliver savings through reforms.


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    #38
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    However, haven't the unions said that because of the pay cuts, they'll block structural reform? In that case, presumably, the next round of savings would also have to come from pay cuts...

    That was the implication I took from Hannifin's interview on Radio1 this morning.


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    #39
    seangal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    Liam79 wrote: »
    Both Lenihan and Hanafin have both said explicity this morning they will NOT be touching public service pay anymore. Read my lips kinda stuff. :rolleyes:

    No they won’t be back if they get some form of reform
    But they will be back for tax hikes next year from all workers
    But one thing for sure the private sector will now be hit for a wage cut and the minimum wage is also going to get it


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    #40
    seangal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    frman wrote: »
    Did they happen to mention where the savings would come from ?
    Tax Tax Tax and reduced public services bought about by reform in the public sector by not replacing staff.


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    #41
    seangal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    tunney wrote: »
    Given you seem to be firmly living in lala land - you believe what you want.

    There will be significant cuts in the size of the PS.
    There will be reductions in pensions.
    There will be reductions in pay.

    We cannot afford the PS.

    But in LaLa land I'm sure its its different
    yes and in La la land if they Piss off public sector much more people will be left to die on the street and that is where out public service are going so my advise is if you cant afford the PS today look after you health and put a better alarm on you house


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    #42
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    We've added 85,000 public servants to the payroll over the course of the past decade.

    If we could get by with 85,000 fewer public servants in 2000, without the state descending into anarchy, why can't we get by with 85,000 fewer public servants in 2010?

    We need to identify exactly where these extra staff are and what they are doing. Some sectors expanded, some didn't. Some achieved something with the increase, some didn't.

    There has been much talk of the need to reduce public spending back to 2005 levels or whatever, but very little information on what the increases since 2005 were and what they were designed to achieve.


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    #43
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,830 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    seangal wrote: »
    No they won’t be back if they get some form of reform
    But they will be back for tax hikes next year from all workers
    But one thing for sure the private sector will now be hit for a wage cut and the minimum wage is also going to get it

    Indeed they are IBEC are delighted this will further reduce the cost of living in ireland and further justify reducing wages.

    A group I hear lauding of here when they say somethign bad about the public sector is the OECD and when they studied this country they recommended getting more women into employment in this country, but why?

    A strange things to claim most would reckon but not if you look at from a business point of view. When more women are employed in any sector it has one charactaristic and that is to drive down the overall wage of that sector


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    #44
    seangal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    Rujib1 wrote: »
    Government has to plough ahead with the cutting of public spending.
    Unions need an honourable excuse for not marching up and down the streets in wet and windy January.

    So, between government and the beards, they will find some form of words to get back around the table.
    This time, the beards will have to come up with a more acceptable strategy to stave off another pay cut other than 12 days on the beach.
    Reform and get away with no pay cut!
    No reform and get another pay cut of 8%.

    Simple maths on the one hand, and the reality that very many public service employees, haven't the stomach for strikes the general public are not going to support such strikes.
    There will be no offer on the table
    I am off sick tomorrow for the first day in about 3 year due to this paycut and it will save me €30 in childcare and i would advice all PS staff to do the same before they change the sick leave policy.
    They reform they are looking for will deliver saving of billions but they wont blackmail the workers in to doing it.
    Where i work we have had reform but today we had a union meeting and we are now going on a work to rule which will cause us to go back to the 2003 working terms and condition and remove all the change that was delivered.


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    #45
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I don't think individual public servants can realistically be expected to take another pay cut next December (unless there's a significant contraction in the economy between now and then). That's not to say however that widescale reform still isn't needed in the public sector.


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    #46
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    seangal wrote: »
    There will be no offer on the table
    I am off sick tomorrow for the first day in about 3 year due to this paycut and it will save me €30 in childcare and i would advice all PS staff to do the same before they change the sick leave policy.
    They reform they are looking for will deliver saving of billions but they wont blackmail the workers in to doing it.
    Where i work we have had reform but today we had a union meeting and we are now going on a work to rule which will cause us to go back to the 2003 working terms and condition and remove all the change that was delivered.

    Ahh, well done.

    This is the type of thing that gives ammunition to those of us in the private sector. we've all read the reports about sick leave in the PS. your only backing up these things by coming out with that sort of statement.


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    #47
    seangal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    Stark wrote: »
    I don't think individual public servants can realistically be expected to take another pay cut next December (unless there's a significant contraction in the economy between now and then). That's not to say however that widescale reform still isn't needed in the public sector.
    But you need carrot and stick to get reform and they is not a lot of carrot about now or for the next 3 year


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    #48
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    seangal wrote: »
    There will be no offer on the table
    I am off sick tomorrow for the first day in about 3 year due to this paycut and it will save me €30 in childcare and i would advice all PS staff to do the same before they change the sick leave policy.
    They reform they are looking for will deliver saving of billions but they wont blackmail the workers in to doing it.
    Where i work we have had reform but today we had a union meeting and we are now going on a work to rule which will cause us to go back to the 2003 working terms and condition and remove all the change that was delivered.

    Strangley, if a private sector worker gets a pay cut, they don't automatically take days off sick to make up for it - as there are consequences. But you go ahead - you'll probably get your automatic increment anyway....

    The Public Service is going to have to have reform to get the savings next year and I suspect the large discrepancies between public and private sick leave will be one focus.


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    #49
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    seangal wrote: »
    But you need carrot and stick to get reform and they is not a lot of carrot about now or for the next 3 year

    Well the last carrot was benchmarking and that was a huge mistake. Next time round it needs to be performance targets first, increases and bonuses later.


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    #50
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    seangal wrote: »
    yes and in La la land if they Piss off public sector much more people will be left to die on the street and that is where out public service are going so my advise is if you cant afford the PS today look after you health and put a better alarm on you house

    We can't afford the PS today. End of. There will be more cuts, the PS workers will have a choice - emmigrate, work for less, quit.

    If the PS acted in the fashion you describe there would be a huge market for private health providers and private security.


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    #51
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    seangal wrote: »
    There will be no offer on the table
    I am off sick tomorrow for the first day in about 3 year due to this paycut and it will save me €30 in childcare and i would advice all PS staff to do the same before they change the sick leave policy.
    They reform they are looking for will deliver saving of billions but they wont blackmail the workers in to doing it.
    Where i work we have had reform but today we had a union meeting and we are now going on a work to rule which will cause us to go back to the 2003 working terms and condition and remove all the change that was delivered.

    A justification of the PS stereotype.


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    #52
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    seangal wrote: »
    But you need carrot and stick to get reform and they is not a lot of carrot about now or for the next 3 year

    You've had your carrot, and your sugar cube and still done nothing.
    A severe beating with the stick and maybe a trip to the knackers yard?


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    #53
    reverandkenjami
    Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭reverandkenjami


    seangal wrote: »
    But one thing for sure the private sector will now be hit for a wage cut and the minimum wage is also going to get it

    The vast majoirity of private sector workers have already taken substantial paycuts!
    seangal wrote: »
    There will be no offer on the table
    I am off sick tomorrow for the first day in about 3 year due to this paycut and it will save me €30 in childcare and i would advice all PS staff to do the same before they change the sick leave policy.
    They reform they are looking for will deliver saving of billions but they wont blackmail the workers in to doing it.
    Where i work we have had reform but today we had a union meeting and we are now going on a work to rule which will cause us to go back to the 2003 working terms and condition and remove all the change that was delivered.

    And you wonder why there's so much ps bashing :rolleyes:


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